The Abortion (that is this) Thread

[Satanstoenail]

Men claim that they will support a woman, love her and want a family with her in order to have unprotected sex frequently.

I think that's a stretch. The love and commitment under false pretences part is true, but I don't think it's especially common for men to lie that they want children just to have sex.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Men claim that they will support a woman, love her and want a family with her in order to have unprotected sex frequently. Those are false pretenses. Not that you would know since you only have sex with pillows.

If a man doesn't want a child, he should wear a condom.

Even if that's true (and it most likely isn't), so what? She can still abort.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Why shouldn't the woman talk before sex? What the fuck man, everything here is set against the men.

"If someone is flippant with their reproductive system" = If Men don't catch all their semen, it's on them.

Oh quit your whining. You sound like such a privledged crybaby. Who said the woman shouldn't talk before sex? Both should, but obviously, considering the woman has final say, the guy might have more impetus to bring it up.

You do realize that just because she says she doesn't want a child doesn't mean she doesn't actually want one, right?

Well, if you don't know her well enough to know when she's telling the truth and when she's lying, maybe you shouldn't have sex with her. And if you choose to then that's the risk you've chosen to take.

Let's put it simply. People who have sex with people they don't know well are living a risky life. They're risking STDs and unwanted pregnancies. That's the life they choose to live. Like everything in life, there are pros and cons. I'm sick of you apologists acting like these dudes are the vicitims of some anti-man conspiracy. If you don't fuck people you don't know or trust you'll probably never have this problem. If you want to have casual sex, then you need to accept that there are potential consequences.

Now, can someone you've been with for a long time lie to you to trick you into have a baby? Of course. Is it as likely? Definitely not.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

"Well, if you don't know him well enough to know when he's telling the truth and when he's lying, maybe you shouldn't have sex with him."

The rest of your argument is basically nothing more than one-sided slut-shaming.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Divorce and children's courts are notoriously biased towards the woman's side, btw. "Conspiracy", not really, but lingering genetic chivalry fucking with the ingrained doctrine of feminism, absolutely.

 

[Funerary_Doom]

I'm pro-choice, this is just a ramble of stuff. Not responding to anything in particular.

Parenthood begins after fetuses become viable (able to survive out of the womb) or after birth. I won't argue when something is actually "alive" because that isn't a very logical argument, imo. Alive and conscious are two different things.

The hierarchy of "good" and "bad" abortions, is just really silly to me. The decision to have an abortion is personal and complicated and any legislation that seeks to control this is, imo, anti-intellectual. While I do think there can be some moral implications in later term abortions, I don't think it should be up to anyone besides the woman to make such decisions.

Furthermore, the argument against abortion is honestly a moral one which is subject to personal interpretation. If this is the case, it shouldn't be legislated against. People should be allowed the choice in whatever they see fit.

In terms of this "women trapping men" theory and whether or not a man should be held responsible if the woman becomes pregnant, is a bit silly. Having promiscuous sex not only puts you at risk for STDs but it also puts you at risk for pregnancy or impregnating someone. I doubt anyone (unless they know the person they sleep with well) talks in full detail about their opinions when it comes to pregnancy, much less sign off on agreements.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

IIRC something like 20% of the population has cheated on a spouse before. You think they're incapable of lying about things pertaining to pregnancy too? Promiscuity is actually probably less of an issue, because a woman that suddenly gets knocked up while in the party phase of her life isn't going to want to lose that, unless there are religious/familial pressures involved. It's the girlfriend-for-a-short-ish-period-that-suddenly-turns-into-a-shotgun-marriage thing that's more pertinent.

Is there info out there regarding the average point during a pregnancy when a man will abandon a woman, assuming he does at all? If it's on the earlier side like I would expect (presumably shortly after he is aware of her decision to carry to term), then why wouldn't the woman abort? She'll have difficulty in finding a partner to raise her kid and support her, she'll almost certainly have to work all the while raising a child alone (unless she gets lucky wrt her alimony victim), and her child will be at a significant risk for poor adult outcomes. Again, excluding religious pressures, what are the benefits of not having an abortion? Trapping a partner is certainly one, and it doesn't even have to be from a fully cynical economic POV. One of the most common fears is of loneliness/abandonment so there's a significant psychological advantage of holding onto that baby.

 

[CF87]

I'm never having kids, but I don't get laid anyways. So it is not even an issue. I don't even buy condoms or anything or get hit on. Women don't like me at all. It does not bother me.

 

[rms]

Oh quit your whining. You sound like such a privledged crybaby. Who said the woman shouldn't talk before sex? Both should, but obviously, considering the woman has final say, the guy might have more impetus to bring it up.

Uh how about i've asked you like 3 or 4 times from the woman's perspective and you have chosen to ignore it, so up to this point you have given no perspective on the women other than they are a silent baby carrier without the ability to communicate, and that they shouldn't have to.

