Obama's Inauguration /Good Riddance "W"

[abyssofdreams]

I will only say something to those two points, because I feel you misunderstood me here:

second, equating gun ownership in any context whatsoever, even mentioning it in the same sentence... with the inference being that it is equivalent in any way... with child pornography or drug use is ludicrous, spurious, and disingenuous.

People who think they have a right to own a gun or think they should own one in general are, for me, somewhat mentally disoriented or unstable for that matter. So are pedophiles (im not talking about genetic defects here), so are people who believe in invisible skygods. Basically any (large) group of persons who do not (want to) live alongside our sane modern moral standards. Again, I'm not claiming it is a scientific fact that these people are all mentally ill (though I'm sure there's plenty of psychological theories on that) but it is my own personal opinion. This is what they all have in common, just on different levels of impact. Of course, just owning guns doesn't make you a killer but just feeling attracted to childs doesn't make you a child molester also. Pedophiles aren't child molesters per default, so is not the average gun owner a killer or "crime supporter" but basically IMHO they are all mentally ill.

i'm a pacifist myself really, i hate fighting of any sort. war sickens me. crime sickens me too, making me doubly determined to never be it's helpless victim.

wft? from my p.o.v. you cannot call yourself a pacifist if you own a gun at the same time, that's completely irrational.

and last but not least. owning a gun should not be a right. it is not a right of freedom I am violating when I do not want you to have a right to own a gun but it is you who violates the freedom of others when you put yourself on a higher power stage and running around self-justifying the actions when it comes down to it (which it could at any time!).

I am sorry, I realize I cannot reach common ground with people who disagree with me on this issue but at least I seem to get a better picture where your positions are coming from.

 

[abyssofdreams]

NO! Bad Bernhard, no stereotypes!

No? Alright, you challenge me and set a good example that this stereotype is for the birds

 

[Metaltastic]

Ok - me

 

[abyssofdreams]

This.

I'm not pro-gun because I like violence. I'm pro-gun because I alone can protect myself from violence.

Jeff

That's fighting fire with fire again. And it is just "helping" you as an individual. That's pretty shortsighted. Why didn't you invest the money you had for your gun in programs that help to undermine crime factors in general?

For example invest into local education (lacking education can lead to poverty which can lead to crime, just to give an example)

Of course that would be a much more indirect method and the impact of your own investment would be very hard to trace in detail but if every pro-gun person would think this way I'm sure you would have far less crime and shit in the long run whereas owning a gun includes a LOT of risks and side effects (gun can get into the wrong hands, children could find the gun etc.)

And tell me what you want, a person who owns a gun is far more likely to use it against other people than a person who doesn't (own a gun and use violence against others...). I don't believe anybody who owns a gun and tells me that this wouldn't make it more probable.

 

[J.DavisNJ]

That's fighting fire with fire again. And it is just "helping" you as an individual. That's pretty shortsighted. Why didn't you invest the money you had for your gun in programs that help to undermine crime factors in general?

For example invest into local education (lacking education can lead to poverty which can lead to crime, just to give an example)

Of course that would be a much more indirect method and the impact of your own investment would be very hard to trace in detail but if every pro-gun person would think this way I'm sure you would have far less crime and shit in the long run whereas owning a gun includes a LOT of risks and side effects (gun can get into the wrong hands, children could find the gun etc.)

And tell me what you want, a person who owns a gun is far more likely to use it against other people than a person who doesn't (own a gun and use violence against others...). I don't believe anybody who owns a gun and tells me that this wouldn't make it more probable.

Just had to get this last point in...

I suppose you CAN say that one who owns a gun is more likely to use it against others, but that's quite a retarded concept in my opinion. Mostgun owners will never, ever use it against another person. Your point might hold water if we are talking pure probability, but it's like saying a person who drives a car is more likely to crash into a telephone pole than one who doesn't own a car.

Quite obvious yes.

Know what I'm sayin' dude?

For the record, I respect your decision to be a pacifist, I just think some of your views are not realistic. At least not in this lifetime. No offense!

-Joe

 

[abyssofdreams]

I just think some of your views are not realistic. At least not in this lifetime.

