Official Off Topic Thread

[Kenneth R.]

Kim's going to die of old age before he does any harm outside his country. You sound like you'd want another war, in the far east.

I don't know if you've paid attention recently, but the economy is improving. I'd say Obama's plans are showing promise, after cleaning up the garbage Bush left.

 

[J-Dubya 777]

My point is the continued, well-proven ineptness of the UN. And Obama continues to pander to the internationals while ripping apart our country from the inside out. Kim just scored a major victory in snubbing his nose at the US and the international community as a whole. Together with Iran, Syria, and Pakistan, he'll work to get his hands on what he needs to make a much bigger statement, with the UN blocked by China and Russia. Not at all a pretty picture here. Japan and South Korea could be in a world of trouble, and I really hope out current president stands behind his nation's proven allies more than he stands behind his own people.

Plus fucking ONE!

Kim's going to die of old age before he does any harm outside his country. You sound like you'd want another war, in the far east.

I don't know if you've paid attention recently, but the economy is improving. I'd say Obama's plans are showing promise, after cleaning up the garbage Bush left.

Wishful thinking...I don't think he's stating he wants another war, he's just bitching about the ineffective paper tiger that the UN has become over the years. One of the worst, corrupt, orginizations on this planet. It's so blatanly obvious to even those who are in-lust with our new leader, that they weild no power over anybody, they haven't agreed on sanctions or anything since the last missle test, and the last nuke test before it. The US should bail out of the UN. Period.

As for the economy improving, where are you seeing that? Unemployment rises every month, our banking system is still fucked, people aren't seeing any of the money the stimulus was supposed to eventually help out. Just today I heard that we won't begin to level out after hitting rock bottom until sometime in 2010-2011. Unemployment is projected to be at, or over 10% by then. This isn't from tinfoil hat wearing sources either. If I had to make a call right now, Obama is a one and done insignifigant president. I'd love to see him prove me wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.

Am I the only one who is sick & tired of hearing how everything is the past administrations fault? Man the fuck up, and deliver on at least SOME of your campaign promises. Don't lead your lemmings to the sea....

 

[Kenneth R.]

The UN isn't supposed to wield "power". It's supposed to be a forum of international dialogue, not an international army to twist the arms of perceived tyrants. Sure, they have a peace keeping force. Peace keeping. =\ If the US leaves the United Nations, I will change my citizenship. That's a dead on promise. The day we stop talking to the world is the day we give ourselves that handjob of ego stroking that leads down the road to nationalist ignorance. Bush went there, and we're feeling the fallout. Let's not make the same mistake again?

1. Banking is still fucked because it takes a shitload of money to clean up the shitload left by the previously mentioned poor choices. War is expensive, pissing off all the other countries is expensive (no trade!), and massaging the corporate elite is expensive. Consumerism is expensive. There's a motherload of garbage to take care of.
2. Unemployment is rising. I won't deny that. It also is true that oceans retain their heat into the late fall months. Just because the situation is improving does not mean you'll see drastic effects just yet. 2010-2011 sounds right to me. But that's given a turnaround Now.
3. So far, Obama's covered most of his campaign promises. Whether or not those were promises that pleased you are another issue altogether. He's not a miracle worker and he isn't the greatest president of all time, but he's doing a hell of a lot better financially, administratively, and politically than Bush, and that's without question even among supporters.

Anyone who expected the freight train of corrupt corporate choices and misgovernment to stop on a dime should recheck some basic physics.

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

David's video of Fallen inspired me to post the video I recorded a while ago of myself playing "the" beat from Divine Wings. Enjoy!



P.S. I'm aware that it's played at a faster tempo than the actual song (mainly because of my timing suckage)

 

[razoredge]

Where we are today may have started with Eisenhower, building the interstates for military deployment. Was the first step in the wrong direction for transport and transit. We have after all became a country whos economy was based on massive independent oil consumsion, unnecessary travel, unnecessary shipping and began the undermining of local economies and industries, the simple life was soon to be over. trade agreements, military spending

Where we are today may have started with Kennedy, involvement in Vietnam, the space program, there was one fucking expensive act of tourism... so we walked on the fucking moon... thats money we will never get back. trade agreements, military spending

Where we are today may have started with Nixon, turning the National Guard against its own people, destroying patriotism for generations to come. Trade agreements, military spending

Where we are today may have started with Carter, opening up our social security funds to non contributing immigrants. Trade agreements, military spending

Where we are today may have started with Regan, deregulation, the king of false economy and blind optimism. trade agreements, military spending

Where we are today may have started with Bush, apparently he felt his lips were the only ones that needed to be read but the problem is everything that has come true today even simple common people were predicting long before his peer even took office... I'd say they were the lips to be reading.

