The End All To Auto Tune Thread

[devouredremains]

It's still a bit of a rip in the pants when you hear a band's CD and it sounds so killer only to hear them live and it's garbage...

Absolutely. I understand what your saying and why you are saying it.

But when a band asks for a certain sound any successful engineer would do everything they could to deliver just that. It's like any other business, you need to make the client happy. Nobody wants to have a shit sounding disc because the engineer wanted to skimp on editing for whatever reason.

I'll quantize breakdowns all day and night to pay the bills. I don't give a fuck.

 

[SentencedToBurn]

I'm pretty sure most of the Nile records don't have any auto-tune. Then again I may be wrong.

you dead serious?

 

[ahjteam]

to be honest, i've only recorded like 5 parts in my entire life that were supposed to have auto tune for the "effect". im excluding attack attack because thats a part of their sound.

...

yeah but im getting ranked on for singing parts that arent cher sounding but people percieve as cher sounding? i guess? because the people are writing singing parts that dont have any movement in pitch. like a note per sylable

I apologise in advance as this rambling might be pretty confusing as I have the language barrier between me and my text, but please try to bare with me

And just to make this perfectly clear: I actually like the autotune as effect that you did with Attack Attack, but I think that the overproduction aspect is what I don't like. The mix and that does sound good, but I think it is the performances you polish too much, there are no nuances (which some people call errors).

I was in a lecture that Hiili Hiilesmaa (He has produced bands like Amorphis, HIM, Lordi, Sepultura etc) held at our university and I totally agree what he said... He said that he felt bad that the most of the modern debut album rockmusicians don't even pass mediocre mark as musicians and singers. And the labels are to blame in my opinion, "because you can fix it in the mix", so they can sign bands that don't need to be as talented as before, and they don't need to push the musicians so hard to get the same results because of the tools in hand.

What I mean is that it is the overuse of the tools in hand (be it protools, autotune, melodyne, beat detective, 100% straight to grid editing...) that kills the human feel from the music when it is taken to the inhuman level, which leads to that everyone sounds the same and pretty much become faceless robotic gray mass. There aren't any big icons anymore, which were brought up by their huge talent, only icons that were brought up by huge amount of marketing. For example, name the modern Freddy Mercury of our time, that started to play music in a band the 1990s or later.

But I also do have to note that the current trend is that everything must sound perfect "because it can sound like that", while I actually like music that actually has been played "a bit wrong". Earlier Metallica, Sepultura, Pantera and Nirvana albums are still one of my favourite albums of all time eventho Lars played the doublekicks like shit, Kurt doesn't play to a click, Anselmo sings high notes a bit out of tune and Max didn't know how to tune his guitars. I think it's those little unperfections that made the near perfect records of that time that made the classics. And oh yeah, they made some really fucking good songs on those albums too!

 

[Keessi]

But I also do have to note that the current trend is that everything must sound perfect "because it can sound like that", while I actually like music that actually has been played "a bit wrong". Earlier Metallica, Sepultura, Pantera and Nirvana albums are still one of my favourite albums of all time eventho Lars played the doublekicks like shit, Kurt doesn't play to a click, Anselmo sings high notes a bit out of tune and Max didn't know how to tune his guitars. I think it's those little unperfections that made the near perfect records of that time that made the classics. And oh yeah, they made some really fucking good songs on those albums too!

What made those albums classic, were the songs. Back in 1991 not every band could sound like what pantera did back then. Now it's even remotely possible. They could stand out because there was no other bands doing that exact same thing as they were.

What is played wrong on those Pantera(CFH->) and Nirvana albums? Please do tell.

I hate the old sepultura because they couldn't tune their guitars. wtf is up with that? sounds retarded.

Nirvana just played really tight. No need for editing.

I don't really notice the out of tune vocals of anselmo to be honest. They're enough in tune for my ear at least. Well sometimes when he goes really high and it's just rediculous to start with he might miss it a bit, but I think he did a pretty good job.