I don't think this way. I have ideals. And I will fight for them. I'm not giving up because it seems unrealistic.

Let's be realistic and try the impossible! (Che Guevara)

 

[PetyaVenikov]

I don't think shooting someone is a solution to crime, thats daft. When you shoot them you have no idea of their motives or past. You can't decide whether someones life isn't worth anything because you simply have no idea. People don't commit crime because they are crazy and just love to kill and cause harm, they want something, if you deny that you are deluded. Yes there are plenty of exceptions to this, but the main reason for crime is money and revenge.

There are more motives for crime than just the desire to cause harm. People can be pushed into it. Its like arguing that all prostitutes choose to be prostitutes and that they could get a job if they didnt. They can't, and some people are forced into crime and left with no way out, they don't deserve to die because they don't have the choice of anything else.

Joe

you're missing the point here. their 'motives' or past are irrelevant. there is no rationale to forgiving someone attempting to harm you or take what you rightfully earned, based on degrees of "harshness" of their past or motives. they are making a choice to take something that is not theirs - you either submit to giving them what you earned at the additional risk of getting hurt/or killed, or you defend yourself by any means you have available to you - it is not a question of social morality, it is a question of individual worth. if you feel comfortable giving away something you have rightfully earned to a stranger at the additional risk of getting injured/killed, it is completely your personal will.

as far as 'motives' for crimes themselves - those are not under question here - as you are arguing self-defense legislation and/or gun law. Sure, people become criminals for various reasons, but ultimately they choose to conform to social norms or not. That is a responsibility they accept when they become criminals. They are more likely to die/ be put in jail/etc because they are choosing to commit an unlawful act.

 

[J.DavisNJ]

I don't think this way. I have ideals. And I will fight for them. I'm not giving up because it seems unrealistic.

Like we both said, it's clear we have drastically different views of the subject...so I'm just gonna stop commenting now and leave it as is.

Cheers!

-Joe

 

[James Murphy]

I will only say something to those two points, because I feel you misunderstood me here:



People who think they have a right to own a gun or think they should own one in general are, for me, somewhat mentally disoriented or unstable for that matter. So are pedophiles (im not talking about genetic defects here), so are people who believe in invisible skygods. Basically any (large) group of persons who do not (want to) live alongside our sane modern moral standards. Again, I'm not claiming it is a scientific fact that these people are all mentally ill (though I'm sure there's plenty of psychological theories on that) but it is my own personal opinion. This is what they all have in common, just on different levels of impact. Of course, just owning guns doesn't make you a killer but just feeling attracted to childs doesn't make you a child molester also. Pedophiles aren't child molesters per default, so is not the average gun owner a killer or "crime supporter" but basically IMHO they are all mentally ill.




wft? from my p.o.v. you cannot call yourself a pacifist if you own a gun at the same time, that's completely irrational.

and last but not least. owning a gun should not be a right. it is not a right of freedom I am violating when I do not want you to have a right to own a gun but it is you who violates the freedom of others when you put yourself on a higher power stage and running around self-justifying the actions when it comes down to it (which it could at any time!).

I am sorry, I realize I cannot reach common ground with people who disagree with me on this issue but at least I seem to get a better picture where your positions are coming from.

so let me get this straight, in your estimation a pacifist is someone that is not just against violence, but is also someone who will NOT defend themselves, and will rather just stand and allow his family and himself to be slaughtered? and if he stands up for himself and fights fire with fire, thus saving his life and potentially his family's lives as well then he's not actually a hero, but rather mentally unstable and disoriented?? right. so i supoose that day in 1990 i should have asked the guys to wait while i quickly donated some money to some programs to educate kids against violence?? or maybe just allowed myself to be beaten and my girlfriend and her friend to be raped? if that's what a pacifist does then maybe i'm not one then, but i am at the very least a conscientious objector regarding violence.

but yeah, we are NEVER going to agree on this issue.

i am a conscientious objector then because i prefer not to fight, i prefer not to be violent, i prefer to not seek out physical conflict of any sort.

i am a man because i accept the responsibility to protect my self and my family if the situation calls for it and will not lie down and allow harm to come to me or mine simply because i don't prefer violence over other options.

i honestly hope that neither of us ever has to be put in such a position, but i know who's family i'd ratter be in if we were.

give me a failed pacifist over a dead father/brother/son/etc. any day of the week.

change the world man, i'm rooting for you, truly... and i will gladly donate to a good cause promoting civic responsibility and non-violence... and in the meantime i'll have fun target shooting once a month or so, and likely never have to raise a weapon in defense in my life again... but just in case, i'm prepared to do so if i have to.