Where we are today may have started with Clinton........... fucking yuppie social climbers in the white house ?....... "come on.... take the money and run... woo hoo hoo" a stage set up perfectly by the previous 12 years of adminstration. Trade agreements, realestate speculation, banking, rapidly inflating insurance and health care wealth

Where we are today may have started with the little dough boy, there sure was alot of money to be made by oil trading, realestate speculation, banking, more inflated insurance and health care wealth.... all five of which are the primary reasons any common person that had a "job" (indentured servant to the wealthy is more like it).... no longer has any money. We can look back through decades of administrations and see how all these primary problems came to be.

There has obviously been more mistakes and waste as well as positives or what seemed like necessary future advancement in some of what I mentioned but none of that changes where we are at the end of the day. Welcome to the third world, we opened the doors with "loving" arms and the third world is what we got....... bravo !

Speaking of long range missiles.... does anybody know where I can buy.... wait.... steal some ?

 

[ABQShredHead]

Ken, if we use physics to cure financial ills, we'll be in worse trouble than we are now.

Not in any way worshipping Bush, but one thing to point out as clear truth: Bush took us from Clinton's recession to the most profitable time in the country's history. Then power shifted in Congress for the last two years of Bush's administration, and the economy slowly tanked. Many are to blame, not just Congress (though I personally hold them most responsible) and Bush (who is accountable). Greenspan said it himself - he could not imagine the greed of a few overwhelming the system as it did.

But I'm with JDub here - where is the economy improving, Ken? China?

A good quickie on history, razor, but I think we need more military spending. Obama cut spending this week to the tune of 90,000 more jobs to be lost at Lockheed Martin alone. We cannot sit idly by and let our military might stagnate while the rest of the world catches up. Dropping missile defense from Alaska when the North Koreans just tested a missile that will reach Alaska? Why put our own oil fields and reserves at such risk? Military spending is what has allowed this country to grow in technology, job creation, and strength. Now we want to be just like the rest of the world, apparently. Or worse, in some meager attempt to make up for our "arrogance"? Bullshit. We are America, and I am damn proud of where my country came from. Why close the shutters on our own history rather than speak the truth about what happened and learn from it? And why should the leader of the free world bow to a monarch, anywhere???????? WTF????

 

[razoredge]

I said (implied) there was good reasons (and results) for some of what was done. However more practical foresight would have done good. So now our military, government employees are feeling the effects our slack governemnt allowed to happen in the private sector, sure not good but Im not trying to tell anyone that.... HOWEVER ! We had a government and corporate circle that was telling the private sector our losses were for the best in the end "we would soon see".... again BRAVFUCKINO

My best economy happened during the Clinton era, as did anyone remotely supplying the housing boom... the last remaining stand of aMerican productivity... as we sold off our assets. So your eluding me on the "Clinton recession"

Regardless my point was hundreds of mistakes have been made by our "leaders" for decades, regardless the color of their uniform (mask)

 

[ABQShredHead]

Clinton benefitted from the dot-com boom. The GDP dropped dramatically from consistent growth during Clinton's administration to 0 growth in 3Q'00, still under Clinton's administration. In fact, I recall talking to financial savvy people I work with that the downturn was so bad it cost the Dems the election. At that point, I didn't really know what they were talking about, but now I have a better understanding of how the finance stuff works. The Reserve lowered the interest rate in an emergency move 1/3/01 - still under Clinton - and unemployment was at 3.8% in April, 2000.

 

[razoredge]

Wasnt part of the big globalization move done during the 90's ? Thus explaining low GNP, (not sure what GDP is) and any unemployment. Regardless the housing boom is what kept employment for many DMF's and some built darn good businesses. Not that I supported that kind of boom or development, booms cant be sustained and should be avoided because of the fallout. I guess they have predictions nearing 10% for UE come the next year or so, myself I'd reach back through many decades to find the many causes of this but Bush solely focusing on his one target sure didnt help.

 

[Kenneth R.]

It's this "leader of the free world" bullshit that makes me want to become Canadian, Ugandan, or Martian. We are a country, not a religion. Or are we?

 

[razoredge]

It's this "leader of the free world" bullshit that makes me want to become Canadian, Ugandan, or Martian. We are a country, not a religion. Or are we?

