science debate thread
- Thread starter Cythraul
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Dak
mentat
I am not trying to answer a non-existent argument, I am pointing out the way that biological problems should be treated. The question that should be asked whenever facing a biological problem should be "What am I deficient in?" not "How do I make it stop?" because stopping a symptom is entirely different from fixing a problem. All medications are symptom fixers.
@Savern: Your post just backs up what I am saying basically.
V.V.V.V.V.
Houses Ov Mercury
Dak
mentat
Malnutrition = weaker immune systems. Also, over-sterilization can create a situation where the good/bad bacteria balance is out of balance opening the door to "stronger" bad bacteria that normally would have been kept in check. MRSA in hospitals is a perfect example.
I am not saying in a bad situation you can't use medication once all other avenues have been tried, but there are always negative side affects on your body. Strengthening your body through better nutrition never has a negative side effect.
I am not saying in a bad situation you can't use medication once all other avenues have been tried, but there are always negative side affects on your body. Strengthening your body through better nutrition never has a negative side effect.
But there are occurances of both mental and physical issues that have nothing to do with nutrition. I dont promote medication as answers either but also realize I have been blessed with amazingly good health. Some peoples bodies just dont function 100%
Dak
mentat
Your mental and physical health are somewhat co-dependent, but I don't know anyone who regularly exercises and eats healthy/supplements and still has to take a bunch of meds/is sick regularly.
On the flip side, I know plenty of people who just sit around and eat junk food and all of them have problems/ are on meds.
On the flip side, I know plenty of people who just sit around and eat junk food and all of them have problems/ are on meds.
V.V.V.V.V.
Houses Ov Mercury
Dak
mentat
V.V.V.V.V.
Houses Ov Mercury
Savern
Dr. Death in training
I would say that you overestimate the importance of nutrition in immunity and health Dakryn. It tends to only really have an effect in severe mal-nutrition, which the majority of people do not suffer from.
And I don't exactly see how I backed up your argument. I showed you that anti-depressants increase natural neurotransmitter levels that help adjust the low mood that is present in Depression. An awful lot of medication acts in a similar fashion.
The end aim of any disease that a doctor is treating is a full cure. Anyone who is overweight, hypertensive and or diabetic is going to be told to lose weight, improve diet and exercise. But to reduce immediate risk they'll also be given ACE inhibitors, etc. to lower their BP while they adjust their lifestyle. If not then they're at much higher risk of Stroke and MI - obviously not a positive outcome. I accept that there are some diseases where a full cure is not possible.
Not all people take the advice they're given, but I think you have a somewhat distorted view of the actual aims, workings and reasoning of most medication. Suggesting all medication only treats the symptoms is pretty rediculous when you think about Chemotherapy.
And I don't exactly see how I backed up your argument. I showed you that anti-depressants increase natural neurotransmitter levels that help adjust the low mood that is present in Depression. An awful lot of medication acts in a similar fashion.
The end aim of any disease that a doctor is treating is a full cure. Anyone who is overweight, hypertensive and or diabetic is going to be told to lose weight, improve diet and exercise. But to reduce immediate risk they'll also be given ACE inhibitors, etc. to lower their BP while they adjust their lifestyle. If not then they're at much higher risk of Stroke and MI - obviously not a positive outcome. I accept that there are some diseases where a full cure is not possible.
Not all people take the advice they're given, but I think you have a somewhat distorted view of the actual aims, workings and reasoning of most medication. Suggesting all medication only treats the symptoms is pretty rediculous when you think about Chemotherapy.
still no answers for manic depressive, bi-polar temperments, being totally wacked, anerexic (scuse my spelling as always), obsessive compulsive and other issues, maybe you havent seen it first hand. My point is those without such issues should be greatful and not pose to know the answers. At one time I always felt through strong mental "power" one could control their quirks but no longer believe that to be true in more complex issues.
Sorry but my belief is you have the non-arguement and apparent non exposure
Sorry but my belief is you have the non-arguement and apparent non exposure
Dak
mentat
Really think hard about that statement.
Sever malnutrition is not just "not getting enough to eat". You can get tons of calories and not be getting a proper amount of any given vitamin or mineral, or worse, getting tons of toxins instead (which is the case with all the fast food and processed food in the American diet).
Exactly, the cause is not addressed, merely the symptom of abnormal neurotransmitter levels.
You just contradicted your first statement. Regarding "uncurable diseases", they are out there (like AIDS for instance), but for many diseases that "modern medicine" can't cure, or can't past certain levels of advancement, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there that natural solutions have cured it.
"Scientific evidence" is lacking because if these people become better, they go on about their life, not to mention they did it seperate from the medical establishment, so it's not like it is going to be promoted. Medicine is just as much a business as anything else out there, and merely interested in it's survival.
"Natural health" involves business too, but not on the same level, and considering you could technically grow/make everything yourself, it's a far cry from needing someone with 8+ years in college and some toxins from a lab with a positive side effect.
Chemotherapy merely kills cells, healthy and cancerous. It doesn't address what caused cancer in the first place.
Dak
mentat
Regarding serious mental halth issues as described above, some can be attributed to genetics (whole different issue to get into), and some come from traumtizing situations in a persons early life.
I have known a couple of bi-polar people, and both came from extremely unstable home situations growing up. I would venture to guess this is the case in almost all bi-polar situations.
