TAB Thread.

Exactly. I'm talking about ideal technique. not many people know what this is. probably the best example of it is Shawn Lane. but even players like PG have their fingers slanted when it should actually be parallel. but just cuz he's getting away with it doesn't mean you should follow his example.
 
I hate when people say things like that. This is not a subjective matter. It's not really relative to the individual player (I mean to an extent it is since we all have different hands, but overall it's not). There is an ideal, objective way to learn guitar. It's just not being taught because hardly anyone knows what the correct ways are. It's about efficiency, economy of motion, and being relaxed. Not about practicing incorrect methods just because they are comfortable for now but will lead to injuries in the future. Many people have yet to realize this.
 
his fingers on his fretting hand shouldn't be slanted like that. ideally they should be parallel to the frets. and he could fix that by positioning his thumb behind the neck, where it's supposed to be most of the time anyway. but yeah, cool little tune :p
You forgot to mention his horrible right handed technique :p, anchoring much?
And to the guy above me: you can get good with poor technique and many do but good technique will make the whole thing a lot easier and you'll get further still with it. There are a lot of reasons that make good technique good and there are a lot of reasons to use good technique.
 
You forgot to mention his horrible right handed technique :p, anchoring much?
And to the guy above me: you can get good with poor technique and many do but good technique will make the whole thing a lot easier and you'll get further still with it. There are a lot of reasons that make good technique good and there are a lot of reasons to use good technique.

oh goodness. I've been focusing so much on left hand technique lately that I completely forgot to analyze his right hand, haha. But hey, you know what they say, John Petrucci anchors, so it must be alright :p
 
Anchoring is a matter of taste/personal preference, but you are right about it being the best for your playing to be very conscious of what best helps your technique (like proper hand positioning). Pretty much hit the nail on the head with the comment of certain people getting away with bad technique sometimes, and how that doesn't mean you should copy them in it.

Having proper technique doesn't mean you can't still have your own sound. It's crucial to build a strong foundation for your style before attempting to actually hone in on it. Or you'll just develop really bad habits that end up holding you back.
 
I hate when people say things like that. This is not a subjective matter. It's not really relative to the individual player (I mean to an extent it is since we all have different hands, but overall it's not). There is an ideal, objective way to learn guitar. It's just not being taught because hardly anyone knows what the correct ways are. It's about efficiency, economy of motion, and being relaxed. Not about practicing incorrect methods just because they are comfortable for now but will lead to injuries in the future. Many people have yet to realize this.

I do totally disagree. What if your economy of motion is different from mine? Just think: your arms, your hands, your fingers are differents from mine. It just happens that people are different. One is fat, one is slim the other is tall, another is short. There isn't a definitive method for everyone. This is what teachers try to teach you. And they are all wrong and they all play like monkeys.
 
I do totally disagree. What if your economy of motion is different from mine? Just think: your arms, your hands, your fingers are differents from mine. It just happens that people are different. One is fat, one is slim the other is tall, another is short. There isn't a definitive method for everyone. This is what teachers try to teach you. And they are all wrong and they all play like monkeys.

Right we all have different bodies. That's why I said to an extent it is relative to the individual player. However the the principles are the same. Let me give you an example. Putting your thumb over the neck will limit your fretting fingers' reaching ability. Try it yourself, put your thumb over the neck and see how many frets up your pinky can reach to. now put your thumb in the middle behind the neck, and notice the difference of stretching/reaching ability. for myself, the difference is about 3 frets, altho this will vary according to where on the fretboard you're playing at the moment. And this concept will hold true for any hand size. Easier reach = Easier playing due to less effort being exerted. And guess what comes with ease of playing? That's right, speed. And of course there's more to it than just this. This is just one example. I'm sure Aleksi can give plenty more.
 
