Real snare tracks - mic'ing/processing

[greyskull]

top tip i nicked off slate from gearslutz; sort of a parrallel compression thing, but just on the snare...
Duplicate the snare track. then spank the fuck out of it and boost the top; maybe cut the lows a bit ; then gate it HARD and i mean REALLY hard, so theres no spill from the hats, blend with your other snare mic track with more conservative processing; voila up front snare with no spill.

thankyou mr slate; that one has come in VERY handy

 

[gabriel g.]

Also one simple tip:

I always use moon geel on the snare( sometimes up to 2 or 3)
If this isnt enough I also use some tape to fix...

So I want the snare very dry in the recording process because it makes it more punchy.

 

[Morgan C]

top tip i nicked off slate from gearslutz; sort of a parrallel compression thing, but just on the snare...
Duplicate the snare track. then spank the fuck out of it and boost the top; maybe cut the lows a bit ; then gate it HARD and i mean REALLY hard, so theres no spill from the hats, blend with your other snare mic track with more conservative processing; voila up front snare with no spill.

thankyou mr slate; that one has come in VERY handy

I do this. One track with a transient designer and short gate, another track with a slower gate, saturation and comp to bring out the body.

I think its an issue with my recording rather than processing.

@XGabrielX
Yeah, I use Moongel. I don't like using too much though as it muffles it too much I find.

Btw, just read your tips again.. a 45degree angle for snare seems REALLY big? And you mean 10cm away from the centre of the drum yeah? If you could get pics that would be awesome.

Also, I didn't realise you were using an i5 when I said yours have more lows. How good is the i5's bleed rejection compared to a 57? I ALWAYS have to boost 200hz and 7khz and cut 300hz with a 57, which brings in a little more bleed. I find mics that are 'pre-eqd' tend not to 'eq' the bleed as much as eq'ing afterwards with a flatter mic.

 

[gabriel g.]

The angle of 45° and the 10cm were just a pointer....It always has to be a compromise between the sound and how the drumset is set up, thats why I hate drummers with 5 toms and 20 cymbals!!!!

The sm57 is great, but I realy love the compination of audix i5 on the top and sm57 on the bottom.

I got this tip from LUC tellier (myspace.com/luctellier) from gearslutz. check out his stuff he mostly uses real snares!!!

 

[Morgan C]

The angle of 45° and the 10cm were just a pointer....It always has to be a compromise between the sound and how the drumset is set up, thats why I hate drummers with 5 toms and 20 cymbals!!!!

2 toms and 4 cymbals .

I've only really ever gone up to 30degrees.. raising the angle seems to make the sound more full but also more tubby. So for that clip I lowered it to about 20degrees. I'll try with more extreme angles. I might also try mic'ing between the rack toms.. that's how it was done on DT's Train of Thought album and I love that snare (obviously the mic'ing wasn't the only element, but its a start).

 

[Machinated]

A bottom mic would help for sure.

one of my favourite mic sounds, I actually had the top mic pointing at the snare at a steeper angle (getting a bassier sound), and then I compensated for this by using the bottom mic and OH's to get some more high end back in the sound. worked out really well and the snare cut through great. also helped that it was a £400 14x6.5 brass black panther haha

 

[Trevoire520]

The snare you're recording and how hard it's being hit will make a difference. I try to get the snare sounding as punchy as I can without using moongels, a Evans Genera Dry head will really really help with getting rid of overtones. I've had good results from Powerstroke's and Ambassadors too.

I tend to mic top and bottom, sometimes side too, though this has quite alot of spill so it only really gets used in making samples. I like I5's on top and bottom as they already have a boost in the lows, boost in the highs and a bit of a mid scoop, which is what I'd normally be doing in the mix with a 57. Bottom mic is positioned to get best rejection of the kick, top mic is parallel to the top skin, about an inch or so up from the rim, with the rear of the mic pointing to the hats (for 57's I change it to more of an angle as the 57 becomes supercardioid at high frequencies)

I find even when using an I5, which I find is pretty pre-eq'd towards a good snare sound I still have to go for quite a bit of eq in the mix to get it sitting right.
I think that unless very little bleed in the snare track that gate's are near useless, as every time the snare is hit the hat's etc come through.
Overheads are a very big part of the snare sound, I don't filter anywhere near as high as most on the forum, maybe 120-200Hz. There's actually quite alot of snare body in the overhead mic's as long as you're not close mic'ing cymbals.


I tend to get my snare sound from almost every mic in the kit believe it or not. I measure the time difference that a snare hit comes from the snare trigger to coming through every other mic in the kit, and set up some delays so that the snare hit is coming through every mic at the same time. Seems to make the snare sound a bit more solid imo.

 

[BLUElightCory]

Can you elaborate on how to get phase right when recording, instead of trying to fix it afterwards?

Cos I constantly hear this mentioned but I really have no idea what they mean.

A few quick tips:

- Since a drumset is made up of multiple individual instruments, it's impossible to have everything in perfect phase when you're using multiple mics. I like to pick one or two elements (snare and maybe kick) to focus on.

- Check your drums in mono - When you listen to the drum mix in mono, the low end should remain consistent with the normal stereo drum mix. If it gets thinner, you need to move mics or try reversing the polarity of some of your mics to combat the phase cancellations that are going on.

- If you're using a top/bottom mic setup (top/bottom snare, toms, front/back kick, etc.) you'll probably (but not always) need to reverse the polarity on one of the mics.

