science debate thread

[Cythraul]

So to replace my older economics thread I've decided to make a science debate thread in which we can debate any scientific controversies we choose.

I probably won't be posting in here a lot unless there is discussion of economics.

What initially sparked my interest is this article about the scientific status and cognitive worth of psychiatry. Relevant to my interests for obvious reasons (feeling a lot better, btw).

I'll add some thoughts if somebody comments on the psychiatry article. Also, warning: the article is pretty long.

 

[Dak]

Overall a very good article but I didn't really like the way it ended. I aced both of my psychology classes in college while thinking most of it was bullshit. As mentioned in the article, a patient could see 3 different psychologists and get 3 different diagnosis. This usually doesn't happen in the medical field unless it's one of House's patients.

Life experiences play a huge part in future reponses to life's outcomes. I don't know where it became ok to do or take anything to escape some of the negative effects of a negative world but I think it is nothing more than corporative profiteering at the expense of hurting people.

The entire ************** industry could crash and burn and the world would be a safer, healthier place.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

omg guyz lets talk about global warming!!1111








j/k, maybe i'll make a serious post here later when I have time.

Cythraul, you still haven't fucking responded to me in the Libertarianism thread you beaner.

 

[Srontgorrth]

specifies only one exception to a diagnosis of depression: bereavement

The article makes this seem like its one small narrow exception, yet bereavement is grieving/mourning etc, and therefore the people who lost their job, lost a loved one etc would not be diagnosed, unless it lasts for an exceptionally long time (I think it was 6+ months but idr)

There is nothing in the D.S.M. to prevent a physician from labelling someone who is living through one of these problems mentally disordered.

Uh, yes there is, and the article already mentioned it: bereavement.

proves to change something in patients (shyness), then that something becomes a disorder to be treated (social anxiety). The discovery of the remedy creates the disease.

I'm a fairly shy person, but theres a difference when someone is shy and quiet, and that of when a person is stressed, having trouble breathing, sweating constantly, can't control how they feel etc for over 90+ days in a 6 month period.


Good article, but lots of holes, and also the use of psychiatrist and psychologist synonymously is very annoying. Psychiatrists generally follow the medical model and only believe medicine/pills will help, and don't do much psychotherapy if at all, whereas most psychologists can't even prescribe medicine, and focus on the psychotherapeutic process as a way to help the client.

Anyways, I agree that the psychopharmacology industry sort of takes advantage of certain things, as do most ************** companies, and that antidepressants shouldn't really be needed. Medication should only be used when there is an actual biological problem, such as schizophrenia.

What do you think of it Cythraul?

 

[Pessimism]

Science is a lie!!!


I await the appropriate backlash from the educated.

 

[razoredge]

science is a money pit
say no to processed drugs
most all these "needs" are less than 100 years in the making... key word... making

 

[Einherjar86]

Science is a lie!!!


I await the appropriate backlash from the educated.

No it isn't!!!

I learned that in college.

 

[Cythraul]

Anyways, I agree that the psychopharmacology industry sort of takes advantage of certain things, as do most ************** companies, and that antidepressants shouldn't really be needed. Medication should only be used when there is an actual biological problem, such as schizophrenia.

Isn't it a matter of controversy whether clinical depression has a biological basis? I thought the causes of clinical depression were not well understood. Even if it doesn't have a biological basis, it doesn't follow that antidepressants shouldn't be used. At any rate, I'm not sure I understand the sense in which clinical depression is not an actual biological problem. There is an underlying physical basis to mental states and events. Maybe you can clarify for me.

What do you think of it Cythraul?

I don't know. I'm not really well-versed in this subject. In my own case it seems as though this medication I'm taking is working, but there's no way for me to confirm that because (1) how do I know I wouldn't have gotten better anyway? and (2) maybe it is placebo effect.

I'm interested in how these people classify things into disorders and what it means for something to be a disease. I think it at least partly involves a value judgment. We don't think there is anything wrong with somebody being profoundly sad over the loss of a loved one, but where is the line between that and clinical depression and is it non-arbitrary?

 

[-CC-]

Reading the thread title I was immediately excited, would we talk about things such as anti matter, posing questions such as:

What is dark matter? Is it related to supersymmetry? Do the phenomena attributed to dark matter point not to some form of matter but actually to an extension of gravity?

But instead we get a topic about clinical depression..BOO

 

[Cythraul]

If you want to have a discussion about dark matter and shit like that then why don't you start one? Nobody is stopping you.