I do totally disagree. What if your economy of motion is different from mine? Just think: your arms, your hands, your fingers are differents from mine. It just happens that people are different. One is fat, one is slim the other is tall, another is short. There isn't a definitive method for everyone. This is what teachers try to teach you. And they are all wrong and they all play like monkeys.
I think this is where this diagram says a lot nicely:
bodyprops3.jpg

We may all be different sizes and shapes but for the most part we're in proportion and our tendons and general physics for movement are the same, I'll be basing all things here on the presumption that none of us have odd deformities or mutations.
As Mystique mentioned with the left hand thumb being behind the neck as opposed to over: your stretch will be improved no matter what shape your hands are, even if someone with larger hands will have a naturally larger stretch in both scenarios. Some people believe that if you have large hands your thumb will have to be over the neck cause you've got a bigger thumb, however, proportionately you'll have longer fingers so, though your hand will be further below the neck of the guitar, your fingers will still have the reach required.
As well as the reach factor, the thumb being over the neck can cause finger independence issues. These can be overcome with practice but it's far easier to move the thumb behind the neck.
Another argument against left hand thumb position being over the neck is that it causes your fingers to scrunch together more (for similar reasons to those that cause your restricted reach) which leads to increased tensions in your hand.
With the thumb behind the neck, the way you fret notes and the positioning of the fingers remains the same no matter what string you're on. The angled nature of the thumb over style means that your fingers will naturally reposition as you move onto different strings. This is detrimental to accuracy and causes unnecessary tensions in the hand (which in part contribute to the finger independence issues), and obviously makes guitar playing harder due to having to fight against the tensions.
Finally in terms of the thumb: if you have it over the neck your wrist is less likely to be in a straight position. This means that the tendons are restricted and the fingers are harder to move.

You mentioned economy of motion being different, but economy of motion simply refers to the amount of movement used. Generally, you should be using the smallest motion necessary to produce the desired sound (obviously whilst still being relaxed). The positions of good technique help you to keep your motions small and relaxed.
This leads us nicely into anchoring, anchoring restricts the movement of the right hand and provides a pivot point. Whilst this may seem to be helpful due to the restricted movement making it easier to perform smaller motions, it is not. The restriction of movement means that your hand muscles are essentially working against each other, one muscle is trying to hold your hand in one place and another is trying to move it elsewhere and tension is a result. This tension will inevitably slow you down; the problem with anchoring is that you are not relaxed.
When anchoring your hands overall positioning will change when you change strings (when picking the high E it may be scrunched up and when picking the low E stretched out). This causes yet more tension and also means you'll be picking differently depending on the string you're on which is again, detrimental to accuracy.

Like I said, it is possible to get good with poor technique and many guitarists do. It will however, take far more work, the results will generally be poorer and you might end up injuring yourself (tendonitis and the like).
 
Haha, nice. A video is posted about something cool being played and then we use the next several posts discussing in detail the flaws of his technique. Nearly all guitarists that people consider as idols have less than perfect technique. For 98% of guitarists out there, this "perfect technique" is unnecessary. This isn't to say teachers shouldn't show their students the correct technique, but I believe there is value in using what's comfortable (within reason) since it will get you 99% there. If you're focusing so intently on your technique, you're missing the point of music. The focus shouldn't be on how good is my technique, it should be on what is being played. Almost anyone can develop awesome technique and shred the shit out of some licks, but it's the people who don't fret over every little technique detail and who focus on the music that make something special and make a living off of music. For those people looking to break world records of picking or participate in extreme guitar shred, then strive for this "perfect technique" but nearly all music written can comfortably and safely be played without perfect technique.
 
Haha, nice. A video is posted about something cool being played and then we use the next several posts discussing in detail the flaws of his technique. Nearly all guitarists that people consider as idols have less than perfect technique. For 98% of guitarists out there, this "perfect technique" is unnecessary. This isn't to say teachers shouldn't show their students the correct technique, but I believe there is value in using what's comfortable (within reason) since it will get you 99% there. If you're focusing so intently on your technique, you're missing the point of music. The focus shouldn't be on how good is my technique, it should be on what is being played. Almost anyone can develop awesome technique and shred the shit out of some licks, but it's the people who don't fret over every little technique detail and who focus on the music that make something special and make a living off of music. For those people looking to break world records of picking or participate in extreme guitar shred, then strive for this "perfect technique" but nearly all music written can comfortably and safely be played without perfect technique.

I think you missed this part of Delanoir's post:
Having proper technique doesn't mean you can't still have your own sound. It's crucial to build a strong foundation for your style before attempting to actually hone in on it. Or you'll just develop really bad habits that end up holding you back.

