open for debate

[luke]

It seems that change is occuring at an exponential rate here at UM. For those of you wistfully dreaming of the days when we were a tightly knit circle linked by our love of music but free to pose questions that bore slightly more intellectual weight than the current rash of threads, I'd like to try and rekindle a little of the old spirit.

This particular debate has been brought to my mind after reading a paper my sister wrote (she's a kinesology/anthropolgy double major). It's titled "Body Commodification Through Organ Transplantation" and if I can get her permission I will post it here for you to read.
Basically she argues that giving a value to individual body parts (with that value having the potential to eclipse the value held for the person theirself) is dehumanizing. Considering that most of us come from the developed world, it is safe to assume that bar some unfortunate accident, were any of us to be part of an organ transplant it would probably be on the receiving end. Because we have the financial means and apparent need to ignore certain moral questions raised by harvesting of organs, we often neglect to consider it from every perspective.
It is a multifaceted issue, and most of you are probably wondering what exactly is the point that I'm trying to get to... Think about this: should organ transplants be allowed if they are contingient on monetary transaction? There is a very lucrative black market for illegal trade of human organs. Organ donors and their recipients often outline the disparities of class stratification.
Which becomes more important - the needs of the recipient or the rights of the donor?

Let's see if we can't get rid of some of the fat that's gathered in our brains since the summer....

 

[MetalManCPA]

Ok - strip money out of the equation. There is an obvious issue of supply and demand - and the demand far out-weighs the supply.

Let's say there is an available organ - who decides who is next in line? Do we have worldwide need lists for each organ, so the person on the top of the list gets it? Money has become the worldwide language of stature and power - and we're talking about life or death situations. If my liver goes at the same time yours does - what would be the determining factor in if it's you or me to get the transplant? If you have the money and I don't - in today's system I lose. Everybodys own personal situation is worse - so every other choice becomes futile.

Plus - no matter how it is happening - organ transplants saves lives. So why should I really care that the rich get first pick? They're still human, and it's still a life saved.

Now my point after that rambling - if the donor designates where the organ goes - that's the end of the story. If it's an organ available to all, I say who can pay gets it, because I see no other way (right now) to make it fair. If I think of a brilliant solution worthy of the Nobel Peace Prize, I'll fill you in.

 

[Obyeybyeogone]

If you need a liver transplant because you drank a keg of beer every day for 20 years, you should be low/no priority, people who couldn't help needing it should be higher priority.

 

[Obyeybyeogone]

O yeah, and with cloning etc. We are close to being able to grow organs in the lab, and this may be able to make the supply meet the demand and extend the average lifespan.

 

[Misanthrope]

who cares stick the liber in me, does not matters who belonged to. Im fucking cold about this, and im selfish and care about myself and the ones i love if they were the kidnaped donor or something i would seek revange and mourn, if they were in the need of an organ i would seek one and do whatever it is i have to do to save their lives. When its a matter of life and death i choose not to care about any moral.

 

[Misanthrope]

It seems that change is occuring at an exponential rate here at UM. For those of you wistfully dreaming of the days when we were a tightly knit circle linked by our love of music but free to pose questions that bore slightly more intellectual weight than the current rash of threads, I'd like to try and rekindle a little of the old spirit

why does anyone over 3 months old in the forum has to bitch about stupid crap? those days are long gone and i will take care that they stay gone bunch of discriminating motherfuckers. Leave if you dont like it cause i wont.

 

[moonchild]

well if i ever get ill enough that i need a transplant i guess i'll just die, fuck it, when my time comes i'll bow out gracefully, i don't need to go through surgery and months of recovery, feeling like shit and having someone else's organ in my body in the hope that it'll give a few extra years, i live my life today, if tomorrow does not come so be it

 

[Misanthrope]

How honorable of you, but do you wish the same to your love ones? if you do i think being in the situation would make you think 2 or 3 times more before refusing transplants. Medicine has come a long way and while is honorable that you choose to live a life without being patetic and weak, it wont be like that forever maybe by the time you need such a thing the transplant will be like putting a fake tooth because of the advances in medical science.

