Radical Traditionalism

There's a generally accepted distinction between the terms "valid" and "sound" in logic. An argument's validity depends on the strength of the connection between the premises and the conclusion, whereas it only becomes sound when the premises themselves are true.
 
Demiurge said:
Let me restate my challenge: present a deductive argument proving that your form of morality should be adhered to. It's been active for over a day now and I haven't seen you take me up on it.

If I say, destruction of humanity is good, go ahead and point me to the logical rules I've violated. It's a statement. It's subjective. It's not subject to a priori reasoning. Your only recourse is to disagree.

You keep responding, but you don't get the point. There's no way to use logic to derive the proper ethical starting point. If you had that, you could try to apply it to the world and define things that contradict it as immoral. The thing is that you can't find it and neither can anyone else.

I know you said that, but it can't be encompassed at all because ethical systems are the formulation of pragmatic rules to establish a normative standard with the purpose of produciing a social world of some sort. Take an action that has had a binary value judgment imposed upon it. Use murder, for no particular reason. Why is it bad? Because it disrupts organized civilization if it's permitted and being organized into civilizations allows us to accomplish more while leading safer lives. It's strictly pragmatic. To try to prove that murder is bad, you could start by saying that society must be maintained. I would reply that absolute freedom is more important than the submission to opressive rules required by society. Society must be destroyed so we can regain our autonomy. For me, this freedom is more important than material comfort.. What I've said is, while not common, not illogical at all. Your other recourse would be to turn to an entity outside of us, a God, who superimposes absolute values upon us. You would need to put in a lot of work to prove this in a way that sceptics wouldn't burn it down. No one's done it yet, actually.

Someone is very familiar with Kant. Well stated.
 
Demiurge said:
Let me restate my challenge: present a deductive argument proving that your form of morality should be adhered to. It's been active for over a day now and I haven't seen you take me up on it.

If I say, destruction of humanity is good, go ahead and point me to the logical rules I've violated. It's a statement. It's subjective. It's not subject to a priori reasoning. Your only recourse is to disagree.

You keep responding, but you don't get the point. There's no way to use logic to derive the proper ethical starting point. If you had that, you could try to apply it to the world and define things that contradict it as immoral. The thing is that you can't find it and neither can anyone else.

I know you said that, but it can't be encompassed at all because ethical systems are the formulation of pragmatic rules to establish a normative standard with the purpose of produciing a social world of some sort. Take an action that has had a binary value judgment imposed upon it. Use murder, for no particular reason. Why is it bad? Because it disrupts organized civilization if it's permitted and being organized into civilizations allows us to accomplish more while leading safer lives. It's strictly pragmatic. To try to prove that murder is bad, you could start by saying that society must be maintained. I would reply that absolute freedom is more important than the submission to opressive rules required by society. Society must be destroyed so we can regain our autonomy. For me, this freedom is more important than material comfort.. What I've said is, while not common, not illogical at all. Your other recourse would be to turn to an entity outside of us, a God, who superimposes absolute values upon us. You would need to put in a lot of work to prove this in a way that sceptics wouldn't burn it down. No one's done it yet, actually.
if you believe this, then logic for you is impossible as everything becomes subjective, since everything humanity "knows" is just a matter of opinion, be it by one expert or 6 billion, they are collections of opinions as NOTHING is known for certain, with the prime example of quantum mechanics.

crimsonfloyd: humans who believe humanity is a disease are suffering from some illness. would you suggest they commit suicide? do they believe their lives are a curse they are to endure? they need psychological help.

cythraul: and that is what i had meant above: though demiurge may think and argue with "logic", i only care to discuss logic of sound reason.
 
Silent Song said:
if you believe this, then logic for you is impossible as everything becomes subjective, since everything humanity "knows" is just a matter of opinion, be it by one expert or 6 billion, they are collections of opinions as NOTHING is known for certain, with the prime example of quantum mechanics.

crimsonfloyd: humans who believe humanity is a disease are suffering from some illness. would you suggest they commit suicide? do they believe their lives are a curse they are to endure? they need psychological help.

cythraul: and that is what i had meant above: though demiurge may think and argue with "logic", i only care to discuss logic of sound reason.

In regards to your comments towards crimson floyd, how about they laugh, and mock their lives and imperfection. I am about the most pessimistic person I know, and laughing and mocking our tragic fate brings me endless pleasure.

