P2P TORRENTS AND THE EVIL THEY DO

[rms]

Whoa, there, rms. Two things: (1) Lance King isn't a liar, and (2) It's easily possible to pick and choose validity of surveys and reports.

A survey by Fox News, for example, is likely to be different from one conducted by CBS News. Or a survey conducted by the Beef lobby versus one conducted by the PETA lobby. There's an inherent slant, a bias if you will, involved with each pollster.

The ultimate way to prove the veracity of any information is by checking it out with others in the industry. Ask bands. Ask label owners. If they say downloading isn't hurting them, you have your answer. But if they say it is, then you have another answer entirely -- one that I see many of you choose to ignore.

Im not saying he is, I have nothing against Lance. But how can you debate the reputation of an article by something that appears unknown to me. Obviously much more mainstream things(FOX news, CBS, PETA) can be but this article? I doubt there's alot of "These guys produce bullshit in every article".

And how do I know that some distributors only say that downloading is really affecting them is only a business strategy. People will sorry for them and buy more product, I mean I can be as pessimistic and automatically negative as Fiddler and you.

 

[The Fiddler]

Does the sentence "hey, this CD is only $11.99 at Best Buy" mean anything to you?

Yes it does mean something to me. It means that $11.99 is $11.99 more expensive than a download that costs $0.00.

$17.99 or $11.99, $0.00 trumps them all.

 

[The Fiddler]

If you want to percieve people of being unfaithful than how is Lance not lying, or any survey? I mean you can't pick and choose the things that support your arguement as fact and the opposition as incorrect.

And you believe all the politicians and advertisements you see, right? I mean, they have no agenda, and money is not important to them, so they wouldn't lie or withold damaging inforamtion that could influence your decision, right?

The next time a man e-mails you from Timbuktu, Mexico claiming you are entitled to part of a large financial settlement, so long as you provide your bank account number and social security number, are you going to take him at his word? After all, he has something for you. Why would he lie about such a serious issue?

After reading your arguements about the truthfullness of the human spirit, I now know why so many people continue to scam via e-mail - incredibly, there are still plenty of naive suckers ready to be had.

 

[rms]

And you believe all the politicians and advertisements you see, right? I mean, they have no agenda, and money is not important to them, so they wouldn't lie or withold damaging inforamtion that could influence your decision, right?

The next time a man e-mails you from Timbuktu, Mexico claiming you are entitled to part of a large financial settlement, so long as you provide your bank account number and social security number, are you going to take him at his word? After all, he has something for you. Why would he lie about such a serious issue?

After reading your arguements about the truthfullness of the human spirit, I now know why so many people continue to scam via e-mail - incredibly, there are still plenty of naive suckers ready to be had.

Now you seem like no matter what anyone says I take it as truth and wont speculate. You cant just lump this whole thing into 1 category. And as far as this thread goes, Im not the one being scammed with overpriced CD costs

 

[eaeolian]

Yes it does mean something to me. It means that $11.99 is $11.99 more expensive than a download that costs $0.00.

$17.99 or $11.99, $0.00 trumps them all.

I addressed what happened to Tower Records - one of your specific examples - and cited evidence that it's demise really didn't have anything to do with downloading, since it wasn't even an issue when the company went into the red. Tower was killed by bigger fish that directly went after their market. Other music specialty stores suffered similar fates, after they themselves killed most of the "mom & pop" music stores by under-pricing them. There's an irony in that fact.

For someone with such strong opinions, you're remarkably under-informed on the issue you're discussing. Then again, like a "true believer" of anything, you've formed your opinion, and no analysis, citing of facts or deconstruction of your argument is going to sway you.

Edit: with that, I'll add that I should know better than to feed the trolls.

So, moving on to people that actually have something to add to this discussion, where do we go from here. Zod's right, the Djinn is not going back in, so what's the future?

I tend to agree with NVD's post on the PM:X2 board - it's going to end in extreme market polarization. Lots of small bands and niche marketing, existing big-name artists in ugly deals with whatever's left of the big labels, and mindless sure-sell pop.

