Should Mexican Immigrants Be Allowed Into The U.S Freely

[cookiecutter]

You're sounding very Malthusian vihris

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I don't know shit about him, but okay.

Was that supposed to be a compliment, a criticism, or just a neutral observation?

 

[cookiecutter]

Criticism, since Malthus's ideas were not very well supported and had undercurrents of social darwinism. Not saying that's what you're suggesting, just that you're leaning that way.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Last I checked, social darwinism was exactly what I was arguing against. I think population control (or whatever more sugared term you would prefer to substitute for the idea) measures are what is needed to prevent darwinistic scenarios.

 

[cookiecutter]

But implicit in that is keeping "undesirable" (poor Mexican) people out

 

[Zephyrus]

I think any country has every right to the permeability of its borders. It just needs to set a common standard and not discriminate.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at with this, but I'm more interested in your other points for now.

Basically that our economy is not growing. It's going in reverse. That our economy needs to get "bigger". etc.

Population control policies would damn well change that. And regardless of how much the idea upsets people, it's far more humane than just letting population get out of control and having people starving to death and fighting tooth-and-nail for jobs. I think the argument you're making here is a morally irresponsible one.

So basically you want to implement China's policy of 1 child per family and penalize those financially who do not comply? That is beyond not being humane, it's intrusion. I really don't care about morals but that is no one's business how many children a family chooses to have. And as I have already stated and you seem to ignore or not seem to acknowledge. By 2042 the Hispanic population will be the majority (due to more births then deaths) and the white population will be down due to more deaths then births. One is going up and one is going down. Hencefor they cancel each other out so we are not "overpopulating".

If you really want to settle this point, we need statistics and not examples. But I don't think it's that hard to understand that there's less land available for purchase now than there was in the 1800s since there are more people now. That would mean real estate is more expensive today, and though I'm not an expert on this topic, I would assume that higher real estate costs make it more difficult to start a business.

Yes it is harder to explain because you are not taking other things into consideration. We cannot go by today's dollars but by 1800's dollars (or whatever year) since it's not the same. What is $1 million today is not $1 Million in the 1880's. The cost of living is different. We also have to remember that in those days there was more poor people because our country was in it's infancy so therefor RE was less affordable to them. So costs (both cost of living and business startups), more poor then and less now, and on and on. It also depends where you live then and now. If you live in urban areas it costs more for RE then in rural areas etc. regardless of populations then and now.

I did not say our country is overpopulated. I said that it would become overpopulated if we let tens of millions of people without jobs come over here. We need to tailor our immigration policies to the availability of jobs. If we allow more people than we have jobs, we're only allowing countries with overpopulation problems to spread the same problem to our own country.

I already mentioned about so called "overpopulation" in this country by 2042. Less whites, more hispanics = cancels each other out and populations levels would be steady but not overpopulated. As for not enough jobs for everyone. They said that throughout the history of the U.S. and there is always enough jobs for everyone it is just a matter if you would take a certain job or not and if the economy grows or not. And as always it is immigrants that tend to create more small businesses in this country and therefor create more jobs that sometimes are not counted in census bureau's numbers.

 

[MasterOLightning]

It takes a stupid amount of capital to start just about any business. Immigrants who are coming legally may actually be able to afford this, depending on how they did in the old country. For example, a lot of people who fled Soviet Bloc countries in the '80s had some wealth and were beneficial for the US. Border jumpers, not so much. They're not doing much in the way of generating meaningful economic growth by selling fruit off the back or a truck or picking tomatoes and not paying taxes. A simplification, yes, but true for a lot of cases.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

But implicit in that is keeping "undesirable" (poor Mexican) people out

No, the whole idea of population control measures is to prevent a situation where we'd ever have to refuse prospective immigrants in the first place. The only thing that makes Mexican immigration "undesirable" as far as I'm concerned is the possibility that it could either (1) lower the value of unskilled jobs in the U.S. to a point where all unskilled workers' income would drop below the poverty line, or (2) cause Americans who already have jobs to lose them, thus disrupting their lives and adding additional suffering to this whole situation.

 

[MasterOLightning]

No, the whole idea of population control measures is to prevent a situation where we'd ever have to refuse prospective immigrants in the first place. The only thing that makes Mexican immigration "undesirable" as far as I'm concerned is the possibility that it could either (1) lower the value of unskilled jobs in the U.S. to a point where all unskilled workers' income would drop below the poverty line, or (2) cause Americans who already have jobs to lose them, thus disrupting their lives and adding additional suffering to this whole situation.