I don't know why you name call so often, you are really a goofy poster sometimes. If asking you why does one gender get unfair treatment in a equal scenario makes me a "privledged crybaby," then whatever. I know you think you're like this really cool male version of Michelle Pfeiffer or something, but calm down.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Uh how about i've asked you like 3 or 4 times from the woman's perspective and you have chosen to ignore it, so up to this point you have given no perspective on the women other than they are a silent baby carrier without the ability to communicate, and that they shouldn't have to.

I never said or even implied such things. That's all your projection.

Oh quit your whining. You sound like such a privledged crybaby. Who said the woman shouldn't talk before sex? Both should, but obviously, considering the woman has final say, the guy might have more impetus to bring it up.

Because they both equally knew there was a possibility of pregnancy when they fucked and are therefore, are equally responsible for the consequent pregnancy.

I've expressed the woman's responsibility multiple times and have not portrayed her as a passive agent in the least.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I don't know why you name call so often, you are really a goofy poster sometimes. If asking you why does one gender get unfair treatment in a equal scenario makes me a "privledged crybaby," then whatever. I know you think you're like this really cool male version of Michelle Pfeiffer or something, but calm down.

Oh and the treatment isn't unfair. In fact, it's quite equal. Each partner gets the final say on what happens to their own body and each partner is responsible for the consequences of their actions.

 

[rms]

And she knows what happens if she chooses not to terminate her pregnancy. You have literally no logical argument to differentiate the two, you're just making a statement saying "Them's the breaks" to justify your double-standard between men and women.

This is what HBB and I have been saying to you over a page and change now. No answer to this.

Again, he implictly consented when he ha sex. He's not a vicitim unless she straight up lied to him.

Because to you, victim is not a shared thing, it is black and white. No grey area, no one has more "victim" status than the other in this scenario. It's bogus, women are in more control of their reproductive system in this scenario than men are.

Because they both equally knew there was a possibility of pregnancy when they fucked and are therefore, are equally responsible for the consequent pregnancy.

When you say this, you ignore the fact that a woman is alone responsible for having unprotected sex, not being on birth control, not taking a Plan B pill or not getting an abortion. A man who has sex takes a risk at impregnating, but a woman chooses to be pregnant. They are two clearly different things.

"Well, if you don't know him well enough to know when he's telling the truth and when he's lying, maybe you shouldn't have sex with him."

The rest of your argument is basically nothing more than one-sided slut-shaming.

Here is HBB again reducing your argument to exactly what I am trying to point out.


I would actually be really curious as to how you feel about rape scenarios and the lack of personal responsibility women can put themselves into.

I never said or even implied such things. That's all your projection.

I confused one post of mine towards Fate that I thought was you, my bad.

I've expressed the woman's responsibility multiple times and have not portrayed her as a passive agent in the least.

You literally take away the woman's responsibility right here; "but obviously, considering the woman has final say, the guy might have more impetus to bring it up." A man can get screwed over, so he should say something first.

Because they both equally knew there was a possibility of pregnancy

They did not equally know this. A man can think well shit if she didn't want me to wear a condom (or I chose not to) either she's on the pill, can take plan B or can get an abortion. Only the woman knows what she will do once she becomes pregnant. A man is not equally responsible in this. Without communication, one is clearly not equal in these scenarios.

 

[Dak]

Oh and the treatment isn't unfair. In fact, it's quite equal. Each partner gets the final say on what happens to their own body and each partner is responsible for the consequences of their actions.

Women are pretty much never held responsible anymore for the consequences of their actions. Get pregnant? Can abort it. Don't abort it? Can get impregnator, the government, or the impregnator and the government to pay for it. Not responsible.

Get drunk (or not) and want sex then but not want it after the fact? Not responsible. Out after dark in a dangerous area and get attacked? Not responsible. Act like a cunt? Either pre/during/post menstrual, so not responsible. Do poorly in school? Gender bias, not responsible. Do poorly in submitting/applying for anything? Gender bias, not responsible. Receive poor reviews for anything? Gender bias, not responsible. Etc.

 

[SentinelSlain]

Michelle Pfeiffer?

Grease 2 sucks.

 

[Einherjar86]

Women are pretty much never held responsible anymore for the consequences of their actions. Get pregnant? Can abort it. Don't abort it? Can get impregnator, the government, or the impregnator and the government to pay for it. Not responsible.

Get drunk (or not) and want sex then but not want it after the fact? Not responsible. Out after dark in a dangerous area and get attacked? Not responsible. Act like a cunt? Either pre/during/post menstrual, so not responsible. Do poorly in school? Gender bias, not responsible. Do poorly in submitting/applying for anything? Gender bias, not responsible. Receive poor reviews for anything? Gender bias, not responsible. Etc.

Oh my god Dak, you have such a chip on your shoulder.

Also, no woman claims menstruation as a reason for acting out. In fact, that's what men do in order to excuse women from such action, and most women hate it. Come on man, you know this; in fact, several of those excuses you just listed is actually a construction that men have made into order to explain how women can just be bitches sometimes.

 

[rms]

Oh my god Dak, you have such a chip on your shoulder.

