"producer's samples" selling idea

[joeymusicguy]

you guys need to drop the garage thing. most of these were not recorded in a garage

 

[Jind]

I'm prefacing this by saying that I have no idea about the copyright issues, ownership, blah, blah, blah... but I do wonder about performance rights or royalties? I've seen many a sample library that includes the performers name involved - another words, the person that actually held the drumstick in hand and hit the cymbal. Would one have to consider this when creating a sample library? Just wondering.

 

[colonel kurtz]

try using that logic against the beatles and their success...

at any rate, who cares if x snare was recorded with microphone y

what does it sound like is what im going to be asking first

didn't they cut most of their albums in a huge-ass, amazing, room at abbey road?

 

[HandsOfDespair]

Don't wanna start a shitstorm but...everyone on this forum is complaining about slate cymbals sounding fake and not realistic...so how could a bunch of cymbals you load in a sampler like kontakt sound more realistic?

 

[slashvanyoung]

I'm prefacing this by saying that I have no idea about the copyright issues, ownership, blah, blah, blah... but I do wonder about performance rights or royalties? I've seen many a sample library that includes the performers name involved - another words, the person that actually held the drumstick in hand and hit the cymbal. Would one have to consider this when creating a sample library? Just wondering.

People need to stop looking at these sample packages like a conglomeration of "recorded audio". I mean, they are, but technically it's a software package. Audio royalties don't apply to software packages as long as they don't include copyright protected material (like it's the case with games which have a soundtrack) from third parties.

If artists are credited on the libraries than it's because of their contract. They get their name out and the publisher is able to use the name for advertising. A win - win situation.

So if you hire somebody to hit your drums and cymbals for you to record/sample these, than you don't have to pay any royalties whatsoever or put their names out if it wasn't agreed upon as a part of the contract.

The moment a drummer walks into your studio and he agrees to let you sample his kit, you own the rights to the recorded samples. And you can do whatever the fuck you want with them.

 

[Jind]

People need to stop looking at these sample packages like a conglomeration of "recorded audio". I mean, they are, but technically it's a software package.

See, now this is where I question that definition. Just because you put audio into a software sample player - say Kontakt as an engine, does not change the fact that the samples themselves are still audio. Audio recordings have certain protection under the law - I once again preface this with the "I don't know shit about it" clause, but to say just by calling it software negates certain laws regarding audio recordings is simplifying things.

I would risk nothing until I found out for certain that:

1: I owned the material (no assumptions of ownership).
2: If not - what do I need to do?

While I think this is a cool idea - I would seek council instead of just blanketly trusting the various opinions on a forum.

 

[joeymusicguy]

alright well fuck this idea.

 

[JeffTD]

Jesus, three guys totally shit on an idea that would've given me some really goddamn useful samples! Cheers for that, lads!

This is really easy... listen to Joey's productions. Do you like the sound of the cymbals?

If yes, stop whining. If it sounds good, it is good.

If no, don't buy it! That's what we do with Slate/Superior/BFD/Addictive Drums/etc... when we don't like it!

 

[jval]

nothing against joey but come on, are you guys really that desperate for a bunch of cymbal samples?? is it really that hard to record.... or does no one actually care about learning how to engineer?
not that I blame him for seeing a way to capitalize on that..

 

[AdamWathan]

nothing against joey but come on, are you guys really that desperate for a bunch of cymbal samples?? is it really that hard to record.... or does no one actually care about learning how to engineer?
not that I blame him for seeing a way to capitalize on that..

+1

Does everyone here want to remain a Superior 2.0/POD Warrior forever...? Come on guys, throw up some microphones once in a while and learn something.

 

[JeffTD]

Hard to throw up some mic's and record a kit in the acoustical genius that is my dorm room - I'd be using these for prepro, writing, my own stuff, and cymbal accents and odd fx in other productions.

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

I won't go into arguing whether or not the cymbal pack is a good idea on an economic/personal/religious/ridiculous level whatsoever, but I think the best point in this thread was the recommendation for Joey to get a good lawyer to clarify everything and make sure everything's ok if he decides to do it. There isn't such a thing as "too sure"

 

[Josh Burgess]

I'd definitley buy them if the cymbals had enough samples to make them fully playable. I think I can get away with triggering slate drums for kick/snare/toms, but I'd really like to have more live, realistic sounding overheads for my music, and I don't have the means to record them. I know your method is pretty much triggering all slate drums and recording the OHs naturally, and we all know how your results have turned out.... so, I'd definitely be down to buy the cymbals to use. If you want to do this, I'd try to set it all up ASAP though, since Slate is coming out with the Deluxe kits early 2010 (sometime in January or February, I think) and those are supposed to improve on the cymbals/overheads a lot... he might finally hit the nail on the head with the overheads and there might be a lot less people looking for cymbal samples then.

 

[AdamWathan]

Hard to throw up some mic's and record a kit in the acoustical genius that is my dorm room - I'd be using these for prepro, writing, my own stuff, and cymbal accents and odd fx in other productions.

I hear you dude for sure but do you really need to pay money for cymbal samples for prepro and home demos? I've been using the same 5 samples total for all my cymbals on prepro/demo stuff since I was 13 and don't feel the need for anything better... The real deal is gonna be tracked properly eventually, I don't see the sense in meticulously mapping multisampled velocity sensitive crashes and chinas for rough demos.

