the down side of VSTi drums

[Nuno Filipe]

I think superior avatar kit sounds quite good, if you use samples to augment the snare and replace the kick, you are almost ready to go with a decent sound. Also, a big drum sound it´s in the room mics, so play with them. To me it´s just the toms that require a bit of work, because it´s hard to have a big tom sound, with a big low end and clarity without clipping.

 

[drew_drummer]

Hmm. I can certainly see merit in a lot of the viewpoints expressed here. To me the key to understanding this is that samples of drums are not physics aware - something happens with a real drumkit, repeated hits of a cymbal cause resonant build ups in both the physics of the cymbal *and* the physics of the room. Drum samplers are simply AHR playback engines that overlap to a degree - they *all* work the same; addictive drums, bfd, superior, etc... they're all using the same core sample-playback method.

I think it is like amp sims - you can get a really believable performance out of these things. But it takes work and commitment. They're not as instant gratification as a real kit - a real kit sounds amazing even when recorded through very basic preamps with very basic microphones. Because of the interaction of the room, kit, and player.

As some of you know, I work for FXpansion, and this is something we debate a fair amount in-house in order to try and improve our products.

I'd question that notion of most metal recordings using real drums still - there is nearly always an element of synthesis as I'm sure everyone knows. At what point can you still say it is real drums, when you've layered it up with Trigger and when you've compressed, expanded, and envelope shaped them to death??

It is a bit of a trade off though. When I recorded 'Exegesis' I was resolute about going entirely real drums. I didn't layer them at all - 16 microphones on the kit. Phase alignment during the edit. EQ, compression, clipping, limiting, saturation, reverb. I got where I wanted to get. But it was a damn sight more difficult than just loading up BFD2 and some of the Platinum Samples packs; and the drums definitely have a different quality to them. More malleable and washy sounding, and more dynamic - which is what I was after.

I don't think of drum software as real drum replacement, nor do I think of amp sims as valve amp replacement. They're just different tools with a different sound. If that sound isn't what you're after, then fuck it - use real drums!

Also, the Evil Drums SDX was originally a BFD2 pack - just thought I'd point that out

 

[drew_drummer]

sound city, and a fucking great engineer.

Not anymore bro

 

[drew_drummer]

Another thought for you drum sample makers- make some impulses of your rooms to throw on top of existing overhead tracks. I feel like that would help a bit with an overhead and room impulse included in future packages just to keep things together a bit more.

We've tried this in the past, with BFD2 actually. I wasn't around then, but I was told that it didn't really work that well, because you were effectively putting a room on top of a room.

Have you ever heard that track "I am sitting in a room" by Alvin Lucier ??



That is effectively what you get. It would work reasonably well for DI signals, but then you've got the mid-range hump that Ermz talks about, that IR's impart to a sound - and you've got it across everything.

uke:

 

[Machinated]

Not anymore bro

least there is a sample library recorded there with an absolute genius in joe barresi though.

 

[drew_drummer]

Yup, true that. I went to SC in 2009 when I went to NAMM with the company; I think Weezer were recording there at the time, although I didn't meet any of them. Place was epic!! Good times.

 

[domingooo]

I understand what you mean...
i`m using superior right now. i use TMF as base to build everithing else. i have replace every shell but the kick with Metal Machine shells via Xdrum. and i have added kick's room mics from MM as an x drum to the TMF's Kicks just to have the sense of "being in the same room" feel.
In addition i have added the MM room mics from the OH and have them routed to the same group of TMF OH rooms to be treated together...
I`m good with my results for now.

 

[FIXXXER]

One option is to hire via the merch stand here on the Sneap forum a real drummer to record your songs and send you their real drum tracks to mix. It may be the only way to get the drum sound you want.

yeah,but getting a real good drum sound would surely cost a fortune.

the biggest down side of VSTi drums is that people think they are an acceptable replacement for real drums.

sometimes they are a necessity, toontrack do the best products in my opinion and evil drums is well worth it. there are several places still selling them if you look around. sound city, and a fucking great engineer. what more can you ask for?

in my case there is no other option. it's a hobby, yet i am trying to get the best out of it. i also thought to hook up with some drummer but you know how this works, people do not want to spend any money this most of the time.

Yeah I love Metal Foundry's overheads but the shells sound so flat and boxy unless you EQ them heavily and then it's plastic hell. Have you tried Evil Drums? It's the only library I rarely feel the need to use samples with. Sometimes I'll replace the kick but there's a nice 20x24 pork pie kick that can serve most purposes. Overheads and toms are great, snares are the best out there imo. Rooms are very clean and can be used in a metal mix without dragging it in to the mud. The end result always sounds like a real drummer in a great studio. Only downside is it's stock with just 2 cymbals and a ride but I use x-drum in Superior to add more.

evil drums is nice but as you already mentioned it, 2 cymbals and a ride is
ano-go. i also used to add a splash with the xdrum function but it always sounded weird and completely out of place.

maybe i didn't find the best combination, i have TMF, evil drums,
and the NY SDX. basically i could build up a complete custom kit
using XDRUM.