Fret:

Just because someone strives for perfect technique does not mean that this person will not strive to become a better musician all around. It's just that technique should come before developing your writing skills because then you can apply good technique to the original pieces you have written for yourself to play. For those who can just shred like shit with their perfect technique, well they have no musical drive. Or maybe they haven't educated themselves enough to know how to write good music. Honestly these are all just different aspects of musicianship. Musicianship as a whole includes technique, composition skills, ear training, theory, and much more that I'm leaving out. Each one takes time and focus, and it's best to focus on them separately rather than burdening yourself with all at once. Having ideal technique will not prevent you from being good a musician. That's an absurd thing to say.

Also, here's a counter example to what you're saying:



this guy is probably the closest to ideal technique any of us have ever seen. and he doesn't just "shred the shit out of some licks" all the time. there are some real musical aspects to what he plays.
 
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If you're focusing so intently on your technique, you're missing the point of music. The focus shouldn't be on how good is my technique, it should be on what is being played.

So untrue. Think of it this way... many guitarists who are passionate enough about music will want to work extra hard to idealize their technique so that they can perfectly convey every ounce of their music to the world. Having very good technique only means you have opened your possibilities to what you can play; it doesn't mean you're a mechanical robot. I'm not saying everyone who doesn't aim for perfected technique isn't passionate about music, but doing so only enhances one's ability to express himself.

Almost anyone can develop awesome technique and shred the shit out of some licks...

There are so many people who try to "develop awesome technique and shred the shit out of some licks..." but never do. Most don't. Why? Either they lack knowledge on how to do so, or they lack the drive to do so. The former is where teaching/learning ideal technique is useful.

edit: ^ Shawn Lane is a godsend :p
 
You guys misunderstand me. I never said that good technique only leads to mechanical, robot-like playing. I'm saying that the focus should be on the music, not the technique. Obviously there are very technical players that don't just shred and play very good and tasteful stuff.
 
And as ninja said, the focus should actually be on both technique and music. That way you can express yourself to the fullest, with no limitations on what the human body is capable of.

Edit: I kind of want to change what I just said. Music a very broad term. It encompasses many things. Technique is one of them, music theory is one of them, transcribing is also in there, I mean there's a lot that goes into the term "music". So when you are saying "the main focus should be music" you have to realize that all of these are basically sub-genres of music. You have to work on each of them in order to attain the great goal- music itself. They all help to make music what music is.
 
I agree that you should spend time working on technique, but making sure your fingers are always parallel to the frets, and making sure you don't anchor your picking hand are such minor technique details that someone doesn't need to worry about them. You can play as fast as you need without your fingers parallel to the frets and while anchoring. Unless you feel the need to play at ridiculous speeds like 16th notes at 250 bpm or something like that.

And I disagree with your next statement. Music is creating art using sound. This means using varying notes, rhythms, sound textures, etc. So unless your technique is unintentionally interfering or changing some of these things, it is not even related to music, much less an aspect of music.
 
I agree that you should spend time working on technique, but making sure your fingers are always parallel to the frets, and making sure you don't anchor your picking hand are such minor technique details that someone doesn't need to worry about them. You can play as fast as you need without your fingers parallel to the frets and while anchoring. Unless you feel the need to play at ridiculous speeds like 16th notes at 250 bpm or something like that.

And I disagree with your next statement. Music is creating art using sound. This means using varying notes, rhythms, sound textures, etc. So unless your technique is unintentionally interfering or changing some of these things, it is not even related to music, much less an aspect of music.

You seem to have a very thin grasp of technical guitar playing. All you've mentioned is "playing fast." Already a red flag in my mind :loco:

And no, no one needs to worry about technique. Those who choose to are only better preparing themselves though.

By the way, I don't think Steve Morse would call anchoring a minor detail when it (along with some other "details") was largely responsible for his carpal tunnel. Details + details = major problems.

And I'd say it's you who's the one misunderstanding. Realize that many people in this world want to work as hard as possible to reach perfection. Not everything is focused on "playing fast"... technique is so much more deep than that and it's clear to me that you do not understand that. Unless you spend every waking moment improving your compositional/theory skills and literally have 0 minutes to focus on technique (in which case I'd question why you'd even play an instrument as technical as guitar), there is no reason not to.

Another advantage of extreme technical prowess is the ability to focus your attention on improvisation, phrasing, articulation, overall note choice and feel while playing/performing. If something is technically challenging to you, your attention is focused on actually getting all the notes played correctly and in time. When you are able to do that easily, you have the ability to add a more personal touch to your playing, and make it sound more genuine. Take a look at some Shawn Lane videos. The guy is so relaxed he could probably be playing in his sleep, and for this reason he is able to do what I said above.
 
