Regarding the misconception about being a "headliner"

[Metal_Camden]

The term "headliner" is honestly a word that I used to dream about daily. You know, once you do X and Y, you can become a headliner!!! and people come to see you!!!

THAT ISN'T HOW THINGS ARE TODAY IS IT?

I echoed this in the other "lack of crowd" thread and I'll bring it up again. People will laugh at all these support bands jumping on every tour but THEY will be the ones selling cds and swag to all the younger kids that will become or are already the start of the next gen and fans of the older generation. THEY will be the ones that will be packing hard rock 5 and 10 years from now. You don't want to stay a support band or opener forever but, if you consider and bill your band as a Headliner on a Headliner tour with a guarantee and draw worth a shit, Good luck getting that same guarantee at that venue again on the next tour, and then you will probably charge more!!!! Even a mighty band like Firewind is a testament to how Headliner tours work without the propper LIVE exposure via supporting bigger bands than they! Gus could easily get connections to NOT headline a show and to build firewind but he chooses not to do so from what I believe is pride via his success with ozzy. Firewind drew 50 guitarist from Florida to watch him shred, and the other 25 were Firewind fans that didn't play instruments. If firewind toured supporting Ozzy, then that would have probably put another 0 behind all those figures.

As far as placement of bands on tours, I know we can all agree that there is one specific person in charge of putting a LOT of metal bands together and booking their packages. There is a ring of barbed wire holding this entire genre, with the exception of a few names, here in the USA and that is NOT GOOD!!! Openers aren't always charged a buy on, and sometimes they actually make a few hundred bucks to help with gas. Just depends on who you know, how you know them and if they like your band or not with whatever reasoning to add. There is NO formula any more for getting anywhere in this industry TODAY, but rather who can outsmart who with smart decisions, moves and mostly,

Who you know, Who they know and do they like you?

Build your contacts, make them all really good friends and give it hell every day till something happens. Seems like a logical "today's" formula to me!

 

[J-Man]

And probably paid dearly for the privilege. The fact that they open for larger bands is not an *effect* of their increasing popularity, it's the *cause* of it. It's a sign that they (+Prosthetic) are willing to make an investment in their future. It's not like Dream Theater and Protest the Hero are saying "hmm, those Scale the Summit boys are now popular enough, let's ask them to come along with us!" It's more like "we'll take whoever is willing to pay the fee, even if it's Rebecca Black and her mom is paying the buy-on!"



Argh, you're still using the useless definition of "headliner". It has nothing to do with the size of their fanbase. They surely have already been a headliner, and have several headlining shows coming up in a couple weeks. They're doing them on off-days on the 3/Cynic tour. Probably very few people will show up, but it's a chance for them to make a few bucks on a day when they'd otherwise be losing money (and heck, even test the waters for what they can draw as a headliner before they risk putting together a whole tour as a headliner).

Neil

Neil I totally agree with your first point, their new gained popularity is was caused by them getting on the tours they have, and yes I am sure they paid dearly for it, as to the support from their label, well you have to ask the guys about that, i wouldn't know.
Second, i did not mean for the word "Headliner" to refer to the size of their fanbase, oh hell i don't know what i meant, I do know that they are doing some one-offs on this tour, and hopefully make a little money.

 

[Diabolik]

The term "headliner" is honestly a word that I used to dream about daily. You know, once you do X and Y, you can become a headliner!!! and people come to see you!!!

THAT ISN'T HOW THINGS ARE TODAY IS IT?

I echoed this in the other "lack of crowd" thread and I'll bring it up again. People will laugh at all these support bands jumping on every tour but THEY will be the ones selling cds and swag to all the younger kids that will become or are already the start of the next gen and fans of the older generation. THEY will be the ones that will be packing hard rock 5 and 10 years from now. You don't want to stay a support band or opener forever but, if you consider and bill your band as a Headliner on a Headliner tour with a guarantee and draw worth a shit, Good luck getting that same guarantee at that venue again on the next tour, and then you will probably charge more!!!! Even a mighty band like Firewind is a testament to how Headliner tours work without the propper LIVE exposure via supporting bigger bands than they! Gus could easily get connections to NOT headline a show and to build firewind but he chooses not to do so from what I believe is pride via his success with ozzy. Firewind drew 50 guitarist from Florida to watch him shred, and the other 25 were Firewind fans that didn't play instruments. If firewind toured supporting Ozzy, then that would have probably put another 0 behind all those figures.