So it looks like I turn my radio off like I did for the 1990s.

 

[spag]

Also, those numbers don't take into account people who only downloaded one or two tracks, people who downloaded the torrent multiple times due to computer failures, and other issues. Not saying that excuses the number of downloads, but those numbers are skewed.

Or download the music and throw it away because it sucked. I buy a lot of CDs, but considering the INSANE number of shitty ones I've bought in the past, I find myself downloading them first to check them out. It's not much different than camping myself in Borders, and reading a couple of chapters of a book before I decide to buy it. Trust me, I throw away the majority of what I download. Especially true if it's some Euro release that's costing me big bucks. I buy CDs of what I like because I like the quality (lossless rips) as well as helping the bands.

 

[PurpleCrayonWriter]

I addressed what happened to Tower Records - one of your specific examples - and cited evidence that it's demise really didn't have anything to do with downloading, since it wasn't even an issue when the company went into the red. Tower was killed by bigger fish that directly went after their market. Other music specialty stores suffered similar fates, after they themselves killed most of the "mom & pop" music stores by under-pricing them. There's an irony in that fact...

...

I remember the Tower Records story when it broke. At the time, my comment was, "They went out of business because their business model was flawed." Their prices were too high for retail. Best Buy and Wal-Mart and other major retailers undercut them. All mall CD stores are like that, too. Prices at or above suggested retail. If Tower had lowered prices to compete with Best Buy et al perhaps they could have remained in business.

But it wasn't just national chains that undercut them. From the Wikipedia entry:

"Tower Records entered bankruptcy for the first time in 2004. Factors cited were the heavy debt incurred during its aggressive expansion in the 1990s, growing competition from mass discounters, and internet piracy.[3] It also had a policy of selling most Compact Disc recordings at list price."

The link at #3 refers to a CBS News report.

So, you see, it wasn't just Best Buy's $11.99 price. It was a combination of factors, Internet downloading being one of them.

The Tower Records example is a brilliant one that actually supports Fiddler, and others, who are up in arms over this issue.

If a huge chain with many outlets can go under, how long do you think independents can hold on? They rely on relationships, as low a price as they can afford, and volume sales. Each illegal download affects them adversely.

Does anyone here really want to see an article posted at Blabbermouth that reports Nightmare Records went out of business, largely due to illegal downloads? Seriously. Think about it. It could happen.

 

[eaeolian]

The ultimate way to prove the veracity of any information is by checking it out with others in the industry. Ask bands. Ask label owners. If they say downloading isn't hurting them, you have your answer. But if they say it is, then you have another answer entirely -- one that I see many of you choose to ignore.

Actually, that doesn't "prove" anything, although it does suggest a correlation. Labels are not selling as much product as they used to, and people are downloading music. The unanswered question: would those people have actually paid for CDs, anyway?

I suspect that's very true in pop music. Niche music like metal? Probably more of a mixed bag.

You can run around on this issue forever.

 

[skyrefuge]

shouldn't they now be booming and hiring with the increased number of bands (choices) available to customers today (as proponents of illegal downloading are so quickly to point out)?

What in your experience would lead to that hypothesis?

If your local gas station starts selling more types of fuel (E85, biodiesel, etc.), does that mean you're going to buy more of it? No, of course not. You're only going to buy as much fuel as you need. It's the same with music. People can really only listen to a finite amount of it, so increasing the supply isn't going to change the demand. To the contrary, the increase in supply paired with an unchanging demand makes it harder for *everyone* to achieve the volume levels necessary to turn a profit. That's why gas stations don't supply 20 varieties of gas; it just wouldn't be worth it. So the increase in record releases really hurts everyone releasing records; not only does it spread the sales more thinly amongst them, it also makes it more difficult for any one band to build up a large enough fanbase to make touring a viable endeavor.

Neil

 

[The Fiddler]

And as far as this thread goes, Im not the one being scammed with overpriced CD costs

Such as Eaeolian's $11.99 Value Saver priced, "The Very Best of Dokken", on Rhino Records at Best Buy?

