science debate thread

Well we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I will continue to do what has worked for me and the people I associate with that think this way which is: Eat healthy, exercise, and when something (flu,cold, etc) does attack, seriously up immune boosting vitamins and herbs.
Fair enough. I'm not yet qualified to advise you otherwise.

I would love for you to point out some side effects of taking some natural healers, or ones that are worse than the lab versions.
I find tons of irony in the statement "However, "natural" substances usually contain lots of crap that you don't want" when it is the other way around. The "refined" versions usually contain crap you don't want, or because it's an isolated compound instead of working together with it's natural "brother" ingrediants, it creates problems due to it's isolation. When a pill has one benefit (or maybe two) and a small booklet of negative side effects, I think it's the other way around. It's a toxin with one positive side effect.

God you're either so set in your viewpoint or massively stupid. Drug companies have to cover themselves, especially in this litigious society. Every pill and drug go through up to 10 years of testing. Along the way a large number of side-effects appear. Drug companies are obliged to warn people of every possible side-effects. A huge number of them are rare, idiopathic occurences, even side-effects described as common are usually only around 1% prevalence. Alternative medicines are massively under-regulated in comparison to drug companies.

A big issue in this is dosage. With something like Digoxin, it has a narrow therapeutic window where it is useful, but not toxic. The GSK drug, Digoxin, has been throughly tested and dosage levels have been found. With the foxglove you get from your natural supplier you have no idea about the dosage - far more likely you get under dosed and recieve only placebo, or overdosed and go into heart failure. This is just one example.
Drugs are refined from natural equivalents in lots of cases. In a normal pill there's usually only a bit of sugar coating and calcium carbonate - or something to aid drug absorption to improve effectiveness. With natural remedies you really don't know what you're getting.



Just because we haven't found cancer causes outside of smoking and over exposure to UVA (instead of UVA and B together) doesn't mean they don't exist, and more and more evidence is coming out that electromagnetic fields are to blame for many forms of cancer. Cell phones (high powered wireless communications in general), HV power lines, etc. But these are big business and very much a part of our lives so I doubt they will be going away anytime soon.

Chemotherapy success rates are appallingly low, hardly a good example of "medicinal success".

Stop hiding under your Tin-foil hat. Show me some analysed, peer-reviewed evidence that Mobile phones and power lines cause a statistically relevant cancer risk then I'll believe you. Also, I don't quite see how this has to do with Medicine not treating Cancer. It does - its hardly under a doctor's remit to decide where a power line is placed...

As for Chemotherapy, its success rate does vary but with certain things like Hodgkin's lymphoma, its extremely effective, and even in Breast cancer (especially certain forms) http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/dramatic-improvement-in-chemotherapy-success-rate-400248.html
 
ITT I feel ignored by Cythraul and Dakryn

I'm not ignoring you. Actually, I've been reading your posts with great interest. Looks like you actually know what you're talking about. I know next to nothing about this stuff.
 
God you're either so set in your viewpoint or massively stupid. Drug companies have to cover themselves, especially in this litigious society. Every pill and drug go through up to 10 years of testing. Along the way a large number of side-effects appear. Drug companies are obliged to warn people of every possible side-effects. A huge number of them are rare, idiopathic occurences, even side-effects described as common are usually only around 1% prevalence.

Drug companies still miss or under-report side effects. It's a business interested merely in profit, so they are more concerned with what doesn't directly kill you, not what doesn't contribute to your overall health. Edit: In fact, as their medicines spin you into worse health (but feeling good as long as you are drugged up), this improves their business. Drug companies do not make money making you better, but by making you feel better, as long as you are on their drug.

Alternative medicines are massively under-regulated in comparison to drug companies.

As it should be, but the WHO is trying to change that. Look at info I have posted elsewhere regarding Codex Alimentarius.