 

[spioraid]

James, that hammerless .357 is spot on, but not fun to shoot. My uncle has one and I've fired it a few times but I got a serious headache afterwords and could feel every shot echo through my chest and head.

 

[abyssofdreams]

so let me get this straight, in your estimation a pacifist is someone that is not just against violence, but is also someone who will NOT defend themselves, and will rather just stand and allow his family and himself to be slaughtered? and if he stands up for himself and fights fire with fire, thus saving his life and potentially his family's lives as well then he's not actually a hero, but rather mentally unstable and disoriented?? right. so i supoose that day in 1990 i should have asked the guys to wait while i quickly donated some money to some programs to educate kids against violence?? or maybe just allowed myself to be beaten and my girlfriend and her friend to be raped? if that's what a pacifist does then maybe i'm not one then, but i am at the very least a conscientious objector regarding violence.

but yeah, we are NEVER going to agree on this issue.

i am a conscientious objector then because i prefer not to fight, i prefer not to be violent, i prefer not seek out physical conflict of any sort.

i am a man because i accept the responsibility to protect my self and my family if the situation calls for it and will not lie down and allow harm to come to me or mine simply because i don't prefer violence over other options.

i honestly hope that neither of us ever has to be put in such a position, but i know who's family i'd ratter be in if we were.

give me a failed pacifist over a dead father/brother/son/etc. any day of the week.

change the world man, i'm rooting for you, truly... and i will gladly donate to a good cause promoting civic responsibility and non-violence... and in the meantime i'll have fun target shooting once a month or so, and likely never have to raise a weapon in defense in my life again... but just in case, i'm prepared to do so if i have to.

I perfectly understand what you say, James.
Let me be more specific and less abstract:

Everything you described (besides the target shooting part which isn't really bothering me at all anyways) is a reaction to violence and crime.

Of course if I would stand here and I'd have to defend my family and there would be no other choice I would be violent too because of protecting them from those who attack. That is when we talk about our current social circumstances. But we need to progress.

Peace only works if both sides are peaceful. You'll agree with me here.
If there wouldn't be any attackers, there wouldn't be a need for defenders.
But if both sides keep their course, nothing will change.

And that defense argument is just one part of the whole gun issue.
It has to start somewhere and maybe those defenders would be the very last target to aim at when we think about removing guns as a whole.

The model "less guns" works in Europe. That is not a theory, it is a fact.
I have to hold the position of "no guns" because otherwise I would be inconsequent in my thinking.

To say that it won't work in America I don't believe in. It is a long, rocky road to go but I do believe it is possible. I could bring up a whole lot of facts that support my argument but please don't let me have to do so.

It is rooted in your mentality and maybe I was a little harsh saying that you are mentally ill but let's say it is a misguided thought to believe that you need a gun in order to keep a balance between justice and crime/violence.

I am not saying you should stay there and watch people slay each other but step in between and change shit. If you get into a position where you have to defend yourself in order to protect and/or defend others behind you then of course I am the last one to say that you shouldn't do anything about it. But hey, in Western Europe people think more considerate and global and it is about time that America adopts this attitude!

No normal thinking person (except for some maniacs) in this country can understand the American mentality regarding its "gun-love" and defensive position about it. We can't all be delusional, idealistic pacifists, now can we?

 

[RockGuitarX]

I guess some people just like criminals more than the average good citizen.

WAIT I just had an inspiration from Rusted Root that we should just all get rid of our defense weapons and listen to this song.