I will admit that $11.99 is expensive if your annual income is below the poverty line (or if you still depend on your parents to support you).

 

[EJC_74]

Remember, the bands are paying those prices too. At least you're getting your disability check, no? What if you were working and not getting paid? Even harder to pay the price at the pump, especially when trying to promote your work on tour.

Not specifically targeting you with the following, but everyone who insists they have a right to try before they buy:

So, because the price of other things you want is high and you can't steal them, it's ok to steal music, 'cause it's easy? And you can hear sample music on the web before you buy. What other product do we buy that we can have the whole thing, at sale quality, before buying it? You read the blurb on a book cover before buying it. You take a test drive before buying a car. Neither is enough to tell for sure if you like it. Even most books (hardcover) cost more than a CD. I'm just not buying that argument.

I love your idea and arguments, Fiddler. A debate on this issue at ProgPower would be highly enlightening as well as entertaining.

Like I said, I am not happy about it either. But, I'd not have discovered so many great bamds, had I not DL'd anything! & I do not DL w/the intention of never buying the original. I am very much into discovering new bands; well even if they are just new to me. & in turn, turning other people onto them as well. & yeah, I get my disability check. But, they only give you $ to live off of, they clearly don't think music is necessary!

Anyway, on a side note: I am working w/the state to help me w/some sort of work, & also to possibly go to school for website development. I'd like to be off of the scraps they give me & afford ALL the CD's I want & then some!

& I've also DL'd D's from bands that are no longer together & whose CD's are discontinued. & it's better than paying almost $100 on ebay for them!

Bands like Laaz Rockit!

 

[EJC_74]

I remember the Tower Records story when it broke. At the time, my comment was, "They went out of business because their business model was flawed." Their prices were too high for retail. Best Buy and Wal-Mart and other major retailers undercut them. All mall CD stores are like that, too. Prices at or above suggested retail. If Tower had lowered prices to compete with Best Buy et al perhaps they could have remained in business.

But it wasn't just national chains that undercut them. From the Wikipedia entry:

"Tower Records entered bankruptcy for the first time in 2004. Factors cited were the heavy debt incurred during its aggressive expansion in the 1990s, growing competition from mass discounters, and internet piracy.[3] It also had a policy of selling most Compact Disc recordings at list price."

The link at #3 refers to a CBS News report.

So, you see, it wasn't just Best Buy's $11.99 price. It was a combination of factors, Internet downloading being one of them.

The Tower Records example is a brilliant one that actually supports Fiddler, and others, who are up in arms over this issue.

If a huge chain with many outlets can go under, how long do you think independents can hold on? They rely on relationships, as low a price as they can afford, and volume sales. Each illegal download affects them adversely.

Does anyone here really want to see an article posted at Blabbermouth that reports Nightmare Records went out of business, largely due to illegal downloads? Seriously. Think about it. It could happen.

Yeah, & the fact that they had like 2 locations! L.A., & N.Y.C.!

 

[rms]

Such as Eaeolian's $11.99 Value Saver priced, "The Very Best of Dokken", on Rhino Records at Best Buy?

I will admit that $11.99 is expensive if your annual income is below the poverty line (or if you still depend on your parents to support you).

Thank you for finding one fair priced CD of a band I dont like out of millions. You sir win the debate!

 

[skyrefuge]

If a huge chain with many outlets can go under, how long do you think independents can hold on? They rely on relationships, as low a price as they can afford, and volume sales. Each illegal download affects them adversely.

But you just cited the list of Tower's specific mistakes? Bigger doesn't mean better or smarter. Huge companies like United and Delta Airlines have gone bankrupt in recent years. And I'm pretty sure it's not because people are stowing away in the cargo hold and "stealing flights" from them. Meanwhile, Southwest Airlines, an "independent" has been doing just fine. Clearly, the size of your company has little to do with your ability to avoid bad business decisions that lead to failure.