But Im going to take this argument all the way back to 300 B.C., when a philosopher in a garden decided Plato's and Aristotle's reason and logos were false, and man only has his senses. That man in his garden postulated that man is essentially an organic being made up of atoms, nothing more; hence there is no guiding force, no god, no eternal reason to guide us--no one, no eternal system. It seems to me that if anything, this man anticipated our last century of scientific understanding of the world 2300 years ago--although his ideas regarding atoms and atomic creation were a bit off.
 
Incorrect, you have constructed a strawman. You have not responded to me at all. I said that morality is constructed by man to establish a normative standard so that a society can function. As such, it does not exist in an a priori sense(objectively, as a perfect form, etc.). This can be shown by that I can merely disagree with it by filtering it through a different perspective without violating any logical principles.

To clarify, if morality is strictly pragmatic, I can simply argue against what it's attempting to structure(society), by taking the position that society is undesirable(for whatever reason, I've given one above). This is a perspective that violates no logical principle, while it's likely not a popular one. To be less radical, I can argue that society would function better if organized according to a different ethical system. If morality comes from God, theists have a lot of proving to do before I become an adherant.
 
There are limits to logic. Logical thought can be used to construct a practical application of an ideal, but it can't create that ideal. Logic can't provide an adequate answer to a question like "Why do anything instead of nothing at all?" or "How should I treat other people?"
 
Although I am really stretching the argument here, how about Karl Popper's attack against the logic of science. I post a synopsis of the Karl Popper website to explain his philosophy:


In 1934 Popper published what many regard as his Magnum Opus The Logic of Scientific Discovery. The famous chemist Wachtershauser said that this is a "gem" and that it liberated him from a sterile accounting view of science. Wachtershauser subsequently went on to develop one of the main theories of the origin of life. Frank Tipler, the famous cosmologist, regards this as the most important book this century. In one majestic and systematic attack, psychologism, naturalism, inductionism, and logical positivism are swept away and replaced by a set of methodological rules called Falsificationism. Falsificationism is the idea that science advances by unjustified, exaggerated guesses followed by unstinting criticism. Only hypotheses capable of clashing with observation reports are allowed to count as scientific. "Gold is soluble in hydrochloric acid" is scientific (though false); "Some homeopathic medicine does work" is, taken on its own, unscientific (though possibly true). The first is scientific because we can eliminate it if it is false; the second is unscientific because even if it were false we could not get rid of it by confronting it with an observation report that contradicted it. Unfalsifiable theories are like the computer programs with no uninstall option that just clog up the computer's precious storage space. Falsifiable theories, on the other hand, enhance our control over error while expanding the richness of what we can say about the world.
Any "positive support" for theories is both unobtainable and superfluous; all we can and need do is create theories and eliminate error - and even this is hypothetical, though often successful. Many superficial commentaries are keen to point out that other people stressed the importance of seeking refutations before Popper. They overlook the fact that Popper was the first to argue that this is sufficient.

This idea of conjecture and refutation is elaborated with an orchestration suggestive of someone who loves great music. (Popper loved Mozart and Bach, and took great pleasure in composing his own music.) The common idea that Popper neglected to consider whether Falsificationism itself is falsifiable is already scotched here. You can falsify a description, but not a rule of method as such (though obviously a rule can be criticized in other ways). The notion that science offers proof is now only advanced by popular treatments of science on TV and in (many) newspapers - most journalists (with a few important exceptions) are sadly completely devoid of theoretical knowledge: a side-effect of overspecializing on the immediate moment. But then, anyone can improve!

Most people who think they have a ready rebuff to Popper's position have never read his work. If they only read the original works, in most cases they would see that their supposed "Point that Popper neglected" had already been considered and exploded. A good example of this is Lewis Wolpert's remarks on Popper's works in his otherwise excellent book The Unnatural Nature of Science. He seems to think that Popper's falsifiability criterion ignores hypotheses about probabilities - overlooking the blatant fact that The Logic of Scientific Discovery devotes more than a third of its pages to the two fundamental problems of probability in an effort to find a solution that will also allow hypotheses about the probability of events to be capable of clashing with the evidence! Popper was in fact fascinated by probability and even produced his own axiomatisation of the probability calculus.

Found at:http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~tkpw/
 
speed said:
But Im going to take this argument all the way back to 300 B.C., when a philosopher in a garden decided Plato's and Aristotle's reason and logos were false, and man only has his senses. That man in his garden postulated that man is essentially an organic being made up of atoms, nothing more; hence there is no guiding force, no god, no eternal reason to guide us--no one, no eternal system. It seems to me that if anything, this man anticipated our last century of scientific understanding of the world 2300 years ago--although his ideas regarding atoms and atomic creation were a bit off.

You mean: no external guiding force.

And "interal" includes both our will, and the will of nature.
 