So you'd place immigrant's rights before the right of citizens to have a family. Maybe you need to reword that first sentence. Also, you're completely ignoring the massive expense of illegal immigrants on taxpayers. Unless that was going to be your next post.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

So basically you want to implement China's policy of 1 child per family and penalize those financially who do not comply? That is beyond not being humane, it's intrusion. I really don't care about morals but that is no one's business how many children a family chooses to have.

It is everyone's fucking business how many children people have when it creates overpopulation and people begin starving to death because parents are too ignorant to understand the consequences of bringing children into the world. If you honestly think it's more important for people to be able to have as many kids as they want than it is to prevent people from starving to death, your morals are pretty appalling.

And as I have already stated and you seem to ignore or not seem to acknowledge. By 2042 the Hispanic population will be the majority (due to more births then deaths) and the white population will be down due to more deaths then births. One is going up and one is going down. Hencefor they cancel each other out so we are not "overpopulating".

I really shouldn't have to point this out to you, but that claim of yours means nothing if you don't actually specify how much the non-hispanic population is going down, and how much the hispanic is going up. Right now, both the U.S. and Mexico have fertility rates above 2, so you're wrong if you think anything's being "canceled out".

Yes it is harder to explain because you are not taking other things into consideration. We cannot go by today's dollars but by 1800's dollars (or whatever year) since it's not the same. What is $1 million today is not $1 Million in the 1880's. The cost of living is different. We also have to remember that in those days there was more poor people because our country was in it's infancy so therefor RE was less affordable to them. So costs (both cost of living and business startups), more poor then and less now, and on and on. It also depends where you live then and now. If you live in urban areas it costs more for RE then in rural areas etc. regardless of populations then and now.

I already mentioned about so called "overpopulation" in this country by 2042. Less whites, more hispanics = cancels each other out and populations levels would be steady but not overpopulated. As for not enough jobs for everyone. They said that throughout the history of the U.S. and there is always enough jobs for everyone it is just a matter if you would take a certain job or not and if the economy grows or not. And as always it is immigrants that tend to create more small businesses in this country and therefor create more jobs that sometimes are not counted in census bureau's numbers.

See MasterOLightning's post. Immigrants who are dirt poor and barely make enough to feed their families aren't going to be starting businesses at a rate that matches the number of jobs they consume. I think it goes without saying that immigration flow should be tailored to our job availabilities, and not just allowed to go full-blast out of optimism that things are going to "cancel out" like your fuzzy figures on population growth.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

So you'd place immigrant's rights before the right of citizens to have a family. Maybe you need to reword that first sentence.

I'm not sure where you got this. I'm not saying that people should have fewer kids just so more people can immigrate to the U.S. I'm saying people should have fewer kids to that their kids don't end up starving to death when there's no work for them.

Also, you're completely ignoring the massive expense of illegal immigrants on taxpayers. Unless that was going to be your next post.

I never said I'm okay with illegal immigration. If you're wondering, consider me in support of Necuratul's idea of fining the illegals, and working harder to ensure that everyone who does immigrate goes through the system properly.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

It takes a stupid amount of capital to start just about any business. Immigrants who are coming legally may actually be able to afford this, depending on how they did in the old country. For example, a lot of people who fled Soviet Bloc countries in the '80s had some wealth and were beneficial for the US. Border jumpers, not so much. They're not doing much in the way of generating meaningful economic growth by selling fruit off the back or a truck or picking tomatoes and not paying taxes. A simplification, yes, but true for a lot of cases.

You have this notion that the majority of non-Mexican immigrant has wealth in the old country... that seriously is not true... and as for "border jumpers" as you call them... perhaps they do not pay income taxes but they pay taxes directly or indirectly in other ways... for example sales tax on all purchases they make in the U.S. and when they pay rent to landlords that money eventually ends in Uncle Sam's coffers in the form of property taxes and income taxes... so see even though they perhaps do not pay income taxes eventually their money does go back into the economy and Gov't... it's all a cycle or circle... btw there are some businesses that do not require alot of capital... i can give you a list but you can google it...

