Scandinavia?

[Patrick R.]

In Germany, we have our problems to solve, and in Turkey, they have theirs. I never saw a foreigner come to Germany and say: "Hey, you are in need of more kindergartens? We spend you some!"

quote]

Really??! I guess you never heard of the Marshall plan then, huh? I believe it was Germany that recieved a whole shit load of money to build "kindergardens" etc, to rebuild their then war torn country.
Not that your point is off or anything, I don't believe in that kind of aid either, but to be fair, the reason that a German can sit here in the western world and have the luxury to think like you do (i.e. freely) has much to do with available natural resourses and such, but it also has to do with the Marshall plan. It would have taken you a lot longer to rebuild without it.

Tyra is silly, she thinks Germany’s success has to do with the “Marshall plan”. What about Nazi Germany? They were one of the richest nations on the planet, until allied bombardment and destruction of their major cities using incendiary devises. Dresden for example was turned into a fire place at the end of the war, killing civilians who were completely innocent. They didn’t need a “Marshall plan”, what they needed was for the allies to mind their own business. It was the allies fault they were in such economic decay after world war II. Look at Germany after world war I, it took a lot of technical and political success to unite the German states into a single nation. It finally happened thanks to Otto von Bismarck and they were united formally on January 18 1871. After world war I, their economy was completely destroyed, their currency was worthless…literally. But then Hitler and the Nazi party came to power in 1933 and Germany became one of the richest nations in the world, defying many of their treacherous neighbors in the process.

 

[Celtik Militia]

Tyra is silly, she thinks Germany’s success has to do with the “Marshall plan”. What about Nazi Germany? They were one of the richest nations on the planet, until allied bombardment and destruction of their major cities using incendiary devises. Dresden for example was turned into a fire place at the end of the war, killing civilians who were completely innocent. They didn’t need a “Marshall plan”, what they needed was for the allies to mind their own business. It was the allies fault they were in such economic decay after world war II. Look at Germany after world war I, it took a lot of technical and political success to unite the German states into a single nation. It finally happened thanks to Otto von Bismarck and they were united formally on January 18 1871. After world war I, their economy was completely destroyed, their currency was worthless…literally. But then Hitler and the Nazi party came to power in 1933 and Germany became one of the richest nations in the world, defying many of their treacherous neighbors in the process.

"Treacherous neighbors" wouldn't be the right term for this.. "treacherous" is rightfully applied, for example, when a country invades another by passing by a neutral country like Belgium. That is in total disrespect of the treaties of warfare they signed, hence treacherous..

But all in all you do point out pertinent remarks.. Germany has had top scientists and other educated people for a while, which is surely one of the most important reason why they survived economical crisis like that of the 1920s.


@Beave : no problem man

 

[Phelice]

Tyra is silly, she thinks Germany’s success has to do with the “Marshall plan”. What about Nazi Germany? They were one of the richest nations on the planet, until allied bombardment and destruction of their major cities using incendiary devises. Dresden for example was turned into a fire place at the end of the war, killing civilians who were completely innocent. They didn’t need a “Marshall plan”, what they needed was for the allies to mind their own business. It was the allies fault they were in such economic decay after world war II. Look at Germany after world war I, it took a lot of technical and political success to unite the German states into a single nation. It finally happened thanks to Otto von Bismarck and they were united formally on January 18 1871. After world war I, their economy was completely destroyed, their currency was worthless…literally. But then Hitler and the Nazi party came to power in 1933 and Germany became one of the richest nations in the world, defying many of their treacherous neighbors in the process.

Gonna code something instead of commenting this post (at least the tiny little part that I understood):

10 HEAD --> WALL
20 GOTO 10
RUN

(It is BASIC btw.)






You guys stop please to call each other names. Beave, Tyra and Celtik are honorable persons. At least from what I can tell tho.

 

[Sonia G]

Tyra is silly, she thinks Germany’s success has to do with the “Marshall plan”. What about Nazi Germany? They were one of the richest nations on the planet, until allied bombardment and destruction of their major cities using incendiary devises.........
But then Hitler and the Nazi party came to power in 1933 and Germany became one of the richest nations in the world, defying many of their treacherous neighbors in the process.

I think you should have thought carefully before saying the first three words of your post. If you read her posts, you will find that she has knowledge enough to be able to talk about Marshall plan or about any other hystorical fact and that she's not exactly a silly person, you can learn lots of things reading her comments. Believe me.
And about your comment about Hitler and the Nazi party, and the fact that they made Germany to become one of the richest nations in the world and so on... well, I'm nearly sure that the most of German citizens don't feel exactly proud of that period of their history I don't know if you've heard anytime about the holocaust... maybe you've never heard anything about it...