Why didn't I think of it the first place? If you would all just donate to my paypal account we could end crime and violence right now. Then after everyone gathers hands and sings more Rusted Root, I'll work on another project to end world hunger. It's simple, just take away people's rights, put them in camps with no guns or ANYTHING that can be used as a weapon and smoke lots of ganja.

 

[abyssofdreams]

I guess some people just like criminals more than the average good citizen.

WAIT I just had an inspiration from Rusted Root that we should just all get rid of our defense weapons and listen to this song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDdokE1rAMw

Why didn't I think of it the first place? If you would all just donate to my paypal account we could end crime and violence right now. Then after everyone gathers hands and sings more Rusted Root, I'll work on another project to end world hunger. It's simple, just take away people's rights, put them in camps with no guns or ANYTHING that can be used as a weapon and smoke lots of ganja.

Wow. You leave me speechless. I really hope you're not representing the opinion of the majority in your state/country...
And besides... your sarcasm lacks wit.

 

[RockGuitarX]

Dude WTF? I'm serious. Don't fuckin judge me and stop defending yourself it's wrong.

 

[Metaltastic]

I just don't see how buying a pistol and carrying it on you encourages violence if you only ever use it for defense (which could very possibly be never)

 

[abyssofdreams]

Dude WTF? I'm serious. Don't fuckin judge me and stop defending yourself it's wrong.

Is that an order? Sorry, I won't follow.
I judge you based on anything you say here just like you do with me.
And the picture I have of you isn't getting any better with your useless remarks, trust me on this one.

Is it wrong to defend myself? Are you sure you are serious?
Please elaborate.

 

[JBroll]

I will only say something to those two points, because I feel you misunderstood me here:



People who think they have a right to own a gun or think they should own one in general are, for me, somewhat mentally disoriented or unstable for that matter. So are pedophiles (im not talking about genetic defects here), so are people who believe in invisible skygods. Basically any (large) group of persons who do not (want to) live alongside our sane modern moral standards. Again, I'm not claiming it is a scientific fact that these people are all mentally ill (though I'm sure there's plenty of psychological theories on that) but it is my own personal opinion. This is what they all have in common, just on different levels of impact. Of course, just owning guns doesn't make you a killer but just feeling attracted to childs doesn't make you a child molester also. Pedophiles aren't child molesters per default, so is not the average gun owner a killer or "crime supporter" but basically IMHO they are all mentally ill.




wft? from my p.o.v. you cannot call yourself a pacifist if you own a gun at the same time, that's completely irrational.

and last but not least. owning a gun should not be a right. it is not a right of freedom I am violating when I do not want you to have a right to own a gun but it is you who violates the freedom of others when you put yourself on a higher power stage and running around self-justifying the actions when it comes down to it (which it could at any time!).

I am sorry, I realize I cannot reach common ground with people who disagree with me on this issue but at least I seem to get a better picture where your positions are coming from.

I guess we disagree on rights - I think that rights, inherent to people as a result of being capable of moral judgment, include everything that doesn't require coercion.

Also, I find it absofuckinglutely hilarious that you're quoting Che Guevara while claiming that you're more of a pacifist than anyone who owns a gun. Gun ownership doesn't violate pacifism any more than knowing how to build nuclear arms violates anti-nuke treaties, and blaming guns for murder is not only illogical but downright irresponsible.

Jeff

 

[abyssofdreams]

You know what, in order to keep it calm on these boards I'll refrain from posting on this thread anymore.
I feel like tilting at windmills. I don't want anybody to feel uncomfy because of my views.
You feel I am wrong, I feel you are wrong. I'll retreat from this thread for the sole purpose of keeping the nice behaviour I got to know on these boards.

And I was quoting Che Guevara because of what he said in this quote, not because of him being the person he was.
I get the impression you get me wrong on purpose.

 

[JBroll]

I'm not uncomfortable or hostile (well, any more than I'd be uncomfortable around anyone else aiming to restrict my abilities), have one on me. I also don't get you wrong on purpose, I'd just love to bring Che Guevara back to life so that I can make him see what kind of idiots buy shirts with his picture to look cool for their frat parties.

Jeff

 

[Metaltastic]

:danceboy: