The Abortion (that is this) Thread

[AllShallFall]

Just face reality; Planned Parenthood is going nowhere, and your shitty belief system is an ever-shrinking minority that will one day be eradicated. The GOP stands no chance in 2016 and would lose the house and senate too if they hadn't gerrymandered the fuck out of everything.

+1

 

[AllShallFall]

Definitely worth realizing that single-motherhood is one of the best predictors of criminal behavior out there.

I call bullshit on this. I was raised by a single mother and I've never committed a crime in my life.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

fwiw I am finding some dispute on that particular aspect vs whether it's because many single mother families are black and poor vs other factors, so I might have been hyperbolic. Regardless, it's a decent one.

Kids fatherless from birth worse off than those fatherless later in life (table 4):
http://www.kidshaverightstoo.info/wp99-03-harperfatherabsence.pdf

 

[AllShallFall]

Granted, you may have a valid point, but it's without merit to just automatically assume that a child of a single mother will become a criminal.

 

[tagradh]

Why would we need one? It would only be needed if you're having lots of unprotected sex with random women, and you really shouldn't be doing that anyways.

This is not the only situation in which people would want to use it.

I call bullshit on this. I was raised by a single mother and I've never committed a crime in my life.

Why are so many people incapable of grasping that anecdotes don't mean shit? Statistics get misused all the time but they're still generally far better than the dumb 'this isn't what I've experienced, must be lies!!!' responses that always seem to follow any claim.

 

[SentinelSlain]

Yeah and you should think about it like this too, if you like posting on forums and really go into your music, reading reviews and so on, you're probably not a risk taking instant gratification kind of guy.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

One more double-standard: many people have suggested that men undergo a surgical procedure that permanently sterilizes them, so that women do not have to undergo a non-surgical procedure that can be repeated with minimal(?) harm, even though women are just as capable of being sterilized.

Who ever said women couldn't do the same thing? If either gender knows they never want children, surgery is available.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

wow what a digression who gives a shit about periods.


still no satisfactory rebuttal to the claim that the man should not have to pay child support if:
- he wanted to abort
- she could have aborted
- she chose to give birth

"should've worn a condom"
he didn't, now what? she can abort

"should've talked about it"
they didn't, now what? she can abort

"should be responsible for actions"
it is the woman's action and choice to give birth.

A perfecty valid and strong argument has been presented. You don't like it because you don't like it's consequences, but that doesn't make the argument any less strong.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Birth control for women can have really major side effects that it wouldn't even make sense to be on in hindsight. Also, I've known women who got pregnant while on BC, so nothing is 100% proof. The morning after pill (Plan B) isn't something that should be taken regularly. It is intended to be used only in the case of "emergencies"- when unprotected sex was had or condom error, etc.

I do know there are other forms of BC for women, but I'm not very familiar with them. If there's a cheap one with hardly any side effects, please enlighten me. A condom seems like the easiest option. It's cheap, barely any side effects, and you're protecting against pregnancy and STDs. What more is there to ask for?

Also, in terms of whether or not men should be held accountable for impregnating a woman but not wanting the child, obviously the ideal is for both parties to come to a decision together. Though I do agree consent to sex and consent to pregnancy are two different things, because there is this "blurred line" (the child growing inside a woman's body and not a man's) those not looking for any babies should be aware of the risks and take all necessary precautions.

I don't think fair is always equal. Men and women aren't "exactly alike" in this specific case, so it's illogical to treat the situation as a matter of equality. It's a fair decision because the fact of the matter is is that it's not your body, and therefore you can't dictate what ought to be done.

It would be too complicated for the government to mandate laws in which men can waive off responsibilities. As adults the implication is that people shouldn't be passive in regards to sex and yes it sucks that one mistake can cost you, but this is with anything in life. If you're unsure if your partner is on the same page as you then your best bet is to find another partner who is.

This seems like just basic relationship skills in general.

Edit: Neither parent should be able to waive responsibility unless the other consents to it. I mean… we talk a lot about women "trapping men" but I've read/heard of stories where one guy has many kids for many different women. I mean… there comes a time where people should be held accountable for their actions, having a child is one of them. Tough shit. It's not the child's fault, and if you're the parent you should be the parent.

Well said on all points.

 

[arg]

A perfecty valid and strong argument has been presented. You don't like it because you don't like it's consequences, but that doesn't make the argument any less strong.

i summarized all your main arguments and blasted the shit out of them in that one post lol

 

[crimsonfloyd]

i summarized all your main arguments and blasted the shit out of them in that one post lol

No you didn't. Basically all you offered is "I disagree". Your position involves denying personal responsibility for the consequences of one's actions even when one KNOWS those potential consequences beforehand. Unless you're totally uneducated in life, we all know where babies come from and when we fuck, that's a risk and responsibility we take on. It doesn't matter if you "want" it. If you don't want a baby that badly, don't fuck or find a partner who is on the same page as you. End of story.

 

[arg]

there are consequences and the solution is abortion. after all it's just a bunch of cells with no value. if the woman attaches value to it that's her choice. she wants it, she should pay for it.

if the woman cannot be forced to abort (i would argue that she should be) the man should not be forced to pay.

you would say "you can't tell a woman what to do with her body"

but you can tell a man what to do with the money he used his body and mind to earn? and use his body to cut that child support check? where are your balls?

 

[rms]

Don't ignore my post if you're going to bring this crap back up lamer

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Who ever said women couldn't do the same thing? If either gender knows they never want children, surgery is available.

The absence is still telling. Multiple people suggested vasectomies, no one suggested tube ligations.

Birth control for women can have really major side effects that it wouldn't even make sense to be on in hindsight. Also, I've known women who got pregnant while on BC, so nothing is 100% proof. The morning after pill (Plan B) isn't something that should be taken regularly. It is intended to be used only in the case of "emergencies"- when unprotected sex was had or condom error, etc.

I do know there are other forms of BC for women, but I'm not very familiar with them. If there's a cheap one with hardly any side effects, please enlighten me. A condom seems like the easiest option. It's cheap, barely any side effects, and you're protecting against pregnancy and STDs. What more is there to ask for?

What percentage of women have really serious side effects as a result? I'd be surprised if it was a majority. I'm pretty sure there are physical barrier type things for women with similar efficacy to condoms anyways, but I'm not going to Google them at school.

Edit: Neither parent should be able to waive responsibility unless the other consents to it. I mean… we talk a lot about women "trapping men" but I've read/heard of stories where one guy has many kids for many different women. I mean… there comes a time where people should be held accountable for their actions, having a child is one of them. Tough shit. It's not the child's fault, and if you're the parent you should be the parent.

Dudes that go around impregnating women left and right are idiots and scum, but it's still not the same thing. Unless you're suggesting that these kinds of men tell women they want children with them, promise to raise them together, and then leave late in pregnancy. Otherwise, it was still the decision of those women to carry some random sexual encounter to childbirth. I think those kinds men are comparatively rare when you consider that the term "shotgun marriage" is so established. Or is it that sleeping around as a man is an immoral act unto itself, and they need to be "held accountable" using a child (who will grow up at a significant disadvantage to those with stable families) as the mode of punishment? Because that's what anti-abortion religious types argue regarding the promiscuity of both sexes.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

there are consequences and the solution is abortion. after all it's just a bunch of cells with no value. if the woman attaches value to it that's her choice. she wants it, she should pay for it.

if the woman cannot be forced to abort (i would argue that she should be) the man should not be forced to pay.

The man was responsible for his body when he chose to put his penis in the woman. The woman to let the man put his penis in her AND when she to or not to get an abortion. That's equal rights between genders over their bodies.

you would say "you can't tell a woman what to do with her body"

but you can tell a man what to do with the money he used his body and mind to earn? and use his body to cut that child support check? where are your balls?

False analogy. Both have equal rights and responsibilities over their bodies and their bodies's results.

Like all people, men and woman that create children are finacially responsible for their actions, in thid case, children. Again, that's equal. There's no double standard, no unjust expectations. Equal rights and equal responsibility.

Man who don't want children can simply:
1. Not have sex
2. Get snipped
3. Find a partner who does not want children

If don't choose those three options, the responsibility is on you.

 

[arg]

the creation of the fetus was both of their responsibility. the fetus can be aborted or not aborted by the woman. the man, though it is partially his and has his genetic material, cannot. he bends to the whim of the woman. not equal.

the man can end up spending tons more than the woman. she can sit on her ass all day for years, fuck other men, the man might not even see the kid at all, and the government makes him cough up money HE worked for. causing detrimental effects on his body and lifestyle. against his will. not equal.

my logic is iron clad and unchangeable. im arguing for amusement. if i impregnate a whore, i'll make an appointment with an abortionist, give her the address and the full amount plus taxi for the procedure, kindly wish her well with a hug, say im sorry and disappear forever.

what she does next is up to her. id have done my part of the responsibility. respecting her free will and mine. THAT is equal.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Nope. If she chooses not to, you are legally, morally, socially, and even from a purely causal standpoint, responsible to that baby. Her body, not yours. Therefore, the abortion is her choice. If you don't like the consequences, don't do the actions that lead to those consequences. Again, people who have sex with people with whom they don't know well are making dangerous life decisions, and like most people who make dangerous life decisions, there are often unenjoyable consequences.

 

[Dak]

like most people who make dangerous life decisions, there are often unenjoyable consequences.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Nope. If she chooses not to, you are legally, morally, socially, and even from a purely causal standpoint, responsible to that baby. Her body, not yours. Therefore, the abortion is her choice.

"You are completely responsible for that baby. It is completely her body."

lol. You can repeat yourself as many times as you like, it doesn't make your double-standard go away.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

"You are completely responsible for that baby. It is completely her body."

lol. You can repeat yourself as many times as you like, it doesn't make your double-standard go away.

1. I never said he was completely responsible. Responsibility is split between parents, 50/50.

2. You can call it a double-standard until you're blue in the face, it won't make it one. He's responsible for his dick, she's responsible for her vagina and uterus. In short, both are responsible for their own body. That's equality.