Oil

[metu]

During the two World Wars of the last century the citizens of the United States united behind a common goal. Since then, we've become too comfortable.

Back in the day, it was tin, or copper, or alluminum. Today it's oil. This is a problem dealing directly with our comfort. If saving a gallon of oil might save the life of one of our finest, is it maybe worth the walk?

While our trucks are getting bigger and more well equipped, our finest and bravest are losing limbs because their trucks aren't big and tough enough.

On September 11, 2001, we were attacked by mostly Saudi nationals. I believe that they, themselves, were full of religious ferver, but what was the motive of those who financed their mission? I think that the nastiest parts of this movement which targets all of us is, at its heart, a power struggle. The masterminds are very practical. They want the oil. They know, through Saudi experience, that it's our main weakness.

Oil is the copper of our generation. We have to conserve for the long term war/peace effort. Every drop of oil we don't use helps us all.

 

[Kenneth R.]

[clap] so damn true. so damn true.

there will come a day when Oil is gone, and what will we do then? kill each other and ourselves until humanity is but a scar on history? no miracle could save a world dependent on oil and greed when it is extinguished. we have to pull away from it now, before that day comes. starting with carpooling, walking, riding the bus... ultimately finding another source of fuel, conserving and removing the need for oil from our daily lives.

 

[metu]

Thank you for the applause. Tip your waitress.

Eventually, we have to find another source of fuel. (I'm a fan of the argument that we should be engaged in a project to change our fuel dependency which would dwarf the Manhattan Project) When you consider how much big buisness influences our government and our mass media, it seems clear to me that the people have to step up to bring about the necessary change using alternative media such as the internet.

The auto manufacturers will not make the change unless there is a very good economic reason. We have to force them to make that change.

Almost everything we buy depends on oil. How do you think that hats made in China are so much cheaper than those made in the U. S.? Because the companies which sell us this crap get great prices on oil.

The consumers hold the power. We decide what we buy. We have for too long ignored our responsibility. Power to the people.

We need to organize.

 

[SonOfCharlie]

its too early in the morning for my brain to work, but all i gotta say is anyone who thinks bush actuallys cares about the iraqi people REALLY needs to wake the fuck up.

 

[Kenneth R.]

The consumers hold the power. We decide what we buy. We have for too long ignored our responsibility. Power to the people.

We need to organize.

you and i are of very like minds.

 

[Warlord Of Death]

its too early in the morning for my brain to work, but all i gotta say is anyone who thinks bush actuallys cares about the iraqi people REALLY needs to wake the fuck up.

I agree, in a non-liberal way.

 

[metu]

you and i are of very like minds.

You have my sympaties.

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As for President Bush marching us to war for oil; I don't buy it. I think that it's a simple, demonizing accusation addressubg a complex, practical problem. It seems to me like the oil contracts were used by the administration as leverage to secure unwavering support from the British government. BP is everywhere now in my neck of the woods. There are now two BPs and a Speedy Q between me and the freeway. BP also gets oil from the Suddan.

Oil is a problem on many levels. If you haven't read about Venezuala for a while, look into it. Look into Nigeria's oil exporting, too. We're not paying enough attention to the results of our addiction. I'm not preaching sympathy; it's practical. It's practical that we try to secure those resources; it's practical that our enemies try to sabotage our supply.

The problem is that we have no concept of being at war. When we think of war, we thing of Iraq. Some of us think of the global Jihadists. This war is bigger than that. This war is for long-term economic and political stability. This war will last for decades.

In this context, consider how weak our dependency on oil makes us. Consider the oceans across which our oil travels. Consider the pipelines across contested lands. Consider how easy it is to fill up at the pump.

A war against terrorism is broader than the war in Iraq. The war over resources is more profound than either.

In an ever shrinking world, long-term stability is a common goal.

 

[sumairetsu]

Check your history; back during World War 2, it was also about oil. The United States forced an oil embargo upon Japan as a way to get the Japanese to stop occupying Asia, especially China. Being cut off from their oil supply was the final straw for the Japanese who then declared war on the U.S.