IMO Pantera from cowboys to hell --> Tight as FUCK.
I don't hear any major mistakes. Actually any that I consider mistakes. The songs groove as hell and are tight on the beat all the time.

I'd rather listen to tight edited drums than really untight non-edited drums.

Other than the sepultura not in tune, I don't really get what you mean with "little imperfections."

That said, I really enjoy Carcass' - Symphonies of sickness even though it's played like shit. I don't like it because it's played like shit, I like it cause it has good songs. I'd like it even more if it was tightly played and with a better sound.

If editing can make something sound as tight as Pantera/Nirvana/your mama for example, be my guest and make that happen FFS.

BUT there are tight bands around there for sure. not to promote my work but listen to this: http://www.myspace.com/feastem .
Even if you don't like grind, you have to admit, the drummer plays tight as hell. It's not edited to grid. He played that shit.

wow. the off topicness is earth shattering.

 

[John_C]

I think phil anselmo captures the essense of the raw feeling of metal. Imagine putting autotune on his vocals.....i'm not sure whether my first thought is to laugh or to vomit.

As a musician - if you're using it to cover up that you can't sing in tune, go get singing lessons. If you're using it for effect, then i hate you*, but go ahead all the same

As a producer - do what you have to in order to please the band, the record label etc... and turn whatever shit takes the musicians can muster into a professional sounding product.

*not really, i'm just a bit less likely to like your music, overall

EDIT: and back on topic, joey i think your work is amazing, the level of autotune is not to my tastes but that's just my taste and shouldn't affect you one bit!

 

[egan.]

He said that he felt bad that the most of the modern debut album rockmusicians don't even pass mediocre mark as musicians and singers. And the labels are to blame in my opinion, "because you can fix it in the mix", so they can sign bands that don't need to be as talented as before, and they don't need to push the musicians so hard to get the same results because of the tools in hand.

I always think arguments like this are ridiculous. Is everyone shittier or is it that labels stopped replacing the guys in the band with ghost musicians? Is it that no one can sing/play or is it the 75% reduction in album budgets that have happened over that past decade?
Some of your favorite records had the drums edited with a razor, the kicks replaced with programed midi, the tape speed slowed to get the singer to pitch and spent 2 months on vocals.
Is it easier? Yes it is, but so what?
The production style in question (like all production styles) is a trend and what Joey is doing is 100% in line with the other stuff on the Billboard Charts.

 

[ahjteam]

IMO Pantera from cowboys to hell --> Tight as FUCK.

That I agree with you. Pantera is tight AS FUCK as band, but they did not play GRID TIGHT and that is the magic in them in my opinion. Groove is life, off grid! I guarantee that if you put any Pantera song from Cowboys from Hell, Vulgar Display of Power or Far Beyond Driven to a click (tempomapping not allowed!), they won't be on click after 20 seconds...

Nirvana just played really tight. No need for editing.

Kurt's part on Nevermind are not supertight, but the band as a whole grooves like fuck so it doesn't matter. And I disagree, I could bet my left kidney that Nevermind definately has atleast some editing in it, but it was just made with a razorblade.

I don't really notice the out of tune vocals of anselmo to be honest.

Cemetary Gates isn't Anselmo's greatest performance eventho the song kicks ass... For example the modulation effect on beginning is made to mask the slight off tune of the singing (and that actually sounds a bit like autotune ), the vocals at 5:55-6:00 are put a lot quieter because they are out of tune. And all of the the high pitched screams after 6:15 aren't in tune either and so on.

It's one of those things that after you first time hear it, and it's usually FUCKING ANNOYING AS FUCK, because after that you hear it each and every time (for example the high pitched guitar squeal on Faith No More's "Midlife Crisis" that I didn't hear until I had owned the album for like 8 years)

I'd rather listen to tight edited drums than really untight non-edited drums.

I would rather listen to tight non-edited drummer than sloppy edited drummer.

If editing can make something sound as tight as Pantera/Nirvana/your mama for example, be my guest and make that happen FFS.

 

[ahjteam]

which leads to that everyone sounds the same and pretty much become faceless robotic gray mass.