Demiurge said:
There are limits to logic. Logical thought can be used to construct a practical application of an ideal, but it can't create that ideal. Logic can't provide an adequate answer to a question like "Why do anything instead of nothing at all?" or "How should I treat other people?"
i deny none of this. my argument is that when one exceeds the limits of logic, one must use sound reasoning based on what logic one knows in order to assess situations regarding ethics and morality. if one simply decides whatever one fashions, then what universal order can exist?
 
Silent Song said:
i deny none of this. my argument is that when one exceeds the limits of logic, one must use sound reasoning based on what logic one knows in order to assess situations regarding ethics and morality. if one simply decides whatever one fashions, then what universal order can exist?

There is what is logical, and then there is "logic," which conventionally implies a linear reductivist approach.

Maybe just "sensible" is a word we can all agree on (and world peace will reign, or something LOL AIDS HY)
 
Silent Song said:
what is sensible to you is not sensible to me, so no i disagree.

Argument by extension: what is rational to you is not rational to me, so there is no rationality.

The same even can be applied to logic: if someone literally cannot see a truth or a false state, they cannot agree on something's logicality.

Sensible must be defined according to some form outside of the individual then.

Really, this is basic stuff.
 
infoterror said:
Argument by extension: what is rational to you is not rational to me, so there is no rationality.

The same even can be applied to logic: if someone literally cannot see a truth or a false state, they cannot agree on something's logicality.

Sensible must be defined according to some form outside of the individual then.

Really, this is basic stuff.

There you have it.

i deny none of this. my argument is that when one exceeds the limits of logic, one must use sound reasoning based on what logic one knows in order to assess situations regarding ethics and morality. if one simply decides whatever one fashions, then what universal order can exist?

Very well, we'll use sound reasoning based on the logic we know to proceed...but from what exactly? You haven't provided this, the aspect around which the entire discussion revolves.

Your question leads us off our course. I'm currently working on establishing something more basic: that a logical system cannot be used to derive morality because it cannot provide the fundamental principles upon which it must rest.
 
infoterror said:
Argument by extension: what is rational to you is not rational to me, so there is no rationality.

The same even can be applied to logic: if someone literally cannot see a truth or a false state, they cannot agree on something's logicality.

Sensible must be defined according to some form outside of the individual then.

Really, this is basic stuff.
no. "sensible" implies senses, which are individualistic. you are mistaken.
 
Demiurge said:
Very well, we'll use sound reasoning based on the logic we know to proceed...but from what exactly? You haven't provided this, the aspect around which the entire discussion revolves.

Your question leads us off our course. I'm currently working on establishing something more basic: that a logical system cannot be used to derive morality because it cannot provide the fundamental principles upon which it must rest.
proceed...from what? what do you mean? i think i have made myself quite clear.

a logical system must provide guidance for morality and that logical system must be within realistic reason. otherwise morality is unstructured and erratic, dependent on whim.
 
Demiurge said:
Well, not exactly. In that context, it's taken to mean displaying good sense. Language is funny that way...
good sense as in "makes sense" aka coherent, or as in well-sensed, an inner moral identity?

2am.... i'm gone for the night.
 
Silent Song said:
proceed...from what? what do you mean? i think i have made myself quite clear.

a logical system must provide guidance for morality and that logical system must be within realistic reason. otherwise morality is unstructured and erratic, dependent on whim.

Proceed from the fundamental principles from which the moral code spirals outward.

Again, you can use logical thought to craft a practical application of an ideal. What I want you to do is explain how one uses logic to get the ideal. This is the entire discussion.
 
Silent Song said:
and how would you arrive at your personal ideals if without logic? and how would you justify them?

I already told you how it is done. A system of practical rules is developed to organize society and exert power over its consituents(do not take as value judgment). These constituents are subjected to the structure, which limits them, but benefits them by offering protection. Something transcendental is posited as the establisher of the fundamental principles, hence giving them an objective guise for the benefit of maintaining the status quo.

Now what you said is that morality is logical, which it isn't because it's strictly perspectival. It's a system that does something(organizes, structures, limits). There's no logical contradiction when I disagree with that something(thou shalt not, golden rule, etc.). For there to be one, it would need to be objective(a perfect form). What you need to do is to use pure reason to deductively arrive at the ideal, otherwise, we can take it to be something other than a logical formulation. Obviously, in making this argument, your premises cannot be such that I can simply disagree with them without illogical implications.

As I said, once you have the fundamental principles, you can use logic to apply them to the ethico-political realm. But the fundamental principles themselves, these can't be discovered by pure rational strain.