Also, no woman claims menstruation as a reason for acting out. In fact, that's what men do in order to excuse women from such action, and most women hate it. Come on man, you know this; in fact, several of those excuses you just listed is actually a construction that men have made into order to explain how women can just be bitches sometimes.

You've never met a woman who blames their emotional state/response on menstruation!?

 

[arg]

Originally Posted by HamburgerBoy View Post
And she knows what happens if she chooses not to terminate her pregnancy. You have literally no logical argument to differentiate the two, you're just making a statement saying "Them's the breaks" to justify your double-standard between men and women.

This is what HBB and I have been saying to you over a page and change now. No answer to this.


When you say this, you ignore the fact that a woman is alone responsible for having unprotected sex, not being on birth control, not taking a Plan B pill or not getting an abortion. A man who has sex takes a risk at impregnating, but a woman chooses to be pregnant. They are two clearly different things.


You literally take away the woman's responsibility right here; "but obviously, considering the woman has final say, the guy might have more impetus to bring it up." A man can get screwed over, so he should say something first.


They did not equally know this. A man can think well shit if she didn't want me to wear a condom (or I chose not to) either she's on the pill, can take plan B or can get an abortion. Only the woman knows what she will do once she becomes pregnant. A man is not equally responsible in this. Without communication, one is clearly not equal in these scenarios.

Women are pretty much never held responsible anymore for the consequences of their actions. Get pregnant? Can abort it. Don't abort it? Can get impregnator, the government, or the impregnator and the government to pay for it. Not responsible.

Get drunk (or not) and want sex then but not want it after the fact? Not responsible. Out after dark in a dangerous area and get attacked? Not responsible. Act like a cunt? Either pre/during/post menstrual, so not responsible. Do poorly in school? Gender bias, not responsible. Do poorly in submitting/applying for anything? Gender bias, not responsible. Receive poor reviews for anything? Gender bias, not responsible. Etc.

.

crimsonfloyd has been indoctrinated by feminist propaganda; he has lost his balls. he is a disgrace to the male gender.

 

[Dak]

Oh my god Dak, you have such a chip on your shoulder.

Also, no woman claims menstruation as a reason for acting out.

Uh, yeah they do. I've lost count how many times I have heard menstruation used as an excuse, regardless of where the woman is in relation to her time of the month. Fortunately my wife does not do this.

 

[SentinelSlain]

Would you prefer honest arguments for measured malevolent reasons?

That was a judgement free observation.

As far as I'm concerned, it isn't arbitrary; it correlates to the parasitic relationship between a fetus and a woman.

Newborn babies are hardly independent. The only difference is that in rich countries society can take over the role of the mother, but as I pointed out, society could have taken over that role, if need be, within some of the timescale of her pregnancy in which abortion would have been legal. I mean she could have had a cesarean and put the kid up for adoption, after the doctors incubated it.

Generally people respond to that with all kinds of wailing about how could a woman be expected to break her nail over the life of an unborn child, it's her body, it's her body blah blah. Meh, in the future males may be physically altered to enable them to give birth, I strongly suspect that these males wont be given the same level of societal hand holding if they change their mind about having a baby, because the hand holding is irrational and is related to primitive group evolutionary strategy that puts value on women in narrow ways related to them being mothers. It's mostly subconscious and most deeply held onto by unthinking people.

Also I suspect they will end up being able to incubate sperm and egg to human without a human being used for their womb at all. So all of the philosophical debate about birth and existence and rights can be logically separated from the rights of women to have control over their bodies.

I don't see the need in all of this "wyminz bodies, wymninz mysticism, that's NOT OK, HUH MEN!" 90s feminazi bullshit.

I don't follow this. The argument doesn't have to do with the value of life in a fetus - that's what some conservatives turn it into. It's about the agency of a woman's body.


Again, I do not follow this. This whole "value of human life" thing needs to be reevaluated; while I don't think it plays no role, it isn't the linchpin of the abortion argument (on the liberal side, at least).

It's always "a woman's body" though isn't it. Never a person's body, because women are irrational, neurotic, objects of desire that need to be wooed by acoustic guitar playing, soulful guardians of a time long since passed of a more pure and noble masculinity. The topic of abortion in no way raises an academic question mark over their own right to exist in the way that it does over those who dare to challenge them, because as baby boomers, they were not born of heterosexual sex, but of gay buggery between men whose only form of communication was limited facial expressions such as knowing looks. Feminism takes a strange form when abortion comes up.

The father should have a say. But I don't think the man's say outweighs the woman's.

And here I'll defy the myth of anti-scientific liberals and say that biology comes to the woman's defense. She's the one bearing the child, so she has the most sway in the decision. I'll reaffirm my comment here that no truly intellectual feminist rejects biology or scientific knowledge in favor of progressive empowerment.

Well currently it seems to be globally accepted that the father has zero power on the matter, it's either all about the woman or it's about the high priests, bishops, mullahs and so on.

 

[Mort Divine]

If men could give birth then there wouldn't be a single criticism of abortion from the usual suspects.