 

[Phelice]

At least one who understands what I wanted to say.
Besides Beave, Tyra and Celtik, of course

 

[Tyra]

Tyra is silly, she thinks Germany’s success has to do with the “Marshall plan”. What about Nazi Germany? They were one of the richest nations on the planet, until allied bombardment and destruction of their major cities using incendiary devises. Dresden for example was turned into a fire place at the end of the war, killing civilians who were completely innocent. They didn’t need a “Marshall plan”, what they needed was for the allies to mind their own business. It was the allies fault they were in such economic decay after world war II. Look at Germany after world war I, it took a lot of technical and political success to unite the German states into a single nation. It finally happened thanks to Otto von Bismarck and they were united formally on January 18 1871. After world war I, their economy was completely destroyed, their currency was worthless…literally. But then Hitler and the Nazi party came to power in 1933 and Germany became one of the richest nations in the world, defying many of their treacherous neighbors in the process.

Paddy, I wrote "they had a hell of a lot more in terms of resources and opportunity to rebuild than, say, your average Afghani" specifically to address the point of why it is the Germans could bounce back as quickly as they did. They have resourses other than oil, and, unlike some people, they even allowed their women to walk around in broad daylight without a chaperone... I never, ever, at any point said that the Germans became a prosperous nation due to the Marshall plan. I only said that Phelice was inaccurate in her statament that the Germans have never received freebees from others, and that was only because I feel we should not forget our own history, even if it is one we are not very proud of, or we're bound to repeat the same mistakes again and again. Mind you, apparently there are still some who would like to go back to Good Old Adolf's days, just like some would prefer to be living in the time of Stalin or Pol Pot. As for me, I am happy to be living in the here and now, with all the things we have and all the safetly that involves, having learned from the struggles of my ancestors. It is the goal of most parents that their children should be better off than they, and not have to struggle like they did. There's a reason for that.

Having said that, I do not agree with your assessment of the German economy pre WW I, but that's a whole another ball of wax and totally o/t.

 

[Trashhead]

I think you should have thought carefully before saying the first three words of your post. If you read her posts, you will find that she has knowledge enough to be able to talk about Marshall plan or about any other hystorical fact and that she's not exactly a silly person, you can learn lots of things reading her comments. Believe me.
And about your comment about Hitler and the Nazi party, and the fact that they made Germany to become one of the richest nations in the world and so on... well, I'm nearly sure that the most of German citizens don't feel exactly proud of that period of their history I don't know if you've heard anytime about the holocaust... maybe you've never heard anything about it...

Well, that last bit would be an entirely different thing if the germans had won the war, wouldn't it? It's the victor's prerogative to write the books of history. And just like 'terrorist' can be turned into 'freedom fighter' and vice versa so can 'holocaust' be turned into 'the purifying cleanse that pruned the german nation of it's weaknesses to make it evolve to the superior power on earth.'

I'm just saying, potayto, potahto.

 

[Beave]

Well, that last bit would be an entirely different thing if the germans had won the war, wouldn't it? It's the victor's prerogative to write the books of history. And just like 'terrorist' can be turned into 'freedom fighter' and vice versa so can 'holocaust' be turned into 'the purifying cleanse that pruned the german nation of it's weaknesses to make it evolve to the superior power on earth.'

I'm just saying, potayto, potahto.

Good point. The victors have plenty of blood on their hands too, but they rarely acknowledge it. Chomsky might be an anarchist wacko, but it's like he said, "If the Nuremberg Laws were applied today, then every Post-War American president would have to be hanged."

 

[Bates]

Most of my family who lived in Germany during those times say different, and it's their word I tend to take.

 

[Patrick R.]

Paddy, I wrote "they had a hell of a lot more in terms of resources and opportunity to rebuild than, say, your average Afghani" specifically to address the point of why it is the Germans could bounce back as quickly as they did. They have resourses other than oil, and, unlike some people, they even allowed their women to walk around in broad daylight without a chaperone... I never, ever, at any point said that the Germans became a prosperous nation due to the Marshall plan. I only said that Phelice was inaccurate in her statament that the Germans have never received freebees from others, and that was only because I feel we should not forget our own history, even if it is one we are not very proud of, or we're bound to repeat the same mistakes again and again. Mind you, apparently there are still some who would like to go back to Good Old Adolf's days, just like some would prefer to be living in the time of Stalin or Pol Pot. As for me, I am happy to be living in the here and now, with all the things we have and all the safetly that involves, having learned from the struggles of my ancestors. It is the goal of most parents that their children should be better off than they, and not have to struggle like they did. There's a reason for that.