Maybe is how the saying is interpreted, we are certanly no leaders anymo but wouldnt it be hard to deny that we did lead the world into a more free lifestyle ? At least those that came along. Not that Im saying all this "freedom" was just. I dont understand how that simple saying could have any impact on.... anything. Its only laughable today at its best but at one time was fact. You cant hate all history, things could have turned out much worse.

 

[Kenneth R.]

The thing is Steve, I love history. And that's why I'm so disappointed. Not in our current administration, but the people. Pessimism has become the status quo. Blame the government for everything. =\

 

[J-Dubya 777]

Blame the government for everything. =

While we may disagree on the current administration, and the status of the economy, I do agree with you on this. There's a lot more to blame the current situation on than just "the government"

 

[razoredge]

Sorry, not me, "serve and protect", they clearly have not, too busy gobbin knob with the hob nobs, I look to the source.

Pessimism, statis quo ? I dont know if you talking about views of what this presidency can do or the future for all correctly born Americans but I find no optimism for those like me, well we'll probably be able to finish life, donating all of what we work for to the charitable causes of the insurance/health care industry, oil industry, transportation expences, cheap imported garbage and fat local governments that cashed in on the inflated realestate assessments.... what more could a person hope for and take pride in ?

Perhaps Im jaded, I have somewhere around 35 conscience years of watching the race to the bottom. Perhaps Im jaded, I had my industry ripped out of the country and sent to south america. Yes perhaps Im jaded by it all but one thing Im not is statis quo and I think this would apply to many others who dont have a good thing to say about all this bullshit, "the new fucking millennium", "the new way we do business in aMerica", "the new breed of executives changing the face of the world", "the fast paced work environment (lofl)", "the new breed in politicians", "change is around the corner", yada yada yada! Its just so fucking invigorating.... these people hold me in such AWE

 

[ABQShredHead]

Ah, Steve. Now I know your name....

Actually, I thought it was, but wasn't sure.

I highly recommend The Fourth Turning: An American Prophecy by Strauss & Howe. The discussions of generational archetypes is spot-on to this discussion, and follows along with the "race to the bottom" and greed discussions. It's a quite long, somewhat dry read though. If we follow along with what this book presents through saecular (mind you, not secular), we'll see where the ebbs and flows of civilizations work through cycles of 80-100 years, following a High-Awakening-Unraveling-Crisis cyclic pattern, each lasting roughly 20 years. Our last Crisis was the Depression leading into WWII. The last generation with true ties to that Crisis was the G.I. generation, a generation that is now dying off. The following Silent generation were mere young'uns during this time, and do not have much of a tie to it. The G.I. generation made the US into the world power it is today. Subsequent generations have not worked as hard to maintain what the G.I.s built mostly as a result of never having to go through a major crisis. With the last ties to the crisis dying, we have following generations falling into lax living, moral nose dives, "me me me" mentalities, and a lack of social concern.

And it just so happens we are right at the time of turning our last Unraveling into a Crisis, with an upcoming Hero generation poised to become the next G.I. generation. So, if we have 15-20 more years of Crisis, what will happen, and what will be the defining moment? I predict the Middle East will have much to do with what happens, and my fears involve nutjobs' determined resolutions to inflict major statements on history. With the current weapons at their disposal, that terrifies me.

Relating that back to the current discussion of the current administration, I do no think we have leadership in place to stop an apparent march toward such a Crisis scenario; in fact, we may be seeing a expediency applied to the coming Crisis due to the lack of leadership and kowtowing we have witnessed over the last two weeks.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Perhaps Im jaded, I have somewhere around 35 conscience years of watching the race to the bottom. Perhaps Im jaded, I had my industry ripped out of the country and sent to south america. Yes perhaps Im jaded by it all but one thing Im not is statis quo and I think this would apply to many others who dont have a good thing to say about all this bullshit, "the new fucking millennium", "the new way we do business in aMerica", "the new breed of executives changing the face of the world", "the fast paced work environment (lofl)", "the new breed in politicians", "change is around the corner", yada yada yada! Its just so fucking invigorating.... these people hold me in such AWE

Dude, I agree with you on all of this. That stuff is bullshit.

Mark: Sounds interesting. I would probably agree with the premises.

 

[razoredge]

Edit: sorry for the lenght of this post, I know its dredfull to start reading them. I have passed by many myself.

Ken I just wanted to express that I dont believe its simply statis quo to be negative. Shit I used to be so positive, so driven, so iron willed.... fuck ! The more I see or live through the more pissed I get and its not like I enjoy it. Believe it or not I was very bleeding heart, very liberal, very love all mankind.... but ya know what is said about "love"...... lol... once bitten twice shy, it applies to more than just personal relationships.