The pretense of the War on Terror was simply an excuse to march our boys and girls into the middle east and take their oil supplies.

Iraq? Iraq has the second largest oil supply in the world, right next to Saudi Arabia. And, don't expect the prices to come down any time soon with the GOP dominating the House, Congress, the executive and the judiciary. Also, when you think of Iraq, think "quagmire."

The military in Afghanistan is simply there to protect the proposed pipeline that will run through that nation.

Think about it: why else hasn't Osama Bin Laden been caught? It's been 1342 days since Septemeber 11th; Osama is still free.

 

[metu]

Thank you for challenging my words.

I'm not belittling the significance of the war over resources. Quite the opposite, I'm raising it. I'm trying to raise a debate surrounding it. I'm arguing that Iraq is a small part of a larger problem. Stop focusing on Iraq!

Please do some research and tell me exactly what pipeline is pumping what product through Afghanistan.

I've been ignoring the side-show of Iraq and reading about Central Asia this whole time. That's where the real shit has been going down while all these bitches have been focused on Iraq.

Honestly, if you're focusing on Iraq more than Uzbekistan right now, you suck.

 

[metu]

Heh. You sort of walked into an ambush there, eh sumairetsu?

I get very frustrated and this was a matter of timing. It angers me that so many people focus on the President and Iraq while ignoring Congress and the rest of the World. I'm frustrated with the current propaganda which only serves to demonize opposition. No offense, but you just laid down a steaming pile of regurgitated propaganda; I snapped.

Iraqi oil is an important issue. Will the United States use its influence to promote a system of redistribution of oil revenue equally for all Iraqi people, or will our politicians in conjunction with the corporate media use sound-bytes to convince voters that "free trade" means privatization and anything else is communism?

Most of the oil as well as most of the population are in the southern Shiite-dominated region. If oil revenue and political power are in the hands of one group, how can civil war be avoided?

 

[sumairetsu]

If oil revenue and political power are in the hands of one group, how can civil war be avoided?

It's too late. What do you think is going on in Iraq right now? Iraqis killing Iraqis...sounds like civil war to me - and it's one of the thing predicted by the CIA.

 

[metu]

Well, maybe it's too late. We don't know how many Iraqis are involved to what extent in the guerrilla war, but it seems clear that they are recieving at least a significant amount of popular support. Perhaps any government which tries to exert authority will be seen as a puppet of the US. Maybe it's too late, but mabe it's not.

The way I see it, we've thrown downt the gauntlet and declared the Iraqi people our allies. Regardless of the motivation of our leadership, I think that the vast majority of the supporters of that leadership beleive exactly that; we are now allied with the people of Iraq regardless of the consequences. I consider that to be a very admirable outlook.

The problem is that our whole political system has been devoured by the process of solidifying the base. Those same people who are supporting the present administration are those who will be most sesceptable to arguments against the distribution of oil revenues. It's the same angle of rhetoric and it is working to a frightening extent. (please listen to Christian radio to see what is realy happening to our country) If the Democrats come out in support of redistribution of oil wealth, what will be the reactions of the Republican party and their fanatical Christian supporters?

While the violence in Iraq at present is certainly very troubling, it's nothing compared to what could happen. As with much of sub-Saharan Africa, the borders were carved out by the colonial powers. These borders did not take into consideration the complex relations of the people involved.

If every Iraqi citizen owns a piece of stock, so to speak, in the national oil industry, maybe they could pull together in the interest of security; perhaps the people would support the status quo. The main problem with oil is that it's so easily controled by so few.

Our model should not be Saudi Arabia; it should be Norway. The revenues of the oil industry should be distributed to everyone equally: guarenteed by this new constitution. While we have this influence, let's push for that. This would make sense to them; trust me, they don't want a full-blown civil war either. Find some Iraqis on the internet and forward this idea.

It's not black and white. There is no simple formula which works on a global scale. Redistribution of oil revenue will not prevent civil war on its own. The Iraqi people need to slowly and steadily develop a society based on compromise.

Maybe it's too late; maybe it's not. We should still try.

 

[metu]

What? no discussion of this because it doesn't fit with party politics?