Having said that, I do not agree with your assessment of the German economy pre WW I, but that's a whole another ball of wax and totally o/t.

Yes, the subject has to do with rebuilding, according to you Germany had more resources and opportunity to rebuild because they had a “shit load” of money handed to them. I say, they didn’t need a cent to rebuild their nation from the allies who destroyed their nation (the Soviet Union, Great Britain, and America.) They would of done just fine without it. As Beave pointed out correctly, the allies finally came to their senses and they used German economic recovery to counter the Soviet Union. The Americans even robbed Germany of their Nazi rocket scientist, who later were influential in the of NASA.

But in any case, German success without the Marshall Plan is a theoretical example, an actual practical example is Nazi Germany that became one of the richest nations on the planet. World War I ended in 1918, throughout the 1920’s Germany’s economy was sinking, when French and Belgium troops occupied their Ruhr region at the heart of their coal and steel industries caused their economy to strain even more, to the point where they reached hyperinflation in 1923. Their money eventually became worthless, and they still had to pay war reparations.

Despite this, when Hitler and the Nazis came to power on January 18 1933 Germany was still bankrupt, millions were unemployed, and they were still antagonized by the victors of the first world war. The Germans who lived in the 1920’s didn’t have the resources or opportunity then say, you average Afghani of today…they didn’t even have a stable currency. They only had opportunity after they worked hard for it, Hitler had support from the labor force and they no longer went on strike. Adolf Hitler closed the trade unions and transferred their staff and members and created the German Labor Front (DAF), which was the largest trade union in the world at that time. (David Irving Hitler’s War updated April 13 2001 edition page 45). In the end of all Hitler’s economic reforms, Germany was not only rebuilt after the first world war, but one of the most rich and powerful nations in the world.

In any case, I see your point crystal clear with regards to Afghanistan, and it is a good one.

 

[Patrick R.]

I think you should have thought carefully before saying the first three words of your post. If you read her posts, you will find that she has knowledge enough to be able to talk about Marshall plan or about any other hystorical fact and that she's not exactly a silly person, you can learn lots of things reading her comments. Believe me.
And about your comment about Hitler and the Nazi party, and the fact that they made Germany to become one of the richest nations in the world and so on... well, I'm nearly sure that the most of German citizens don't feel exactly proud of that period of their history I don't know if you've heard anytime about the holocaust... maybe you've never heard anything about it...

I don’t think she is stupid, on the contrary, I think she is smart and I hope she avoids being sucked in by popular culture and popular history. I believe she thinks independently, I only said she was silly to make her think harder and do as much research, so she doesn’t follow “consensus” world war II history. Yes I’ve heard of the Holocaust, we’ve all heard about the Nazi atrocities, but we’ve completely ignored what America and Great Britain have done to innocent women and children, such as burning them alive. That was one of they key military strategies of the United States federal government and the generals, bomb the civilians to break German resistance. They were to cowardly to attack the small Nazi army, so instead they murdered the civilian population of Germany. The same is true with Japanese women and children.

All of this, while the West allowed the Soviet Union to become so powerful and massive, to the point where that nation became a beast that threatened the entire world. The Marxist philosophy continued to spread across the globe, killing millions of people in the process, from China, Cambodia, all the way to Latin America. This is almost completely ignored in the Western world, and I’m afraid to say, the true nature of the horrors of world war II and the horrors that continued since that time has hardly been addressed in full detail. The worst part of all is that same government who were victories after the second world war (America and Great Britain) are still waging aggressive war against defenseless Middle Easterners. It is time the Western governments develop and embrace a novel philosophy that doesn’t use their “greatness” of the second world war as an excuse to invade other countries or down play their own crimes.

 

[Vegetarian]

I don’t think she is stupid, on the contrary, I think she is smart and I hope she avoids being sucked in by popular culture and popular history. I believe she thinks independently, I only said she was silly to make her think harder and do as much research, so she doesn’t follow “consensus” world war II history. Yes I’ve heard of the Holocaust, we’ve all heard about the Nazi atrocities, but we’ve completely ignored what America and Great Britain have done to innocent women and children, such as burning them alive. That was one of they key military strategies of the United States federal government and the generals, bomb the civilians to break German resistance. They were to cowardly to attack the small Nazi army, so instead they murdered the civilian population of Germany. The same is true with Japanese women and children.