Does anyone here really want to see an article posted at Blabbermouth that reports Nightmare Records went out of business, largely due to illegal downloads? Seriously. Think about it. It could happen.

Really, I don't think a lot of people would notice. Even in that relatively narrow subgenre, there's still plenty of releases that would fill the void. I'm sure other labels attempting to sell to the same audience wouldn't be terribly saddened the news. Personally, I'd like to see something like 50-80% of record labels go out of business (as long as they brought their bands down with them)...it would make my music-listening life a lot easier!

Neil

 

[eaeolian]

"Tower Records entered bankruptcy for the first time in 2004. Factors cited were the heavy debt incurred during its aggressive expansion in the 1990s, growing competition from mass discounters, and internet piracy.[3] It also had a policy of selling most Compact Disc recordings at list price."

The link at #3 refers to a CBS News report.

Yes, one in which Tower claims to have gone out of business because of piracy, with no supporting evidence. I suggest, however, that the fact that they were already losing money in 1999 undermines that idea. They were already on an ill-advised business course when downloading "arrived" as an issue. While it may have been complex than a simple "hey, they were idiots", it certainly looks to me like downloading was, at most, a minor player in this case. Factors #1 and #2 are the more likely culprits, realistically speaking.

Does anyone here really want to see an article posted at Blabbermouth that reports Nightmare Records went out of business, largely due to illegal downloads? Seriously. Think about it. It could happen.

Well, certainly you don't. Not to get BenMech on you here or anything, but you're not exactly a disinterested party here. Neither am I - I am one of said artists, after all - but for some reason, I don't seem to be as bent about this issue. Why? I've seen it directly help me - I know and have had conversations with people who've downloaded my work and then come to a show and bought merch from us.

How many sales have I lost form downloading? Not calculable, despite what the RIAA will tell you. You can guess - and it's nothing but a random-ass guess - but you can't *know*. You don't know if the guy that downloaded album A would have bought it on *either* side of the coin.

No one is suggesting that downloading isn't having an effect on the industry. What we're saying is that a.) all of the effect may not be negative, b.) the are other negatives in the industry that may or may not be being exacerbated by downloading, and c.) that bitching and threatening to get Old Testament about it (as Fiddler is, in a high-tech fashion) doesn't solve the problem - and in his case, will likely CAUSE more than it solves.

 

[Metal 99]

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here about Downloading, in the town i live in we have nothing but Walmart to buy cd's at..the sam goody closed down..so the nearest is 20 miles away, I use Amazon, Ebay, cd baby, ETC. to try to get music even I tunes. In smaller towns its got real hard to go get the original cd or DVD just on the spot on the day it comes, i think the problem is bands like that played at Prog Power their cd's aint available at walmart no use even asking, not even to Porcupine Tree, i bought Rush Snakes and Arrows was the only Prog type music i have ever found at WalMart, if you want the Eagles you can find it but i don't..anyway with gas prices souring to $3.00+ a gallon we can't make 20 mile trips for one cd, when it was 99 cents i could..Anyway i guess my point is even in Atlanta at best Buy and Circuit City i looked for new stuff and still can't find it..so in turn thats driving people to Downloading it.And I tunes has pretty good deals on whole cd's but they aint the original the new Circus Maximus i bought from I tunes and love it! but want the original packing call me old fashioned i guess i want everything original but the times are changing with all of this downloading and Millions are doing it a day, Stores are closing like here so you either wait weeks for Amazon to send the stuff and ebay, when a new realease comes out i want to hear it that day! but sadly its coming to not even getting it at all or Downloading it thru a Torrent or other ways, I have over a 1000 real cd's, and payed alot for some of them, some i get at concerts but usually $15 or 20 bucks you have to lay down to buy them, anyway for us metal and Prog lovers its harder to find cd's without a small fortune being put into them, so with the out landish gas prices we are paying ordering is the only option if you have no choices locally to buy good music..even ebay shipping is getting higher for a cd, so we are getting screwed every way..I hope there is a solution to this some say Downloading Hurts and it does expecially smaller bands, if you want the new eagles it probably won't be missed with the money they will make, but in some cases i think checking out a new cd before you buy it helps too, and then buy it when you can find it or order it, but downloading Some says exposes bands to some people that would never know them, cause you can't walk into walmart and ask for the new pagan's mind or circus maximus its like WHAT! they don't know who they are..Well thats it for now..maybe more its just down to getting music the best way you can now it looks like.

