the down side of VSTi drums

[FIXXXER]

this is bothering me for a while now and i
am not sure how to solve this problem.

as a hobby musician i was always bound to
using drum samples and virtual drum plugins.

i started with importing single shot samples
into sequencers and arranging them and then
moved to vst drums when these became available.

in the past i have owned all the popular drum plugins like
EZ drummer, superior 2, addictive drums, BFD 1, BFD2 and SSD4.

all this plugins are good but all of them have their weak points.
let it be the sound in general, the combination of kit pieces available,
or just other limitations like a sparse amount of recorded samples.

i thought picking the best parts out and combining them would work
but now i am at the point where i don't think that this will actually
ever work for me.

the problem with this is the missing uniformity!
every piece sounds good at it's own but together it's just a big mess.

i have tried to "glue" it all together by adding an uniform
reverb to all the kit pieces, but even then it still sounds way
to distracted and not like an uniform drum kit.

blending external samples (LSD drums, double impact drums)
into the full kits to mask the stuff i do not like about the
complete kits brings a little bit of improvement but it often
fails due to the barely non existend possibilities to add external
content.

i guess i am not the only one with this problem so it would
be nice to share some tips and tricks

 

[FIXXXER]

for a better understanding here's an example:

i really like the cymbal sound from the metal foundry SDX but i absolutely dislike how any of the provided shells sounds like,
so i add external samples to the direct mics (kick, snare, toms) using TRIGGER. this sounds ok but it's missing uniformity.

to make it sound a bit more real i only replace the direct shell mics but i leave the original shell samples on the OH and room tracks.
this helps to make it sound like a real drumkit but it also keeps the original shell sound i absolutely do not like.

erasing the original TMF shell sounds from the OH track and adding a reverb to the complete drum kit doen't work also, it just sounds like several kitpieces, well with reverb on it.

 

[Matt-Steele]

I couldn't agree more. I struggle THE MOST BY FAR with my drum sound. For my own personal work, I'm not a drummer, so I have to rely on these sample programs and I honestly hate the sound of them all. I find it maddening when I feel like I've got a sound that I like... You can still tell that it's SSD or Superior or Metal Machine. I own just about every drum library and expansion available for rock/metal and I just can't get past the fact that no matter how hard I try to either combine sample libraries or mix the drums in ways that make them appealing or different, they still aren't original.

I spend far too much time working on this aspect of my own music and it is literally driving me nuts and holding me back creatively.

I know what I have to do, and have told myself what I plan to do, but am still having a difficult time following through with it. I tell myself to stop fucking around and just use Metal Machine as a basis for my drum sound and just mix to taste. But then I find myself saying... how can I really get away with this? It's only loading 300 megs of samples into ram! It's too armature. Everyone uses these drums... etc...

I need help. Eventually I'm probably not going to be happy until I actually learn to play drums myself and record myself. But then I know I'll still want to replace them anyway and I'll be back, right where I am at the moment. ARGH!

Can someone like ERMZ (who gets some killer drum sounds) suggest a workflow or mindset for people like Soultrash and I to work with these virtual instruments and get desired results???

 

[FarBeyondMetal]

There is a reason why 99% of metal records are still real drums, and it's because they are better. No matter how much you tweak the sounds, the velocities, the arrangement, it is still fake and that can't be fully covered up.

That being said, I bet 90% of listeners wouldn't say anything about the drums sounding fake in your guys' recordings.

 

[Matt-Steele]

That being said, I bet 90% of listeners wouldn't say anything about the drums sounding fake in your guys' recordings.

You're right. I actually get compliments, but I'm never happy.

If we had a true SDX that was huge and filled with tons of articulation but recorded by someone like Andy, I think I would be in heaven. But I feel all the SDX's out there are total shit. Yet I hate the over processed sounds and unflexability of pre-processed kits, (SSD - EZX). It's a never ending circle.

 

[FarBeyondMetal]

Have you tried Joe barresi's evil drums sdx? The articulations are insanely in depth and I love the sounds. Definitely my favorite drum vsti

 

[FrankTheSmith]

I usually have the metal foundry cymbals with no shell bleed and slate shells routed to one aux track with a 100% wet light room reverb and it sounds pretty good.