A big issue in this is dosage. With something like Digoxin, it has a narrow therapeutic window where it is useful, but not toxic. The GSK drug, Digoxin, has been throughly tested and dosage levels have been found. With the foxglove you get from your natural supplier you have no idea about the dosage - far more likely you get under dosed and recieve only placebo, or overdosed and go into heart failure. This is just one example.
Drugs are refined from natural equivalents in lots of cases. In a normal pill there's usually only a bit of sugar coating and calcium carbonate - or something to aid drug absorption to improve effectiveness.

I think foxglove is an ironic choice of argument considering the entire plant is poisonous and is used for "healing" just because they found a dose that does something without killing you immediately. Not exactly a prime "herbalist" or "natural healer" choice for anything. Just because someone has found something that can be used when poked and prodded and twisted doesn't mean it should be.


With natural remedies you really don't know what you're getting.

That is such a generalized statement it can't help but be generally wrong.

Stop hiding under your Tin-foil hat. Show me some analysed, peer-reviewed evidence that Mobile phones and power lines cause a statistically relevant cancer risk then I'll believe you. Also, I don't quite see how this has to do with Medicine not treating Cancer. It does - its hardly under a doctor's remit to decide where a power line is placed...

Do your own research, most of what I have read is coming out of Europe right now (which is a lot further ahead in banning most toxins than the US is), but scientific studies need money to back them, and money does not generally flow to studies that attack the some of the largest and most entrenched sectors of the communication age.

While obviously a doctor doesn't have a choice in the lifestyle his/her patient's lead, that doesn't absolve him of making recommendations. Chemo and Radiation kill cells period, cancerous and normal. This can be life pro-longing, but creates all kinds of other health issues.



As for Chemotherapy, its success rate does vary but with certain things like Hodgkin's lymphoma, its extremely effective, and even in Breast cancer (especially certain forms) http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/dramatic-improvement-in-chemotherapy-success-rate-400248.html

The article you posted would be laughable if it weren't sadly being touted as a "breakthrough". They aren't increasing the effectiveness of Chemo, they have found a way to narrow down the patient list to the only ones it works on. It's like saying you increased your FG percentage by kicking only from the 10 yard line. You didn't improve your skill, you just made it much easier. It also doesn't talk about the high risk of cancer returning after radiation and chemo treatments.
 
I'm not ignoring you. Actually, I've been reading your posts with great interest. Looks like you actually know what you're talking about. I know next to nothing about this stuff.

I'm in my 2nd year of studying Medicine in the UK, so I have a vested interest in the subject ;)

@Dakryn

The article was just one I found very quickly, but the fact is that Chemotherapy for breast cancer still has a 44% success rate - not terrible for one of the most common forms of cancer. But the chemo issue is a bit of a sidetrack from the main issue...

As for Mobile phones - http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/healthyliving/cancercontroversies/mobilephones/

No links have been found.

Power Lines - http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/healthyliving/cancercontroversies/powerlines/

Some evidence, but still not a huge link.

Do you think that cancer rates have increased due to communication devices? I agree that smoking, lifestyle etc. do not help, but in reality the increase percieved prevalence of cancer is really due to better screening and increased life expectency.

I think the main reason we clash over this subject is because of healthcare differences in our countries. When I go to the doctor (rare, I've seen my GP once for teenage eczema) its free, and I'm not worrying about paying lots of dollars just for him to push a drug on me thats expensive and new! I'm not saying the NHS is immune to ************** company pressure. Its the same over here, but I have a bit more trust in the system than I think you do. I know you're a bit of conspiracy fan however, but you can't just say that all drugs companies lie without showing me some proof. I'm sure lots do, and try to bend statistics for their own means, but so do people who push natural remedies.

As a medical student I can assure you that an awful lot of thought goes into prescription. The idea that doctors give you drugs so they can give you more drugs and make more money for Big Pharma is ... pretty mad. Some docs get swayed into doing it, sure, there are always people hungry for profit; but to suggest that there is a global medical conspiracy just to make money... woah.

*edit : Why is P H A R M A C E U T I C A L filtered?
 