I agree that you should spend time working on technique, but making sure your fingers are always parallel to the frets, and making sure you don't anchor your picking hand are such minor technique details that someone doesn't need to worry about them. You can play as fast as you need without your fingers parallel to the frets and while anchoring. Unless you feel the need to play at ridiculous speeds like 16th notes at 250 bpm or something like that.

And I disagree with your next statement. Music is creating art using sound. This means using varying notes, rhythms, sound textures, etc. So unless your technique is unintentionally interfering or changing some of these things, it is not even related to music, much less an aspect of music.
Yes, you can play as fast as you need (depending on what you need) without perfect technique, but it WILL be harder to achieve than it would if you used perfect technique. And also, if you can shred 16th notes at 250bpm then you should certainly be more than capable of slower speeds too (assuming you're not tensing up and such to speed up, in which case you have very little actual control) and will probably be better than the guy who has poor technique and a lower max speed.
Technique is definitely an aspect of music, you need to fret the notes to make the music and the way you fret the notes is very important to your potential ability. Admittedly if you're going to be strumming slow chords or playing quarter notes at 60bpm or something certain aspects of technique are going to be fairly obsolete. However, the more you can do: the more you can express and that makes technique very important.
 
Look, I never said you shouldn't worry about technique. I said it shouldn't be the focus! Let me quote my first comment on this discussion:

The focus shouldn't be on how good is my technique, it should be on what is being played.

Of course I too worry about my technique, but only to the point that I need to be able to get the sound and speed I want to while being comfortable. For pretty much any technical "flaw" I can find you a good, successful guitarist that uses that technique, and I'm pretty damn sure they chose to use that technique because it was comfortable to them, not because it was uncomfortable for them.

As for your first comment, I'm not really sure where you're going with it. Unless you're talking about things that effect your sound like bad fretting or palm muting or something, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you talking about things like good legato? Even for things like this, pretty much anyone can play good legato with horrible technique at a slow speed, and the only effect of improving technique would be improved speed.

I'm not sure on the details of Steve Morse, but if anchoring was causing some other problem like tension in his wrist, which in turn led to his carpal tunnel then yes, anchoring would be a problem. And don't forget that the biggest risk factor for carpal tunnel is "structural and biological rather than environmental or activity-related"

And again, I never said you should spend 0 minutes on technique because it isn't important. I said it shouldn't be the focus!

Edit: and as for technique being a part of music, ask yourself this question. When you listen to a song are you able to identify technique? Personally I can't listen to a song and make a comment like "wow, his fingers were really parallel to the fretboard during that passage" or "good picking motion during that section." What I can comment on are things like "good phrasing during that section" or "liked the rhythm during that part."
 
Edit: and as for technique being a part of music, ask yourself this question. When you listen to a song are you able to identify technique? Personally I can't listen to a song and make a comment like "wow, his fingers were really parallel to the fretboard during that passage" or "good picking motion during that section." What I can comment on are things like "good phrasing during that section" or "liked the rhythm during that part."

Yes, different techniques produce different tones. When you hear the Nail outro, you know those arpeggios are played using economy picking rather than alternate picking. Because it's obviously a smoother tone (besides the fact that you know it's a swept arpeggio). You can also tell if someone is playing something legato due to the slurred notes that your ears pick up on. And then again, there is tapping, which sounds much different than alternate picking. your ears can detect all this stuff because of the different feels that are created using these different techniques. Don't you ever wonder why some guitarists prefer legato over alternate picking? Obviously they like the sound of legato better.

Here's a little proof for you:

1. Sound is an aspect of music.
2. Technique produces sound.
3. Therefore, technique is an aspect of music.


here's the theoretical version:
1. If S, then M
2. If T, then S
3. Therefore, if T, then M.
 
Sound is an aspect of music
Taking a shit produces sound
Therefore, taking a shit is an aspect of music?

And I agree that using different techniques produces different sounds. Obviously sweep picking will sound different than alternate picking will sound different than tapping. However, the technique aspects that we were discussing earlier - things such as how you position your hands on the fretboard - don't, unless the technique is causing a problem like dead notes or something.