 

[sccaldwell]

Also, those numbers don't take into account people who only downloaded one or two tracks, people who downloaded the torrent multiple times due to computer failures, and other issues. Not saying that excuses the number of downloads, but those numbers are skewed.

They also don't take into account that this is from ONE "non-leading" BitTorrent site, as he said, and they don't take into account how many times each downloader may have given the MP3's to a friend via CD, network, etc. How many other BitTorrent sites are there? Multiply the posted download numbers by the number of sites, and you're getting close to the reality of illegal downloading.

I'm sure that these illegal downloads have led to free word of mouth advertising, but the best thing a person can do is support the band financially.

Yes, but unfortunately, the free word of mouth advertising may start out as "I found this great new band, and you've GOT to check out their new CD!!!" but is then followed by "...and you can download it for free off of BitTorrent!!"

So the only ones really benefitting are the Torrent sites, due to the ads they have posted.

Downloaders suck. 'Nuff said.

Craig

P.S. I'm only referring to those who download-to-avoid-buying, not those who download to preview BEFORE buying and actually DO buy anything they like and listen to.

 

[Metal 99]

They also don't take into account that this is from ONE "non-leading" BitTorrent site, as he said, and they don't take into account how many times each downloader may have given the MP3's to a friend via CD, network, etc. How many other BitTorrent sites are there? Multiply the posted download numbers by the number of sites, and you're getting close to the reality of illegal downloading.



Yes, but unfortunately, the free word of mouth advertising may start out as "I found this great new band, and you've GOT to check out their new CD!!!" but is then followed by "...and you can download it for free off of BitTorrent!!"

So the only ones really benefitting are the Torrent sites, due to the ads they have posted.

Downloaders suck. 'Nuff said.

Craig

P.S. I'm only referring to those who download-to-avoid-buying, not those who download to preview BEFORE buying and actually DO buy anything they like and listen to.

Yes craig you have the point i guess i was trying to say I buy everything usually later when i find it, Downloading is an iffy situation nowadays..

 

[eaeolian]

P.S. I'm only referring to those who download-to-avoid-buying, not those who download to preview BEFORE buying and actually DO buy anything they like and listen to.

Which neatly ties back into the problem Neil mentions - there's so much product out there that you either have to sample, or fall back on "brand loyalty".

There's no easy answer to this. One (or, more likely, several different ones that fit individual needs) will be found, though, because downloading is not going away.

 

[sccaldwell]

Bands won't go away, the model will simply change. We may see the end of physical media, and we may see the end of record labels, at least in their current incarnation. However, there will be no fewer artists. There will be no fewer kids who want to be rock stars. There will be no fewer MP3s.

I don't disagree with anything you said, Zod, but don't gloss over the true point:

Downloading copywritten music without paying for it is illegal.

Sure, some bands may be doing better. Good for them. But does that mean they're "getting by" without a day job? If people weren't stealing their music, maybe the band members could actually afford their own home and a nice car, too. I bet a lot of the illegal downloaders have their own home and a nice car.

It amazes me that people seem to excuse illegal downloading just because the government hasn't been able to stop it. And you're right that they probably never will. Even so, IT'S STILL WRONG. Perhaps if those of us with conscience and values stop condoning or accepting, and start condemning it as wrong, maybe people's views will change.

There was a time in the U.S. when littering was a huge problem (it still is, but much less). Many people thought nothing at all about finishing their drink and tossing the can out the window. It was always illegal, but it was socially accepted. Fortunately, that has changed. Hopefully one day the stealing of music will no longer be "accepted," either.

Craig