I think I need to be clear that my "attack" is at Pharma and the people at the [top] as opposed to those who want to help people by becoming doctors,nurses, etc. I believe the system is flawed at the top, and that all information handed down in medical training is "tinted" that way.
You can only be as smart as the information you take in, and medical professionals are taught to dismiss anything labeled "natural" as a knee-jerk reaction. Not that all do, but that is the general gist of the training. It isn't quite as bad now as it used to be, and it's better in Europe from what I have heard, but I know I argued with a doctor before who said that vitamins were expensive piss, which is a pretty dumb statement.

I don't think you can take the same "all companies try to make money" thing and push it on natural remedies. I am in the process of trying to grow my own garden of various herbs. Who profits from that (other than myself)? The seed company? Not a lot of profit in regular seeds.
 
Fair enough, I guess in some way I saw you attacking my future profession. I still think that Alternative remedies need to be throughly researched and tested before they can be taken seriously. There's nothing stopping that happening - I know funding is an issue but with celebrity proponents over here like Prince Charles, I'm sure there is some around.

I am of a sceptic of alternatives, not because I've been taught to be but because often the evidence isn't there. I accept that Acupuncture has some uses, the body of evidence is quite strong for it.

Out of interest if you developed a certain disease - Cancer for instance, how would you treat it? I'm also interested in your knowledge of natural remedies- do you understand physiological mechanisms for instance?
 
I saw a couple journals where both sides had pretty extensive testing performed, but because of the sheer extreme results between both publications it was obvious more needed to be done. Tinfoil hattery could easily be found, but there are also large lobbies in congress for phone carries that fight this sort of thing.

I do find it hilarious though that you can cook popcorn by putting four cell phones N E S W of kernals on a table. POP!..... POP!!
 
Fair enough, I guess in some way I saw you attacking my future profession. I still think that Alternative remedies need to be throughly researched and tested before they can be taken seriously. There's nothing stopping that happening - I know funding is an issue but with celebrity proponents over here like Prince Charles, I'm sure there is some around.

I am of a sceptic of alternatives, not because I've been taught to be but because often the evidence isn't there. I accept that Acupuncture has some uses, the body of evidence is quite strong for it.

Out of interest if you developed a certain disease - Cancer for instance, how would you treat it? I'm also interested in your knowledge of natural remedies- do you understand physiological mechanisms for instance?

I would have to get back to you on alternative cancer treatments, I generally do not look eep into an ailment unless I happen to have it or a family member friend does.

Regarding physiological mechanisms, can you be a little more specific? Are you just talking about inter-relation between organs/enzymes/etc. or something else?

As far as evidence for natural (as opposed to alternative) healing, there is plenty of (maybe merely anecdotal) evidence that the various herbs and such work, especially since drug companies do use isolated parts in many drugs. However, why would they test to see if it could be consumed and render the same or a superior benefit consumed whole? This would not make them any money whatsoever.

@V5 and Pessimism: Yes the cell phone thing with popcorn was a hoax.

Incidentally, I do not use microwaves though, why would you want to eat radiated food?
 
Do you know how a microwave works? All it does is energize the water molecules to create energy. How is that radiated food? Microwaves are a brilliant invention.
 
It's a different type of cooking for sure, but it's completely safe.

I'm not too bad. Just been lurking and being a shill for Big Pharma.
 
@V5 and Pessimism: Yes the cell phone thing with popcorn was a hoax.

Next you will tell me this is fake:




Do you know how a microwave works? All it does is energize the water molecules to create energy. How is that radiated food? Microwaves are a brilliant invention.

Agreed, but it is terrible with certain foods (flavor wise)
 
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Do you know how a microwave works? All it does is energize the water molecules to create energy. How is that radiated food? Microwaves are a brilliant invention.

Microwaves use dielectric heating in which (electromagnetic) radiation is used to heat food by inducing molecular movement (usually in water), so there is radiation involved, but of course, Dakryn is being a sensationalist idiot; the radiation doesn't actually go into the food per se. In addition, Dakryn, if you are so concerned about radiation so as to avoid microwaving food (you fucking hippie), perhaps you might also want to try related activities like NOT GOING OUTSIDE.