I think superior avatar kit sounds quite good, if you use samples to augment the snare and replace the kick, you are almost ready to go with a decent sound. Also, a big drum sound it´s in the room mics, so play with them. To me it´s just the toms that require a bit of work, because it´s hard to have a big tom sound, with a big low end and clarity without clipping.

unfortunately i do not like almost any of the S2 room sounds, that's why i always use the dry tracks and add a reverb plugin on the drum bus.

Hmm. I can certainly see merit in a lot of the viewpoints expressed here. To me the key to understanding this is that samples of drums are not physics aware - something happens with a real drumkit, repeated hits of a cymbal cause resonant build ups in both the physics of the cymbal *and* the physics of the room. Drum samplers are simply AHR playback engines that overlap to a degree - they *all* work the same; addictive drums, bfd, superior, etc... they're all using the same core sample-playback method.

i know what you are saying but i am not sure if this is the actual problem.
i think its not a "real vs vsti drums" thing, i am just not happy how the source sound sof the vsti's sound like, or even closer explained, i do not like how certain parts sound. that't the thing i do not get here, TMF has great cymbals but shitty shells, avatar has great snares but shitty kicks and ok cymbals. the evil drums SDX has a nice sound in general but doesn't offer enough kit pieces etc.

i think i would be pretty happy with a drum vsti that has the best out of these, just like a well tuned and recorded single kit. no experiments no infinite possibilities that lead to nothing at the end.

I understand what you mean...
i`m using superior right now. i use TMF as base to build everithing else. i have replace every shell but the kick with Metal Machine shells via Xdrum. and i have added kick's room mics from MM as an x drum to the TMF's Kicks just to have the sense of "being in the same room" feel.
In addition i have added the MM room mics from the OH and have them routed to the same group of TMF OH rooms to be treated together...
I`m good with my results for now.

i will try that, thanks

 

[PD-Baraka]

Toontrack should listen and let Sneap do a fullblown SDX with lots of kits and snares and better cymbals.

Even the EZ from that guy is the best Toontrack has for metal.

 

[Matt-Steele]

Toontrack should listen and let Sneap do a fullblown SDX

+1 THIS! This would be the end all be all PERIOD. Probably why they wouldn't do it.

 

[PD-Baraka]

Mixosaurus made a great kit too, too bad the second kit never came out. Maybe they ran out of money?

 

[drew_drummer]

i know what you are saying but i am not sure if this is the actual problem.
i think its not a "real vs vsti drums" thing, i am just not happy how the source sound sof the vsti's sound like, or even closer explained, i do not like how certain parts sound. that't the thing i do not get here, TMF has great cymbals but shitty shells, avatar has great snares but shitty kicks and ok cymbals. the evil drums SDX has a nice sound in general but doesn't offer enough kit pieces etc.

i think i would be pretty happy with a drum vsti that has the best out of these, just like a well tuned and recorded single kit. no experiments no infinite possibilities that lead to nothing at the end.

Hmm. Yeah I think I know where you're coming from. Problem is, we all have different viewpoints on what is a well tuned and well recorded kit.

Have you tried layering? I pretty much never use a single kick drum or a single snare. I layer like fuck, often combining the kick in microphone of one kick, with the kick out and kick sub of another kick.

I once layered Superior with BFD2; made sure the keymaps matched up, and I loaded in a full kit into each. It sounded massive, so you're not even limited to just X-Drums.

With kicks for instance; do what Ola does with bass. Get a good source kick or pair of kicks layered up. Distort the living fuck out of one of them, and then envelope shape it so that you just get an ugly-ass transient. Then mix it in with the other kick to add some attack. Then get an 808 kick drum, and layer that in there for the low end. Should be able to sound massive.

You can do similar things with toms, and layering a burst of white noise with a snare drum can help bring out the sizzle, without any of the shitty aspects of a bottom microphone (which I personally never use)

 

[FIXXXER]

Toontrack should listen and let Sneap do a fullblown SDX with lots of kits and snares and better cymbals.

would be great, won't happen for sure

Even the EZ from that guy is the best Toontrack has for metal.

Mixosaurus made a great kit too, too bad the second kit never came out. Maybe they ran out of money?

is this where the "nskit" came from?

Hmm. Yeah I think I know where you're coming from. Problem is, we all have different viewpoints on what is a well tuned and well recorded kit.

Have you tried layering? I pretty much never use a single kick drum or a single snare. I layer like fuck, often combining the kick in microphone of one kick, with the kick out and kick sub of another kick.

I once layered Superior with BFD2; made sure the keymaps matched up, and I loaded in a full kit into each. It sounded massive, so you're not even limited to just X-Drums.

With kicks for instance; do what Ola does with bass. Get a good source kick or pair of kicks layered up. Distort the living fuck out of one of them, and then envelope shape it so that you just get an ugly-ass transient. Then mix it in with the other kick to add some attack. Then get an 808 kick drum, and layer that in there for the low end. Should be able to sound massive.

You can do similar things with toms, and layering a burst of white noise with a snare drum can help bring out the sizzle, without any of the shitty aspects of a bottom microphone (which I personally never use)

i layer drums all the time, it seems not to help making it sound uniform, it's more like the other way around in my case

 

[Audiofan]

Hi! We have recently published a list of the top vst drums that you can check out. For metal, I really like EZDrummer EZX Metalheads and Metal machine, and also XLN Audio Metal ADPack.