 

[Dak]

Even if it doesn't have a biological basis, it doesn't follow that antidepressants shouldn't be used. At any rate, I'm not sure I understand the sense in which clinical depression is not an actual biological problem. There is an underlying physical basis to mental states and events. Maybe you can clarify for me.



I don't know. I'm not really well-versed in this subject. In my own case it seems as though this medication I'm taking is working, but there's no way for me to confirm that because (1) how do I know I wouldn't have gotten better anyway? and (2) maybe it is placebo effect.

To follow the natural health line of thinking if it is biological in nature:

Your body doesn't have a problem because of a antidepressent deficiency, it is deficient in some vitamin/mineral that is causing this particular problem for you. Might be as simple as you don't get enough sun and therefore you don't get enough Vitamin D.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Science is an absolute system just as religion is. Neither in which I beleive in because it denies perceptionism

 

[razoredge]

Depression is a dark matter (for sake of a smile) and Im not sure science can pin point it either. So many things can trigger it. I believe intense and deep thinking people are more prone to it than the light and easy though no type is exempt. It could also be possible that even though life may seem peachy some element is under the skin working its demons, could be old crap from childhood, anything large or small, its all about the impression something left. Then again there is also the chemistry and nutrition angles that I cant speak for.

I know what my issues are and there all external crap that has been deeply internalized for due reason or reasons beyond control. I believe you can only compartmentalize so much until you run out of compartments to stick it in and all the weight involved with such a heavy load. Still I refuse to allow a drug to be the answer but again I know all of whats on my shoulders and drugs wont make that go away. However a few good tokes and loud jam session on Monday nights seems to offer a temporary distraction.

Regardless the answers Im sorry to hear of this and just keep looking for the "sun"... and so I keep telling myself.

 

[Savern]

To follow the natural health line of thinking if it is biological in nature:

Your body doesn't have a problem because of a antidepressent deficiency, it is deficient in some vitamin/mineral that is causing this particular problem for you. Might be as simple as you don't get enough sun and therefore you don't get enough Vitamin D.

Most anti-depressants, such as Tricyclics (less used now) and Selective Serotonin-reuptake inhibitors(more common now) don't just increase "anti-depressant" level but basically (I can go into the science if you want) stop your body breaking down Serotonin and Nor-adrenaline (positive feeling neurotransmitters).

Depression usually isn't instantly caused by low Serotonin etc. BUT if you have things going on in your life that give you a low mood, you stop releasing these as much. If this low mood continues, and you are unable to resolve the reasons you are feeling this way, then Anti-depressants are a useful tool to help you through the situation. They are not a cure for depression - that has to come through counselling or resolution of the problem.

 

[Srontgorrth]

To follow the natural health line of thinking if it is biological in nature:

Your body doesn't have a problem because of a antidepressent deficiency, it is deficient in some vitamin/mineral that is causing this particular problem for you. Might be as simple as you don't get enough sun and therefore you don't get enough Vitamin D.

Good point, and the lack of sun part even leads to its own sort of disorder, Seasonal Affective Disorder. Basically since the body isn't getting enough sunlight and gets into a funk, and the main therapy for it is light therapy.

Deficiencies in certain areas can also lead to problems, and although there may have not been a physical change, as with Schizophrenia, there may be some small changes in the amount of neurotransmitters being produced.

 

[Eligos]

U NO TEH PROLLEM WIT SCIENCE IS THAT IT DON'T PROVIDE NO MORAL STRUCTURE

 

[Cythraul]

Your body doesn't have a problem because of a antidepressent deficiency

strawman

 

[Dak]

It really isn't though. From my point of view, it's like if you had a castle with an incomplete wall. You have a lack of bricks/stone to fill it in. It's not because you have a lack of particle board and gray paint.

All medications ever do is treat symptoms, not the root cause.

 

[Cythraul]

It really isn't though. From my point of view, it's like if you had a castle with an incomplete wall. You have a lack of bricks/stone to fill it in. It's not because you have a lack of particle board and gray paint.

Well, nobody ever made the claim that people get depressed because of an antidepressant deficiency. That's why I called it a strawman.

All medications ever do is treat symptoms, not the root cause.

Are you just making this claim for mental disorders or is it more general? If it's a more general claim it's a pretty damn bold claim to make. If you're just referring to medication for depression, do you know what the root cause of depression is so that you can draw that conclusion or do you have some other reason?

 

[Cythraul]

Cythraul, you still haven't fucking responded to me in the Libertarianism thread you beaner.

I posted a response a little while ago in case you didn't notice.