As far as placement of bands on tours, I know we can all agree that there is one specific person in charge of putting a LOT of metal bands together and booking their packages. There is a ring of barbed wire holding this entire genre, with the exception of a few names, here in the USA and that is NOT GOOD!!! Openers aren't always charged a buy on, and sometimes they actually make a few hundred bucks to help with gas. Just depends on who you know, how you know them and if they like your band or not with whatever reasoning to add. There is NO formula any more for getting anywhere in this industry TODAY, but rather who can outsmart who with smart decisions, moves and mostly,

Who you know, Who they know and do they like you?

Build your contacts, make them all really good friends and give it hell every day till something happens. Seems like a logical "today's" formula to me!

you are wrong in one point....these young kids are not the ones who will be around supporting bands. Bands like Blackguard will eventually go away and the people who go to see them who in my opinion have zero taste in metal will also vanish and jump on the next trend. Just in the past 10 years I have seen people come and go at shows. It is a very small bunch who still show up. There were people that were at all the shows 8 years ago for a few years strong and then just stopped showing up. Sure these bands bring in the young kids but 95% of those kids are just stopping by this trend at the time and wont be there in a few years. It is the people who are dedicated and enjoy the music and going to shows.

I have also seen so many bands who were going to be huge one day or flavor of the month come and go so quick. memebers from those bands also just vanish.
There really is no one factor why shows are empty as of late.

Asides pointing fingers at the fans...how about the bands. People dont want to sit at shows with 4 local acts playing. When local acts play....do short sets...no longer than 30 minutes. You should make us want more and not asking how much longer till they are off. There has been threads before about what local bands should and should not do before here. I put as much blame on them as I do the fans for not coming out.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

Asides pointing fingers at the fans...how about the bands. People dont want to sit at shows with 4 local acts playing. When local acts play....do short sets...no longer than 30 minutes. You should make us want more and not asking how much longer till they are off. There has been threads before about what local bands should and should not do before here. I put as much blame on them as I do the fans for not coming out.

Ouch. Even when the locals are really good? I remember seeing Sonata Actica the first time, and there was a local band who was so good I thought they were on tour with SA. Not saying an hour would be good, but I don't like seeing locals rush when they're actually worth listening to.

 

[Metal_Camden]

you are wrong in one point....these young kids are not the ones who will be around supporting bands. Bands like Blackguard will eventually go away and the people who go to see them who in my opinion have zero taste in metal will also vanish and jump on the next trend. Just in the past 10 years I have seen people come and go at shows. It is a very small bunch who still show up. There were people that were at all the shows 8 years ago for a few years strong and then just stopped showing up. Sure these bands bring in the young kids but 95% of those kids are just stopping by this trend at the time and wont be there in a few years. It is the people who are dedicated and enjoy the music and going to shows.

I have also seen so many bands who were going to be huge one day or flavor of the month come and go so quick. memebers from those bands also just vanish.
There really is no one factor why shows are empty as of late.

Asides pointing fingers at the fans...how about the bands. People dont want to sit at shows with 4 local acts playing. When local acts play....do short sets...no longer than 30 minutes. You should make us want more and not asking how much longer till they are off. There has been threads before about what local bands should and should not do before here. I put as much blame on them as I do the fans for not coming out.

well I still disagree.

Take blackguard for example. Whether you like it or not their fanbase is increasing with every tour. More little kids through the door, within the 3-5 year period or not, their numbers are increasing constantly. Venues know them because they are touring more than even nationals here in the states!!! Regardless of whether it's the same kids or not, years from now they will still have an increased draw where a venue would rather pay them a grand with a smaller draw than several thousand for Firewind. This is the point I'm making. I also would think that that band WILL be around for a while. They are young and now it's in their blood.

Also it's not fair to base the local support on the bands themselves. It's the venues that are trying to monger more ticket sales if the headliner isn't cutting it with presales. Venue people don't have time to screen every band that plays. They hear "were in an awesome metal band and we can move 50+ tickets" which translates to the extra $1250 to pay for the ridiculous catering rider.

So the finger needs to go to the venues. or the headliner for putting a venue I'm the position where they had to do something like that. If some of these headliners take less money (which they won't) then we would see this disappear. OR you get lucky with a middle man promoter like myself or Hoyt. That actually place good bands on nationals.