- I like to use a phase-adjust box (like the Little Labs IBP) on double-mic'd drums like snare (I use a top and bottom mic) or kick (I use an inside/outside mic). The IBP adjusts the phase relationship between the two mics to achieve the fullest possible sound.

- On stereo pairs of mics like overheads and room mics, I like to use a measuring tape to make sure both mics are equidistant from the snare. This keeps the snare centered in the stereo image and helps the kit sound hold up in mono.

 

[Morgan C]

Right well I played around with this a bit more, trying practically every mic'ing position.

I think its my room. I'm hitting fucking hard, its a good snare, its tuned well, I'm using mic'ing positions that obviously work for other people. I can't think of what else it could be.

I am in a garage.. and the OHs are very live and washy. Everything blurs into everything else a bit. So that might be affecting my close-mics too. Its not a phase relationships because the 'distant' feeling is there even in solo on the close-mic.

 

[gabriel g.]

Sounds like it is the room.

Try some DIY acustic stuff, like putting a coach in one corner and lay down a thick carpet for example....or build some absorbers...

cheers

 

[Morgan C]

Yeah, I compared my OHs to yours (flipped phase on close mic tracks), and your OHs are also way more upfront. Mine are really reverby. I'll definitely be experimenting with deadening the room a bit when I get a chance.

 

[BLUElightCory]

You can also pull your OH mics in closer and make sure the kit is as far away from the walls as possible. Reflections from the walls and ceiling are likely bleeding into your mics and could also be causing (surprise!) phasing problems.

 

[aclarson]

Yeah, the OHs have a huge effect on the snare sound, and an untreated room will absolutely cause comb filtering and standing waves, producing the "phasey" and "distant" sound you describe. Build yourself some absorbers/traps! It is really critical to making a iffy space usable, more important than any mic or mic preamp, and far cheaper to upgrade. Look here: http://www.runet.edu/~shelm/acoustics/bass-traps.html

If you're really happy with the drum sound itself, that's a good start. For me, even with a great drummer, in my treated studio, it usually takes a while to get the snare sounding right. I usually spend a large amount of time on it actually, it's often the toughest sound in the whole mix, being so prominent, and well, LOUD. #1 place to improve the sound is on the heads, read the drum tuning bible if you haven't.

You have to be careful about what you do with one track or overall levels on each, every tweak changes the tone. For that reason, I usually go with simple eq or comp on room or OHs. I usually high-pass overheads so they are mainly cymbals, usually around 200-400Hz, no compression, and pan them about 75 L/R. I also usually low-pass a mono room mic, smash it, and pan it mono. Then I mic top and bottom of the snare, bottom polarity flipped.

I usually start with just OHs and room, get them matched at levels that sound good. Then bring in kick, do some quick tweaks. Then bring in top snare, do some quick tweaks. Get it sounding good without the bottom snare. Them when you bring it in, do just enough so it's only really bringing through the sound of the wires just enough. I usually get in a back-and-forth till it's pretty good on it's own. Then it's on to doing it again with every other instrument, back-and-forth, till everything is right. As you progress, your tweaks should get smaller and smaller, until they don't need anything at all.

 

[Morgan C]

Well, I've definitely nailed it down to being the room's fault. I remember listening to the latest Dream Theater effort (to call it an album would be too kind :/), and the snare sounded kinda distant at points, like mine, and I saw they recorded it at Avatar Studios, with a huge live drum room. I had to multitracks of Systematic Chaos, recorded at the same place, and the snare has the exact same 'problem'. It seems either you get huge ambience, or you get a tight tone. Although you can fake huge ambience with verb, etc. you can't really process in a tight tone. Tomorrow I'm going to try chucking a blanket over myself while recording the snare and post the difference with and without. I'm practically on holidays now so I'ma try and deaden the room a whole lot.

 

[lolzgreg]

I summon Glenn and Lasse to this thread. They're the king of natural drums 'round these parts.

 

[greyskull]

okay....
heres a top tip you may sometimes overlook.
is your snare sounding thin and struggling even when you whack the fader up....
flip the phase (invert the polarity whatever the fuck you wanna call it)

very often, even though you may for whatever reason believe that your snare is in phase with your overheads, often it isnt.
check when sound checking the kit; also check every drum in relation to the overheads and see whether pressing the ø makes it better.

 

[Morgan C]

okay....
heres a top tip you may sometimes overlook.
is your snare sounding thin and struggling even when you whack the fader up....
flip the phase (invert the polarity whatever the fuck you wanna call it)

very often, even though you may for whatever reason believe that your snare is in phase with your overheads, often it isnt.
check when sound checking the kit; also check every drum in relation to the overheads and see whether pressing the ø makes it better.

Thanks, but I know this. My problem is all the tracks, when solo'd, sound distant. Even the close-mic sounds like its far away from the snare drum. Makes it near-impossible to get an in-your-face sound.

 

[Seizure.]

I allways have it something like this, pointing to the middle:
http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/78/l_14de85a56bd6d9759e31674b268b49e5.jpg

And lately i like a chain like:
SPL attacker > compression (+ depends but mostly also saturation&gating), and then its useally a liiiiittle bit of EQ and some emt140 plate reverb.

 

[greyskull]

just had another listen to the snare clip..
sounds pretty damn good to me; nice lack of spill.... gate, eq compress, go home.

 

[PostMortem1666]

Listening to your clip I think it sounds fine it just needs more processing.