All of this, while the West allowed the Soviet Union to become so powerful and massive, to the point where that nation became a beast that threatened the entire world. The Marxist philosophy continued to spread across the globe, killing millions of people in the process, from China, Cambodia, all the way to Latin America. This is almost completely ignored in the Western world, and I’m afraid to say, the true nature of the horrors of world war II and the horrors that continued since that time has hardly been addressed in full detail. The worst part of all is that same government who were victories after the second world war (America and Great Britain) are still waging aggressive war against defenseless Middle Easterners. It is time the Western governments develop and embrace a novel philosophy that doesn’t use their “greatness” of the second world war as an excuse to invade other countries or down play their own crimes.

Wow, easily the most bullshit thing I've read all week.

 

[Patrick R.]

Wow, easily the most bullshit thing I've read all week.

Because you're biased, as is evidenced by you're scholarly reply.

 

[Patrick R.]

"Treacherous neighbors" wouldn't be the right term for this.. "treacherous" is rightfully applied, for example, when a country invades another by passing by a neutral country like Belgium. That is in total disrespect of the treaties of warfare they signed, hence treacherous..

But all in all you do point out pertinent remarks.. Germany has had top scientists and other educated people for a while, which is surely one of the most important reason why they survived economical crisis like that of the 1920s.


@Beave : no problem man

Exactly my point, the disarmed enemy (Germany) was very vulnerable to their revengeful neighbors such as the people who forced Germany to accept the massive war reparations, as detailed in the Treaty of Versailles. I'm not saying the German Empire was completely innocent, nor am I saying that they were responsible for world war I, as their were other political agendas at work. Not all neighboring European peoples hated Germans, it is was mainly people who were politically motivated. Indeed, many French people were opposed to the carnage and mass rape of German women and children after world war II by American and Soviet "soldiers". As far as "breaking treaties" is concerned, I think we should take a look at our own governments before pointing our fingers at other nations. That is one of the great lessons of history, governments have a tendency to brain wash their civilians to believe they are the “good guys” whereas the enemy is the bad guy.

 

[Vegetarian]

Because you're biased, as is evidenced by you're scholarly reply.

Who isn't biased?

 

[Patrick R.]

Who isn't biased?

Very good question.

 

[Phelice]

SO... because I feel a bit uncomfortable with my country in the middle of a discussion like this, plus I don't have any idea about history: Can we go back on topic?

I would like to visit Sweden tho. My boyfriends uncle is living there in a house and stuff. And we will go there and do everything that tourists do and stuff and so on. You know?






^^

 

[Patrick R.]

SO... because I feel a bit uncomfortable with my country in the middle of a discussion like this, plus I don't have any idea about history: Can we go back on topic?

I would like to visit Sweden tho. My boyfriends uncle is living there in a house and stuff. And we will go there and do everything that tourists do and stuff and so on. You know?






^^

Germany's history is massive and rich. Many Westerners, including those who live in the Federal Republic of Germany are unaware of what a "German" is, so therefore understanding the history of Germany becomes increasingly difficult. The Germans are a linguistic and cultural group, throughout history the Germans have lived under various states that were independent from one another. Two notable examples include Austria and Prussia, it was only until January 18 1871 that these various German states were unified under Prussian leadership. Don't feel guilty,the Western allies were just as bad as the Nazis...the same Western allies that turned Dresden into a fire place at the end of world war II despite the fact the these civilians that died were no threat to America and Great Britain.

 

[Vegetarian]

Germany's history is massive and rich. Many Westerners, including those who live in the Federal Republic of Germany are unaware of what a "German" is, so therefore understanding the history of Germany becomes increasingly difficult. The Germans are a linguistic and cultural group, throughout history the Germans have lived under various states that were independent from one another. Two notable examples include Austria and Prussia, it was only until January 18 1871 that these various German states were unified under Prussian leadership. Don't feel guilty,the Western allies were just as bad as the Nazis...the same Western allies that turned Dresden into a fire place at the end of world war II despite the fact the these civilians that died were no threat to America and Great Britain.

As much as I hate America, you have to admit that the US did not systematically kill 11 million innocent people in World War 2.

 

[Patrick R.]

As much as I hate America, you have to admit that the US did not systematically kill 11 million innocent people in World War 2.

I don't hate America, I hate the actions of our government, like I said, it is time they create a novel philosophy that doesn't claim that we are the "good guys" who are morally superior to everyone else. We also need a government that doesn't wage war against defenseless nations. America and Great Britain may not have murdered "11 million" but they killed a millions of innocent German civilians directly, and indirectly killed millions because they assisted the Soviet Union, a nation that eventually murdered and raped their way across Europe and killed ethnic Russians who didn't embrace Bolshevism.