 

[zabu of nΩd]

If you're really worried about helping the economy through immigration, it would help it a lot more if the immigrants weren't breaking the law and dodging taxes.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

It is everyone's fucking business how many children people have when it creates overpopulation and people begin starving to death because parents are too ignorant to understand the consequences of bringing children into the world. If you honestly think it's more important for people to be able to have as many kids as they want than it is to prevent people from starving to death, your morals are pretty appalling.

Starving to death? You keep saying that but do not show proof of such. You obviously do not know anything about hispanic culture. Even if they are dirt poor and cannot provide adequate clothing they always sacrifice to provide them food. I know because I come from that culture & have seen it myself in other hispanic countries firsthand. Hispanics are anything but ignorant about any consequences. You say my morals are appalling but your ignorance of a different culture is what is really appalling.

I really shouldn't have to point this out to you, but that claim of yours means nothing if you don't actually specify how much the non-hispanic population is going down, and how much the hispanic is going up. Right now, both the U.S. and Mexico have fertility rates above 2, so you're wrong if you think anything's being "canceled out".

I guess you didn't read the article i posted before. Just to clarify that 130 million people will be added to the population between now and the next to 40 years give or take if they are correct. Still not a overpopulation at all. I hate to think how much the population will grow in China and India compared to us but were chicken feed compared to their populations now and in the future. They are overpopulated and truely have poverty. Ours is miniscule immigration notwithstanding... Btw have you even considered the poverty and your so called "starvation" of citizens born here.. say the black population and white poor? Or is it only hispanic poor that starve and not others in our population in your scenario?

Article: http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=17082

See MasterOLightning's post. Immigrants who are dirt poor and barely make enough to feed their families aren't going to be starting businesses at a rate that matches the number of jobs they consume. I think it goes without saying that immigration flow should be tailored to our job availabilities, and not just allowed to go full-blast out of optimism that things are going to "cancel out" like your fuzzy figures on population growth.

No the dirt poor won't be starting businesses for the number of jobs consumed but immigrants in their ethnic communities that do have the money will create those jobs for them. Afterall white america will not want to work in those neighborhoods or work those jobs. Btw my figures aren't fuzzy if you read the Gov't report. If anything your postings have been fuzzy with no figures.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

If you're really worried about helping the economy through immigration, it would help it a lot more if the immigrants weren't breaking the law and dodging taxes.

I guess you can't read what I just posted above you about taxes in other forms being paid directly or indirectly by them that eventually ends up back in our economy and the Gov't coffers. I suggest you reread my post or have someone read it and explain it to you. You seem to be losing steam in your arguments. Btw do you know that citizens themselves evade taxes? Yes i know i was shocked to find out non illegal American citizens (some or most being white) not paying their taxes... to the tune of millions if not billions... one famous case is the Leona Hemsley case in NY a few years back... a billionairess... now which tax evader hurts us more? Illegal immigrants that probably do not make $20,000 per year or wealthy peole who make millions and in some cases billions? ... below you can read up on tax evasion... but one interesting figure they mention is:

"In the United States, the IRS estimated in 2007 that Americans owed $345 billion more than they paid, or about 14% of federal revenues for FY2007. FY = Fiscal year"

Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance_and_tax_evasion

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Starving to death? You keep saying that but do not show proof of such. You obviously do not know anything about hispanic culture. Even if they are dirt poor and cannot provide adequate clothing they always sacrifice to provide them food. I know because I come from that culture & have seen it myself in other hispanic countries firsthand. Hispanics are anything but ignorant about any consequences. You say my morals are appalling but your ignorance of a different culture is what is really appalling.

I wasn't talking about hispanics in reference to people "starving to death". I was talking about what happens when nothing is done about population growth. You're not addressing the point I was making, which was that it is morally unacceptable to allow population growth to run rampant to the point of widespread poverty. I probably shouldn't have used the term "starving to death", but being dirt poor without enough money for clothing, medicine, and education is not an acceptable standard of living either, and we should not be allowing population growth to reach that point.

I guess you didn't read the article i posted before. Just to clarify that 130 million people will be added to the population between now and the next to 40 years give or take if they are correct. Still not a overpopulation at all. I hate to think how much the population will grow in China and India compared to us but were chicken feed compared to their populations now and in the future. They are overpopulated and truely have poverty. Ours is miniscule immigration notwithstanding... Btw have you even considered the poverty and your so called "starvation" of citizens born here.. say the black population and white poor? Or is it only hispanic poor that starve and not others in our population in your scenario?