And what freaking venue puts 4 locals on?? The only time that has ever happened in Orlando was at a wasp show, which made it a complete disaster. Needless to say ive fixed that down here.

 

[Diabolik]

we get 4 or more locals at Chicago shows. It kills the show since the club has it run late and people leave before the headliner.

Doesnt matter if the openers are good....there is no reason for them to play over 30 minutes. If it is an act on tour with the headliner...sure play longer. But local acts should never have more than 30 minutes.

Sorry....Blackguard will never be a name to watch out for. They have turned themselves into a joke in the metal community. Who will ever hope to see them do a headlining set???? They did a video shoot and a headlining show in Chicago and from what I heard there was at most 30 people there. I am sure touring really helped them out there. If all this touring and getting young fans into them is boosting them, why are they still playing to no one on thier own?

Not to sway this discussion away fromt he topic on hand.....like many have said...any band can headline...you have to be realistic when doing it though. Just because you draw well locally doesnt mean you will draw the same in another state.

 

[skyrefuge]

And what freaking venue puts 4 locals on??

heh, none. That's something out of one of Diabolik's fever-dreams, which must be where gets a lot of his statements that exist outside of reality. I'm sure there was one show way back sometime in Chicago that had four local openers, but it's certainly not a common thing.

Of the 53 metal shows I've been to in the last two years, *one* of them had 3 local openers; the touring band was Tyr, all by themselves, so 4 bands total on the bill. Eight of the shows had 2 local openers, and again, every one of those 8 had only a single touring band, for 3 bands total. The rest of the shows had either one local opener or none.

I love though how the I-must-complain-about-something-even-if-I-have-to-invent-it fantasy has just gotten wilder, and now it's "4 or more"

 

[skyrefuge]

Alright, since this is well on its way to becoming another Blackguard/touring thread, it inspired me to look up the last thread. 11 months ago in that thread, Jasonic posted last.fm listener counts for six bands.

First, "three current bands that tour A LOT": Blackguard, Mutiny Within, and Powerglove.

And in an attempt to show how not touring helps grow your fanbase, "three bands who are well respected in the underground metal community who do not tour regularly": Agalloch, Novembers Doom, and Saturnus.

11 months later, let's see how their listener counts have changed:

Blackguard: +54%
Mutiny Within: +36%
Powerglove: +35%
Saturnus: +32%
Agalloch: +20%
Novembers Doom: +14%

What shocking results! It's small sample set, but within it, the band that by far toured the most over the last two years, Blackguard (273 shows), also won the fanbase competition by a large margin. And the band that toured the least, Novembers Doom (11 shows) grew the least. Hmm, maybe those of us who think touring can grow your fanbase aren't so crazy after all!

Neil

 

[nomisofsiman]

Alright, since this is well on its way to becoming another Blackguard/touring thread, it inspired me to look up the last thread. 11 months ago in that thread, Jasonic posted last.fm listener counts for six bands.

First, "three current bands that tour A LOT": Blackguard, Mutiny Within, and Powerglove.

And in an attempt to show how not touring helps grow your fanbase, "three bands who are well respected in the underground metal community who do not tour regularly": Agalloch, Novembers Doom, and Saturnus.

11 months later, let's see how their listener counts have changed:

Blackguard: +54%
Mutiny Within: +36%
Powerglove: +35%
Saturnus: +32%
Agalloch: +20%
Novembers Doom: +14%

What shocking results! It's small sample set, but within it, the band that by far toured the most over the last two years, Blackguard (273 shows), also won the fanbase competition by a large margin. And the band that toured the least, Novembers Doom (11 shows) grew the least. Hmm, maybe those of us who think touring can grow your fanbase aren't so crazy after all!

Neil

Neil, with all due respect, that is a terrible comparison. You basically just picked three new bands against three older bands that already have a solid fanbase in place. Of course they aren't going to grow as much as the newer bands.

As a sidenote: please God almighty let's not have another "Blackguard" thread.

 

[Creeps]

Sorry, but we can agree to disagree... what I saw was not only various show stealers but headline performances. If you recall, if you were there, CIIC packed the joint at PP and it kinda cleared out a bit after. Same with some other bands I didn't mention... Tad Morose, Brainstorm, Silent Force (put on a metal 101 lesson).. What happened during Rage? Symphony X? The place cleared out a lot, in one instance more than another. So, by your definition of a headliner that brings in people my statement was correct

Anyhow... crank the new Brainstorm and happy posting!!