 

[slashvanyoung]

See, now this is where I question that definition. Just because you put audio into a software sample player - say Kontakt as an engine, does not change the fact that the samples themselves are still audio. Audio recordings have certain protection under the law - I once again preface this with the "I don't know shit about it" clause, but to say just by calling it software negates certain laws regarding audio recordings is simplifying things.

I would risk nothing until I found out for certain that:

1: I owned the material (no assumptions of ownership).
2: If not - what do I need to do?

While I think this is a cool idea - I would seek council instead of just blanketly trusting the various opinions on a forum.

But I actually do know shit about this. I'm a media scientist and media law has been part of my education and research.

Yes, these samples are audio and they're not excluded from copyright and intellectual property rights, even if the library as a whole is qualified as a software package.

The main point is: Neither of these rights, copyright or intellectual property rights, are infringed by releasing such a package.

The artist can't complain about a possible infringement of intellectual property because a simple drum hit doesn't qualify as such because it neither contains a melody nor is it the result of a creative process.

And about the copyright: There is a contract. In this contract, the services and the property rights are stated. The label or band pays for the services and the products that are agreed upon. Let's say there is only a spoken word contract: "I pay you 100 bucks for recording and mixing my CD.". In that case you only have the right to receive the service of being recorded and to get the final mix. In such a case, technically, you wouldn't even have the rights to get individual stems and it's upon the engineers goodwill if he hands them over.

And with a written contract, it's exactly the same. If the individual samples aren't part of the deal ("upon payment, the label receives the property rights to everything that's recorded in the making of the product"), then the client (label or band) has no copyright or property rights to them.

So that's completely dependant on the contract. In most contracts I've seen, there hasn't been such a passage.

 

[drew_drummer]

Again; get a lawyer. Slash may SAY he knows something about this... but what if he doesn't?? *shrugs*

 

[futuremartyr]

You could probably just call a lawyer and ask. Alot of times they will just tell you on the phone.

Also:
If you want a site to sell them on, then I will build you a simple page on my host. You will have to get a domain (There are free ones, I will do it for you if you choose.) to forward it so my host name will not show in the link. I will host it for a copy of the pack in .wav form. I have unlimited bandwidth and storage so It can handle your needs.

Let me know something.

acealashley[@]gmail[dot]com

 

[slashvanyoung]

Again; get a lawyer. Slash may SAY he knows something about this... but what if he doesn't?? *shrugs*

Yeah, I'm not a lawyer and if he'd want this to be 100% waterproof he would have to have a lawyer specialized in media law looking over every single contract he signed.

BUT: I'm not drawing conclusions out of the air nor am I guessing. This has been part of my education and I'm not the kind of person who runs his mouth if he doesn't know what he's talking about. Assuming otherwise is pretty damn insolent.

 

[drew_drummer]

Yeah, I'm not a lawyer and if he'd want this to be 100% waterproof he would have to have a lawyer specialized in media law looking over every single contract he signed.

BUT: I'm not drawing conclusions out of the air nor am I guessing. This has been part of my education and I'm not the kind of person who runs his mouth if he doesn't know what he's talking about. Assuming otherwise is pretty damn insolent.

Pull your defensive head out of your arse; I never assumed anything about you. I pointed out that you're a dude on a forum and not a lawyer; get a grip.

The company I work for has real world experience within the sample library field; and there are lots of thorny issues that you may not be aware of. Education does not equals knowledge.

 

[Jind]

Slashvanyoung - I have no doubts about the level of your knowledge - I think drew_drummer and I are just saying that before one gets themselves into something with possible monetary liability it would be best to:

1: Consider all possible problems that may come up.
2: Make things as watertight as a ducks arse - legally.
3: If your going to do it - do it right.

As a side note and referencing something you said earlier I want to pose a scenario based upon something you said and I wonder as to the answer (yes, I may just be being silly but oh well....)

OK - Say I happened to own say a Guitar Center and I setup a drum clinic with ..... oh, Lars Ulric (why I'd want this is not for debate - he's just more likely than anyone else to take legal action against what I'm going to do). So on the day of the clinic I have his drum kit all miked up and routed out to the PA system and oh, by the way I'm also capturing the performance to a multi-track DAW.

So the performance goes great - my customers are happy as pigs in shit. I have a moment of genius and decide I'm going to clean up all that audio I recorded and process it so it sounds great. Then I'm going to slice it up into individual hits and pieces - you know snare, toms, kick, oh and cymbals <wink, wink>. So I do this so it has no "melodic" content and to protect the myself I call these the Guitar Center - Danish Drumtallica collection as say a Kontakt library (see how I named it something original and different <wink, wink>. I release it and it becomes my best selling product. Mind you - I did not clear this with said Lars, his management, or anyone else for that matter.

It was recorded in my space, with my tools - so from what you have told me:

The artist can't complain about a possible infringement of intellectual property because a simple drum hit doesn't qualify as such because it neither contains a melody nor is it the result of a creative process.

I'm good as gold - Lars can kiss my ass while I reap the rewards? Somehow if I thought this was true there would be a hell of a lot more drum sample sets named after (well psuedo-named after) famous drummers out there.

Yes - I'm being a bit facetious, but that scenario or something similar seems quite possible so I posed it with a smile and the curiosity of a cat.

By the way - I still think Joey should make it iron clad before he does something like this, but if he was able to I'd buy it for a good set of cymbals.