 

[Matt-Steele]

Have you tried Joe barresi's evil drums sdx? The articulations are insanely in depth and I love the sounds. Definitely my favorite drum vsti

I actually don't have that one, and is no longer supported by Toontrack correct? I don't even know if you can still buy it. I was never wowed by the drum sounds.

 

[blue_fAng]

Doesn't SSD 4 have a ton of raw sounds so you can make them sound realistic?

 

[Matt-Steele]

Doesn't SSD 4 have a ton of raw sounds so you can make them sound realistic?

I wouldn't say RAW by any means. The issue I have with SSD is that for the majority of rock and metal kits, they're all very easily identifiable. Oh... That's SSD!

 

[blue_fAng]

I wouldn't say RAW by any means. The issue I have with SSD is that for the majority of rock and metal kits, they're all very easily identifiable. Oh... That's SSD!

I've never owned a Slate product and the problem I see is that many guys use the same samples, the sturgis-like mixes I hear in many metalcore/deathcore sound very similar, almost like they use the same kick/snare number over and over again. I think there was a thread here from last year which guys posted some YT videos of bands that use a particular kit or snare from SSD. I hear the same Superior Avatar and MMF sounds in some records too, SAME samples.

My point is that these guys mixing the songs probably don't care about sounding the same as other guys and like the vibe of these speficic samples, I think.

I remember Ermz posting a SSD drum demo, all programed and sounded realistic as hell. I use Superior almost all the time and I haven't heard any mix with the same drum sound as mine. I also can fool my most "audiophile" friends into thinking the drums are real but I can't fool people like guys in this forum.

That being said, real drums are the best. Sampling your own kit is better ( in a good studio of course).

 

[DavePiatek]

For metal stuff, I like to use our samples blended with some one-shots. Charles J's are really nice to blend in, so I'd start by looking at his stuff if your unprocessed drums don't quite sound right.

 

[Matt-Steele]

I've never owned a Slate product and the problem I see is that many guys use the same samples, the sturgis-like mixes I hear in many metalcore/deathcore sound very similar, almost like they use the same kick/snare number over and over again. I think there was a thread here from last year which guys posted some YT videos of bands that use a particular kit or snare from SSD. I hear the same Superior Avatar and MMF sounds in some records too, SAME samples.

My point is that these guys mixing the songs probably don't care about sounding the same as other guys and like the vibe of these speficic samples, I think.

I remember Ermz posting a SSD drum demo, all programed and sounded realistic as hell. I use Superior almost all the time and I haven't heard any mix with the same drum sound as mine. I also can fool my most "audiophile" friends into thinking the drums are real but I can't fool people like guys in this forum.

That being said, real drums are the best. Sampling your own kit is better ( in a good studio of course).

Totally tracking with everything you're saying.

For metal stuff, I like to use our samples blended with some one-shots. Charles J's are really nice to blend in, so I'd start by looking at his stuff if your unprocessed drums don't quite sound right.

Your samples are for drum replacement. You don't offer the samples in a standalone instrument correct?

 

[Habsburgs]

Can someone like ERMZ (who gets some killer drum sounds) suggest a workflow or mindset for people like Soultrash and I to work with these virtual instruments and get desired results???

you like his drums because you dont have his samples. I sometimes HATE SSD tho. They have THAT sound (lots of transient designer, weird ass eq, no body) just bad. Its like when you eq something solo and then you put them in the mix and it doesnt work.. well thats how SSD mixed these samples IMO.

 

[FIXXXER]

I couldn't agree more. I struggle THE MOST BY FAR with my drum sound. For my own personal work, I'm not a drummer, so I have to rely on these sample programs and I honestly hate the sound of them all. I find it maddening when I feel like I've got a sound that I like... You can still tell that it's SSD or Superior or Metal Machine. I own just about every drum library and expansion available for rock/metal and I just can't get past the fact that no matter how hard I try to either combine sample libraries or mix the drums in ways that make them appealing or different, they still aren't original.

I spend far too much time working on this aspect of my own music and it is literally driving me nuts and holding me back creatively.