 

[TychoCelchu]

Not important to the thread but I have been to many shows where the amount of opening bands equaled (at least) the amount of touring bands. I was convinced for years that Harpo's was on a die-hard mission to showcase the worst crap southeast Michigan had to offer, three or four times per show, with no repeats. It is also common practice out at the Palladium (just got back from the Gwar show there a few minutes ago, it was hilarious) to put an equal number of local openers as touring bands, but I don't mind that since they are usually upstairs on a different stage.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

heh, none. That's something out of one of Diabolik's fever-dreams, which must be where gets a lot of his statements that exist outside of reality.

Well, back when I was with my first band, Jaxx wasn't above having 4 locals go on before the headliner. As a matter of fact, I think that Sonata Actica show I saw had at least 3.

 

[Metal_Camden]

I would also like to point out that when any sort of touring thread comes up who gets brought up?

BLACKGUARD

When anyone has a thread about anything somehow

BLACKGUARD

gets mentioned. When talking about concerts and openers

BLACKGUARD

gets mentioned. When all of us bitch about something one of us mentions

BLACKGUARD

When all of these little kids with ADTR lyrics tattoo'd on their chests get the Victory sampler and hear crazy shredding for the first time, they are all like OMG,

BLACKGUARD

then tell all their friends who play guitar to go check out

BLACKGUARD

because they have become a crossover band from touring, touring, touring and getting picked up by Victory here in the states.

Point being, regardless of good or bad press, BLACKGUARD is getting talked about ALL THE TIME. Even from all of you people that hate them. Actually, you guys are the ones that talk the most about them! hahaa!

Press is press when it comes to that Label it seems but man are they good at it. Its all personal taste. I wouldn't leap to the store when their CD comes out but I would at least give it a fair listen. I watch my little cousin's crowd a lot and I can speak from first hand experience that they are making noise and lots of it with younger kids. Again, Numbers TODAY. Not launching into speculation of where they will be in 3-5 years. Young kids are downloading everything, and then going to concerts, so don't be surprised when Blackguards numbers come out and 60% of their sales are missing in relation to the demographic of their fans.

NOW

Regarding a Headliner topic. They Headlined a Euro tour, "legitimacy" is of course up to speculation, but still, they got BOOKED for it and none of the shows were canceled. That alone is more than any "newer" band could ever ask for. That is just a testament to their work. 30 people or not (which i highly doubt) that is still considered a huge success from lots of peoples point of view.

 

[Diabolik]

Blackguard are mentioned as a joke in most discussions. They will never be headlining caliber.

 

[TychoCelchu]

They headlined a show in NH earlier this year. I didn't go but they had Gigan and even Neuraxis opening for them. Granted it was just one show. I think it was an off day from some other tour they were on at the time.

 

[Creeps]

Blackguard are mentioned as a joke in most discussions. They will never be headlining caliber.

I have learned to never say never.

 

[AngraRULES]

these young kids are not the ones who will be around supporting bands.

How do you know?

people who go to see them who in my opinion have zero taste in metal

Nothing like an arrogant, snobby comment.

Asides pointing fingers at the fans...how about the bands. People dont want to sit at shows with 4 local acts playing. When local acts play....do short sets...no longer than 30 minutes. You should make us want more and not asking how much longer till they are off. There has been threads before about what local bands should and should not do before here. I put as much blame on them as I do the fans for not coming out.

I kind of agree with you there as well, but it's not just the band's fault... It's usually the local promoters who decide to throw an X number of locals in the show to sell tickets. I hate that as much as you.

Sure, most locals don't help either...

 

[AngraRULES]

And what freaking venue puts 4 locals on?? The only time that has ever happened in Orlando was at a wasp show, which made it a complete disaster. Needless to say ive fixed that down here.

Lots of them do. You'd be surprised.

 

[AngraRULES]

any band can headline...you have to be realistic when doing it though. Just because you draw well locally doesnt mean you will draw the same in another state.

Now we're talking. Agreed 100%. And some people JUST DON'T GET THAT.

 

[AngraRULES]

heh, none. That's something out of one of Diabolik's fever-dreams, which must be where gets a lot of his statements that exist outside of reality. I'm sure there was one show way back sometime in Chicago that had four local openers, but it's certainly not a common thing.

You're wrong. Maybe in your center of the universe (Chicago) promoters don't pull that as much. You'd be surprised to see how much that actually happens.