 

[moonchild]

anyway, on the original point...whose to say if one life is more valuable than another, to assume such a role is to assume the role of god, saviour and executioner in one stroke, you cannot reason one life against another and therefore any way of choosing who is to receive a transplant is totally arbitrary, devoid of purpose or meaning, and so by monetary means is just as valid as any other...

 

[moonchild]

Originally posted by Misanthrope
How honorable of you, but do you wish the same to your love ones? if you do i think being in the situation would make you think 2 or 3 times more before refusing transplants. Medicine has come a long way and while is honorable that you choose to live a life without being patetic and weak, it wont be like that forever maybe by the time you need such a thing the transplant will be like putting a fake tooth because of the advances in medical science.

to accept a transplant is to deny the only truth in life, that you must die, you cannot cheat fate, sooner or later death will creep up on you, if you choose to hold him back that is your choice, for myself i have no such wish, of course if someone close to me was ill i would seek to make them better, but then it is not up to me, it is a choice they would have to make, if the process was painfree and reliable and became routine then maybe i would undergo transplant, but as i speak now is how i see it today, and today i would not have one

i suppose my thoughts are governed by belief, i believe death is not the end, and when my human body wears out i may be tranfigured, i see life as a stage i am passing through and have no intention on stoping any longer than my itinerary permits

 

[luke]

Originally posted by metalmancpa
Ok - strip money out of the equation. There is an obvious issue of supply and demand - and the demand far out-weighs the supply.

Demand is created by political means, you cannot take money out of the equation because it is an integral part of all transactions involving human body tissues that do not occur between family or those willingly donating a part of themselves to someone they know in order to prolong that persons life.
The fact that people of lesser financial status simply cannot afford to buy these organs doesn't mean their life is worth any less than that of those who can (I don't think we're actually arguing on this one here).
But what about those who are unwilling donors? Imagine you're on vacation in Thailand and after a wild night in the bar you wake up 3 days later minus a kidney. Think of people who are convinced by thier doctor that they can live just as well with 1 kidney as two (one kidney will suffice for normal circumstances, but for anything beyond they could be in serious trouble). These cases would not occur if monetary value were not attached to human tissues.

 

[luke]

Originally posted by Oyo
O yeah, and with cloning etc. We are close to being able to grow organs in the lab, and this may be able to make the supply meet the demand and extend the average lifespan.

The future promises to be very interesting, indeed.

 

[MetalManCPA]

Originally posted by luke

Demand is created by political means, you cannot take money out of the equation because it is an integral part of all transactions involving human body tissues that do not occur between family or those willingly donating a part of themselves to someone they know in order to prolong that persons life.
The fact that people of lesser financial status simply cannot afford to buy these organs doesn't mean their life is worth any less than that of those who can (I don't think we're actually arguing on this one here).
But what about those who are unwilling donors? Imagine you're on vacation in Thailand and after a wild night in the bar you wake up 3 days later minus a kidney. Think of people who are convinced by thier doctor that they can live just as well with 1 kidney as two (one kidney will suffice for normal circumstances, but for anything beyond they could be in serious trouble). These cases would not occur if monetary value were not attached to human tissues.

I only meant to take money out for arguements sake - by the end of my prior post, of course it was all about money.

And in this world : money=politics.

I'm looking at your original question untainted - let's not get caught up in things like the unwamted donor - shit like that will happen. I really believe the answer is two-fold -

1. If the donor designates where the organ goes- case closed.
2. If #1 is false, here's the difficult answer. Again, I think right now, today, the one with the most money wins.

 

[luke]

Originally posted by Misanthrope
why does anyone over 3 months old in the forum has to bitch about stupid crap? those days are long gone and i will take care that they stay gone bunch of discriminating motherfuckers. Leave if you dont like it cause i wont.

If you have enough time to sit on this forum and provide negative comments for each and every post, why don't you use some of that time to peruse the analls of the vault and see for yourself what we are refering to?
You have a very distinct personality on this forum, and your comments on any of the issues previously discussed are welcome.

 

[luke]

Originally posted by metalmancpa
And in this world : money=politics.

gotta love capitalism. how much is my life worth?