Article: http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=17082

Just because the U.S. is not overpopulated yet does not mean everything's "balancing out". As the article points out, the population is growing rapidly. Eventually, the U.S. will reach overpopulation if nothing is done about the birth rate. Sure, we don't have mass starvation here today - but if things continue at the rate they're going, it will happen eventually.

This is why I brought up the whole point of population control. We need to address population growth now, so that we don't reach a point where every unskilled worker in the U.S. (or anywhere in the world) has to live dirt poor, with no money for clothing, medicine, or education. That is not a world we should have to live in just because people don't feel like limiting the number of kids they have.

No the dirt poor won't be starting businesses for the number of jobs consumed but immigrants in their ethnic communities that do have the money will create those jobs for them. Afterall white america will not want to work in those neighborhoods or work those jobs. Btw my figures aren't fuzzy if you read the Gov't report. If anything your postings have been fuzzy with no figures.

The point is that the vast majority of Mexican immigration is of those who are dirt poor. And as I've already said multiple times now, I'm fine with immigration inasmuch as it goes toward filling those bottom-of-the-barrel job availabilities. But there needs to be a cut-off point in immigration somewhere so that there isn't a serious drop in the standard of living for all unskilled workers in the U.S.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I guess you can't read what I just posted above you about taxes in other forms being paid directly or indirectly by them that eventually ends up back in our economy and the Gov't coffers. I suggest you reread my post or have someone read it and explain it to you. You seem to be losing steam in your arguments. Btw do you know that citizens themselves evade taxes? Yes i know i was shocked to find out non illegal American citizens (some or most being white) not paying their taxes... to the tune of millions if not billions... one famous case is the Leona Hemsley case in NY a few years back... a billionairess... now which tax evader hurts us more? Illegal immigrants that probably do not make $20,000 per year or wealthy peole who make millions and in some cases billions? ... below you can read up on tax evasion... but one interesting figure they mention is:

"In the United States, the IRS estimated in 2007 that Americans owed $345 billion more than they paid, or about 14% of federal revenues for FY2007. FY = Fiscal year"

Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance_and_tax_evasion

Why are you even going on about this? Do you think it's acceptable that people are sneaking into the country illegally and not paying taxes? This argument is ridiculous. And just because there are legal citizens not paying taxes does not mean it's any less wrong that illegals aren't.

 

[MasterOLightning]

You have this notion that the majority of non-Mexican immigrant has wealth in the old country... that seriously is not true... and as for "border jumpers" as you call them... perhaps they do not pay income taxes but they pay taxes directly or indirectly in other ways... for example sales tax on all purchases they make in the U.S. and when they pay rent to landlords that money eventually ends in Uncle Sam's coffers in the form of property taxes and income taxes... so see even though they perhaps do not pay income taxes eventually their money does go back into the economy and Gov't... it's all a cycle or circle... btw there are some businesses that do not require alot of capital... i can give you a list but you can google it...

From my experience I have every reason to believe that non-Mexican immigrants have far more resources than most Mexicans, simply based on that if you can afford to fly here or boat here and buy property right off the bat, you're probably doing ok. I do not see why you find the term border jumpers objectionable. It's a truthful assessment. And there's no way that paying some taxes makes it okay to not pay others. They pay something, but not what is legally required of them. So they are breaking the law. You don't want people to be hurting so much they turn to crime or drugs, but I'd like to see these people be hit with back taxes when applicable.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Why are you even going on about this? Do you think it's acceptable that people are sneaking into the country illegally and not paying taxes? This argument is ridiculous. And just because there are legal citizens not paying taxes does not mean it's any less wrong that illegals aren't.

Wow do you not read where i told you they do pay taxes in other forms (hint: sales tax and indirect income taxes)? Do you just plainly ignore some statements and only pay attention to others? No I don't think illegal immigration is acceptable but i can sympathize and empathize why they do so. Can you?. I didn't say illegal immigrants not paying taxes is right but again they are paying taxes in OTHER FORMS SUCH AS SALES TAX AND INDIRECT INCOME TAXES. I can't say it any plainer. So i guess to you $354 billion dollars of unpaid taxes by American citizens is minor compared to illegal immigrants and their evasion of minuscule wage payroll taxes. If you are going to bring up the tax issue then I will give you a rebuttal showing others that evade taxes as well but people like you do not bring those people up. Make sense?