I know what I have to do, and have told myself what I plan to do, but am still having a difficult time following through with it. I tell myself to stop fucking around and just use Metal Machine as a basis for my drum sound and just mix to taste. But then I find myself saying... how can I really get away with this? It's only loading 300 megs of samples into ram! It's too armature. Everyone uses these drums... etc...

I need help. Eventually I'm probably not going to be happy until I actually learn to play drums myself and record myself. But then I know I'll still want to replace them anyway and I'll be back, right where I am at the moment. ARGH!

Can someone like ERMZ (who gets some killer drum sounds) suggest a workflow or mindset for people like Soultrash and I to work with these virtual instruments and get desired results???

100% agree, it's a vicious circle.
the worst thing is that it really holds me back
from writing new stuff. we all know that a good sound can be inspiring,
so when i load up some of my drum "presets" it instantly feels not right.

There is a reason why 99% of metal records are still real drums, and it's because they are better. No matter how much you tweak the sounds, the velocities, the arrangement, it is still fake and that can't be fully covered up.

That being said, I bet 90% of listeners wouldn't say anything about the drums sounding fake in your guys' recordings.

yeah, most of the time people do not particularly dislike my drum sounds,
i do though

You're right. I actually get compliments, but I'm never happy.

If we had a true SDX that was huge and filled with tons of articulation but recorded by someone like Andy, I think I would be in heaven. But I feel all the SDX's out there are total shit. Yet I hate the over processed sounds and unflexability of pre-processed kits, (SSD - EZX). It's a never ending circle.

this would be great but i don't think that this will ever happen. SDX's always aimed to be "versatile" the amount of different mics is ridiculous. TMF has like 5 different snare tracks, unfortunately they all sound weak and kind of muffled.

Have you tried Joe barresi's evil drums sdx? The articulations are insanely in depth and I love the sounds. Definitely my favorite drum vsti

it's great for rock stuff but does not fit any of my metal stuff. there's also a lack of different cymbals in this SDX. i can add some Xdrums of course but then again, no matter what i try the added xdrum always sounds displaced.

I usually have the metal foundry cymbals with no shell bleed and slate shells routed to one aux track with a 100% wet light room reverb and it sounds pretty good.

i did this for a pretty long time but i never got really satisfied with it.
you can clearly hear that it's two different things.

Doesn't SSD 4 have a ton of raw sounds so you can make them sound realistic?

sounds a bit more realistic than the standard SSD stuff, still the overall sound is not really good IMHO, especially the cymbals sound very strange in the deluxe kits.

For metal stuff, I like to use our samples blended with some one-shots. Charles J's are really nice to blend in, so I'd start by looking at his stuff if your unprocessed drums don't quite sound right.

i think that one shot samples do not really help here, even if the samples itself are really good.

 

[DavePiatek]

Totally tracking with everything you're saying.

Your samples are for drum replacement. You don't offer the samples in a standalone instrument correct?

We offer them in Kontakt format for those folks that have the full version. The standalone instrument thing may change soon, though ;-)

 

[Matt-Steele]

We offer them in Kontakt format for those folks that have the full version. The standalone instrument thing may change soon, though ;-)

That's good news. I just bought Drumasonic not long ago and have already given up on it since I just can not stand the Kontakt player. I will use a Toontrack offering before dealing with that tiny window. I actually liked some of the snare and kick sounds in that library but most of the cymbals I found dreadful.

 

[The StabbinCabin]

Another thought for you drum sample makers- make some impulses of your rooms to throw on top of existing overhead tracks. I feel like that would help a bit with an overhead and room impulse included in future packages just to keep things together a bit more.

 

[Grå Värld]

One option is to hire via the merch stand here on the Sneap forum a real drummer to record your songs and send you their real drum tracks to mix. It may be the only way to get the drum sound you want.

 

[Machinated]

the biggest down side of VSTi drums is that people think they are an acceptable replacement for real drums.

sometimes they are a necessity, toontrack do the best products in my opinion and evil drums is well worth it. there are several places still selling them if you look around. sound city, and a fucking great engineer. what more can you ask for?