Mental "quirks" can have so many varying causes, but in many cases it has to do with abuse/instability growing up (which is really broad)/poor nutrition.
Funny I always found many health food people to seem slightly to seriously wacked. Never thought about that till you brought all this up. My father remarried a serious wack job, she did everything to perfect specified standards, was fit, physically healthy, extremely intelligent, top shelf job but what she was most fit for was to be tied in a straight jacket and locked in a rubber room.
My last girlfriend... hardly a "girl" was anorexic and obsessive compulsive her whole life she had a normal childhood as per the era we grew up in. She is extremely successful, a very happy and social person, lived a normal eventful life but 0 control over these two disorders and could not be reasoned with when she brought the subjects up, she would only say "you just dont understand, its not that simple". The rest of her family was "normal" but somewhere back there was a suicide.
So if you admit some things are inherit genetic than you would have to agree some things can not be "fixed" with a vegtable garden.
Savern
Dr. Death in training
Of course it is a factor. I didn't say it wasn't, but you appear to not be taking account of human physiology. I agree that a poor diet, regularly lacking in vitamins and essential AA's/fats is going to cause poor growth, and lower than average health. You appear to be suggesting that by having a perfect diet, you make yourself immune by a far higher level than is actually true.
But modern medicine uses counselling, CBT etc. to treat and identify the cause. I accept anti-depressants are a stop-gap but I don't understand your aggression towards them.
Anecdotal evidence is not an excuse. Until these "natural" cures have been throughly tested and stastically proven I remain a sceptic. You do realise that the majority of modern medication stems from naturally occuring substances? Most obvious example is Digoxin (Foxglove). However, "natural" substances usually contain lots of crap that you don't want, and cause other side effects. Drugs are improved, refined versions of these. (Albeit still with side-effects)
I can only quote Tim Mincham here.. "You know what they call Alternative Medicine thats been proved to work? MEDICINE!"
Majority of healthcare professionals would say that Cancer is the disease. Its the tumour that causes all the problems. Trying to identify the cause of a tumour, unless its a returning one, is somewhat difficult. Unless the patient is a chain smoking 45 year old with Lung cancer, or someone with Malignant Melanoma and an addiction to sunbeds, its pretty much boils down to luck.
Chemotherapy isn't perfect I agree, but its one of the most effective interventions at the moment.
Savern
Dr. Death in training
@ Razoredge
Mental health problems are difficult. Bi-polar has a strong genetic link thats been shown in twin studies. Uni-polar depression isn't particularly genetic (although Family history is a risk factor)
As for stuff like OCD and Anorexia - You say she had a normal childhood, good family etc. But did she feel pressured to look pretty? Achieve at school? Compete with siblings? On the outside she might have had lots of a priviledges, but that doesn't mean she wasn't exposed to traumatic stresses that she couldn't deal with. Theres lots of factors that could contribute to body image and anxiety disorders. For whatever reason (genetic, brain structure...) some people get them others don't.
Mental health problems are difficult. Bi-polar has a strong genetic link thats been shown in twin studies. Uni-polar depression isn't particularly genetic (although Family history is a risk factor)
As for stuff like OCD and Anorexia - You say she had a normal childhood, good family etc. But did she feel pressured to look pretty? Achieve at school? Compete with siblings? On the outside she might have had lots of a priviledges, but that doesn't mean she wasn't exposed to traumatic stresses that she couldn't deal with. Theres lots of factors that could contribute to body image and anxiety disorders. For whatever reason (genetic, brain structure...) some people get them others don't.
V.V.V.V.V.
Houses Ov Mercury
Dak
mentat
Well we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I will continue to do what has worked for me and the people I associate with that think this way which is: Eat healthy, exercise, and when something (flu,cold, etc) does attack, seriously up immune boosting vitamins and herbs.
I would love for you to point out some side effects of taking some natural healers, or ones that are worse than the lab versions.
I find tons of irony in the statement "However, "natural" substances usually contain lots of crap that you don't want" when it is the other way around. The "refined" versions usually contain crap you don't want, or because it's an isolated compound instead of working together with it's natural "brother" ingrediants, it creates problems due to it's isolation. When a pill has one benefit (or maybe two) and a small booklet of negative side effects, I think it's the other way around. It's a toxin with one positive side effect.
Just because we haven't found cancer causes outside of smoking and over exposure to UVA (instead of UVA and B together) doesn't mean they don't exist, and more and more evidence is coming out that electromagnetic fields are to blame for many forms of cancer. Cell phones (high powered wireless communications in general), HV power lines, etc. But these are big business and very much a part of our lives so I doubt they will be going away anytime soon.
Chemotherapy success rates are appallingly low, hardly a good example of "medicinal success".
Exactly, some people react differently to various opposing forces and its not as simple as telling them to go eat a banana, get over it or rehashing their entire life to work the issue out.
Quite frankly I find mental disturbances to be so very sad now but for the first 40 years nearly refused to acknowledge them as anything more than lack of mental control, as in a person not trying hard enough, reasoning hard enough, being logical, you know the Spock thing, then I had to eat my own fucking words, as if by the hand of karma itself.
At least now I know life for me took inspiration and envy the happy go lucky, roll with the punches, sail the winds of change crowd
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