The production style in question (like all production styles) is a trend and what Joey is doing is 100% in line with the other stuff on the Billboard Charts.

...which was my point exactly.

 

[Rex Rocker]

I have nothing against autotune... except for the fact that I like Melodyne better.

 

[CatharsisStudios]

Fuck all this true metal bullshit, oh its autotune therefore they must suck, yeah no.


i perosnally listen to the cd for perfection and to just chill out if i don't wana hear autotune i will see it live, there,

 

[Rex Rocker]

Fuck all this true metal bullshit, oh its autotune therefore they must suck, yeah no.


i perosnally listen to the cd for perfection and to just chill out if i don't wana hear autotune i will see it live, there,

+1

 

[GarethSE]

funny, i listen to the cd for the music, perfect production or not.
good music will shine through any production, it may take a bit longer, but it will always shine through, and thats what matters

 

[chdrummer]

Fuck all this true metal bullshit, oh its autotune therefore they must suck, yeah no.


i perosnally listen to the cd for perfection and to just chill out if i don't wana hear autotune i will see it live, there,

+1

i think everyone here just likes to argue :]

 

[ahjteam]

funny, i listen to the cd for the music, perfect production or not. good music will shine through any production, it may take a bit longer, but it will always shine through, and thats what matters

+1, exactly what I was thinking

 

[John_C]

music > production

 

[Black neon bob]

I could care less about auto-tune being used or not.. if it sounds good, bla etc..

 

[Keessi]

I would rather listen to tight non-edited drummer than sloppy edited drummer.

Me too!


About pantera being tight as a grid, I think this is as tight as a metal band can get without any editing seriously.

I don't hear any out of beat shit or any involuntary tempo changes.
It grooves cause it sounds like it's tightly in grid. Not because it's somewhere "there." This shit is tiiiight.

ok well now that I listen to cemetery gates I hear what you mean about the out of tune vocals. It's just off slightly sometimes, but his voice keeps saving the part like 15 times...

Listen to heresy from the same album. That's tight as a computer and it's still a fairly hard song to play cause it has some quirkyness. Still it grooves and maintains tempo throughout the song. I wish every band I record could play like them.

 

[[UEAK]Clowd]

I've said it time and time again - as far as I'm concerned, the people that are hating on autotune are just plain ignorant. They must not work with any amount of layering, because if they did they would see that, while it can be used to polish turds, it's primary use is to get shit consistent from take to take. When you have 7 or 8 or more layers of vocals going on at once, I don't care who you are, the minor imperfections are going to add up quick.

So you guys that either don't work with a lot of layering and/or want to spend 6 months getting one part right, have fun. I, and Joey, and countless others I am sure, will keep on using some tuning, guilt free.

ps. I don't even hear Joey's use of autotune as "over-the-top" or whatever some people here have described it as. Obviously it sounds tuned but only because we know... the general public has no idea what autotune is so they just think the guy is a really good singer.

I don't know who you guys make records for but I want as many people as humanly possible to dig my records and think the performances were rock solid. I do not give two shits about the methods it took to get there - I will edit and tune and "cheat" as much as it takes because guess what, the general public (aka the ones spending the $$$) doesn't know and doesn't give a fuck.

sorry for ranting but I'm just as agitated as Joey is about the auto-tune shit talking. It's ridiculous.

 

[Force666]

Who gives a shit either way?

It's just like CGI in a movie....or whatever else. You'de probably fuck some chick who put makeup on right? So what's the difference?

Everyone always so worried about what everyone else is doing. Such a waste of time.

Know why people talk shit Joey? Cause they're jealous and they'll try and justify it to themselves however they can.



BOB...what's with the sig?

 

[paladin shredder]

joey, i hope this all wasn't started with my thread i posted where we made fun of attack attack. don't take that as an attack (attack) against you or your amazing production skills.

edit: i don't think sonata arctica has ever had to use auto tune on their music, and they have some new material with modern productions that sound fantastic! not that i personally have any problem with auto tune from a producer standpoint.