Mark - I bet that is hard to read and digest. The first year I threw in the towel on my loggin business I actually did alot of reading, the only time in my life. I read books about the Alaskan goldrush, the first assigned Dutch trading post man in Greenland and one about the settlement of the Catskills. They also apply to what you and we are talking about, believe it or not. The book on the Catskills talks about the hard times first settlers had because it was unstainable crop land and on lease from those the Queen gave huge tracts of land to, so those people basically were indentured servents giving up a huge percentage of their crops to those wealthy hob nobs that lived down in the Hudson Valley. Anyhow it was that tanning industry that finally got the land more settled and industry going. Well that all died out and the area fell to desperation again. Then where the Hemlocks were clear cut for their bark for tanning many decades before, second growth hardwood began to mature and then there was business again for fine cabinet making and other wood products. Of course that didnt last forever either. Then there was the tourism of the later 1800's when the huge Hotel summer resorts went it and another period of prosperity. The depression took a bit of a toll on this but it was the plane, the automobile, the highway system that led people to go to Florida or name the place of more current designations and again the area fell into despar where it has mostly stayed ever since.

There was alot in there that was eye opening about the American Revolution too, it was not as we were taught in school. Those behind the Revolution were the wealthy looking for more financial freedom [taxs/terriffs) from England, commoners were still attached to England and soldiers were "bought" by one side or the other with promises of finally given ownership of the land they worked. So it was like a big bidding game. Any supposed "tory" was just someone promised what they deserved in the first place by the Queens represenatives and most commoners/workers hated the huge land holders who controled their every move and were seeking independence from England. So we were basically taught they were traders to their own neighbors, un patriotic when the truth was they hated their monopolistic puppet masters.... ring any bells ? lol

The Alaskan gold rush was interesting to, so many young men went up there with big dreams of striking it rich and so many died and the most of the remainder came home broken. It was the small handful of sharks that got the wealth.... hear any bells yet ?

So my point of all this besides very little has changed in the "free" world is that I realize I chose a shit ass profession and simply became another country hillbilly that society just doesnt have a use for anymore, its been going on for centuries. Theres a bit of a difference because we still use the products and would rather burn extra oil to get them to market but I do realize this shit happens... but I aint a gonna like it..... lol

One thing I did notice is that you are really focused on the military aspect that effected the economy. Yes we need the strenght but the waste in anything concerning our government is so hard to swallow. Our military hasnt exactly been towing the line of fiscal responsibility either.

Another note reaching back to a few pages ago. General Motors is going down, I hate it but its a fact. Nobody or damn few are going to touch a new GM vehical again regardless how much money our government throws at them. Just the thoughts of bankrupcty has even the loyal running scared. Regardless how good of a vehical they produce and they have produced many, still today, the mindset of aMerican buyers is simply not going to change. We have had Asian envy of all forms in this country for decades now and its totally bred into the psyche now. I could sit and weep like a baby at the death of the once greatest industry in N.America, one largly responsible for shutting down the chaos of WW II, but its going to happen and I think our government should just walk away. If they are not willing to stop all import of Japanese and Korean cars there is absolutely nothing that will stop the death of the American automobile industry. Like so much else in this country - IT IS OVER!

 

[Kenneth R.]

Actually, Ford and other American brands are struggling to meet demand in China. The US market is toast, but elsewhere business is booming. The stock market has been on the rise, banks in particular.

 

[razoredge]

Yes Buick is huge in China, apparently the dislike of Japan in China keeps them from going Japanezer. I still stand by my predictions, I was big into keeping up with the restructuring of GM products a few years back but even then I could see the writing on the wall. I predicted American Buick and Pontiac would be toast by 2010, seems I could have been off a bit but at the same time it seems it could still happen this year. It will happen, my predicting Chevy truck will be the last standing before that finally dies too. Just the job losses in the previous two decades in the N.American auto industry are stagering, our price for nuking Japan, through coerced trade agreements and efforts of keeping the peace.

 

[razoredge]

The stock market has been on the rise, banks in particular.

Yes I noticed this at the gas pump, get the price back up to 3-4-5-6-7-dollars and Im sure peeps will start throwing money around again like its going out of style......... whats a $600 a month transportation cost to a nation whos national average income is 20 some thousand.......... with the stock market rising this would be a good time to jack up the price of insurances yet again, get the money while you can.... woot woot wooo !