The News Thread

[King Richard]

Well, the system is fucked and I want you guys to acknowledge it.

Allowing people to continuously fail is a systemic problem, not an individual problem. If the individual refuses to stay within the requirements of the school as far as performance and time/money management, they should be kicked out, simple as that. College is supposed about learning the skills necessary to be a productive member of society, not creating insurmountable debt and being a dreg. But institutions don't give a shit about that. They get paid top dollar to entertain the idea of you excelling and making mega bucks. If that takes 10 years, then oh well, they're getting paid so who cares?

It all boils down to the system, simple as that.

 

[Dak]

Well, the system is fucked and I want you guys to acknowledge it.

Allowing people to continuously fail is a systemic problem, not an individual problem. If the individual refuses to stay within the requirements of the school as far as performance and time/money management, they should be kicked out, simple as that. College is supposed about learning the skills necessary to be a productive member of society, not creating insurmountable debt and being a dreg. But institutions don't give a shit about that. They get paid top dollar to entertain the idea of you excelling and making mega bucks. If that takes 10 years, then oh well, they're getting paid so who cares?

It all boils down to the system, simple as that.

I think the system is fucked. I just differ 100% in my knowledge of the problem and solutions.

Who is paying them top dollar? The majority of funds already come from the government/government guaranteed loans. Free education means 100% of the funds come from the government with the loans coming from the general taxpayer instead of the individual borrower. How is that going to lead to higher standards and people being kicked out?

Progressivism is 100% about complaining about the unfairness of "standards", so I don't see any sort of meritocratic correction occurring in tandem with "errbody dezerrrrvvess" financial provision.

 

[King Richard]

Honestly, it's one of the reasons why I may never go back to school. I think I'm smart enough to do well in school, I just never once thought what I was taught in school was actually the missing link to my success in the world whether from a technical standpoint or a business oriented standpoint. It always seemed like a letdown, like I wasn't at an institution of higher learning, simply a place people paid to get taught the bare minimum or to memorize formulas or random stuff to do random things. And mind you, I was studying mechanical and electrical engineering at Purdue ffs.

I feel like I've done much better for myself working 70-80 hours a week in a position that feels like the weight of the world is on my shoulders and succeeded. And now, through all that hard work, I was offered a position making as close to 6 figures a year as you can get, at a company that is in the business of taking over the future of the world. heh

 

[Dak]

Honestly, it's one of the reasons why I may never go back to school. I think I'm smart enough to do well in school, I just never once thought what I was taught in school was actually the missing link to my success in the world whether from a technical standpoint or a business oriented standpoint. It always seemed like a letdown, like I wasn't at an institution of higher learning, simply a place people payed to get taught the bare minimum or to memorize formulas or random stuff to do random things. And mind you, I was studying mechanical and electrical engineering at Purdue ffs.

I feel like I've done much better for myself working 70-80 hours a week in a position that feels like the weight of the world is on my shoulders and succeeded. And now, through all that hard work, I was offered a position making as close to 6 figures a year as you can get, at a company that is in the business of taking over the future of the world. heh

Dude I think that's great. It is a terrible progressivist lie that college is either desirable or necessary for everyone. My closest brother is probably nearly or as intelligent as me, and yet he is close to pulling 6 figures with no college education, pulling himself up "by the bootstraps" with his natural affinity for sales while I have years of graduate education ahead. In terms of lifetime earnings he will probably beat me. I don't care. Different paths, still pursuing personal dreams. I'm rooting for you, and frankly I root for everyone on this forum to achieve their personal goals (even those I appear to antagonize). I just think most of you have been completely bamboozled by "the system" as to what the defects are in our certainly flawed system.

 

[Dak]

I should probably take a break of a post to explicitly state that were all of us to meet, I would still buy a round of beers. I really do pull for all of you guys. Even Mort.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Bullshit. Proof?

Bullshit again. Proof?

lol wow, that is extremely misleading man. One example eh? What are the other countries that round out the top 10 or 15? The US is the exception, not the rule.

Here's UCSD for example:

http://studentresearch.ucsd.edu/_files/UCSDCollegeProfile.pdf

The average student receives aid equivalent to all costs minus room and board.

 

[King Richard]

Dude I think that's great. It is a terrible progressivist lie that college is either desirable or necessary for everyone. My closest brother is probably nearly or as intelligent as me, and yet he is close to pulling 6 figures with no college education, pulling himself up "by the bootstraps" with his natural affinity for sales while I have years of graduate education ahead. In terms of lifetime earnings he will probably beat me. I don't care. Different paths, still pursuing personal dreams. I'm rooting for you, and frankly I root for everyone on this forum to achieve their personal goals (even those I appear to antagonize). I just think most of you have been completely bamboozled by "the system" as to what the defects are in our certainly flawed system.

I mean, I agree with a lot of your sentiment about people being bitches and not sucking it up enough to get shit done. And I'd be lying if I said that when I see people complain about hard work or take advantage of shit just to help themselves and not understand that there's a purpose to support nets it doesn't piss me off. You and I can attest to the fact that most people really don't know what hard work is, and compared to the underprivileged people or immigrants, or people simply on work visas who work for pennies on the dollar just to survive and support their family, or the people in sweatshops manufacturing shit we don't need, our idea of hard work pales in comparison to theirs (it's kind of a slippery slope that topic is, but you get the point). All of that does matter, I do agree with you. But the fact that the "system" doesn't slap people with a dose of reality and continuously encourages bad behavior and/or simply turns a blind eye to it is, in my opinion, very wrong. There's a fundamental lack of give a shit on both sides. You're more in favor of fixing the people problem, I'm more in favor of fixing the systemic problem, because I think that that is actually fixable. But obviously both are problems, I acknowledge that. However, I don't think it's a bad thing or feel morally responsible for someone making bad decisions as long as the system is there to correct it. If someone wants to flunk out of college and amass debt because they're an idiot and didn't study and just partied the whole time then that's on them, fuck em. However, for those people who buy into the idea that college is necessary, which is pushed on everyone at a young age, and is something even the corporate world seems to perpetuate because of all of their bullshit, unrealistic qualifications for, let's be honest here often times entry level positions, then that needs addressed immediately.

Thanks for the support btw.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

I didnt know Jeb had dropped out 'till yesterday. Super PAC's ftw!

 

[Dak]

Certainly the system feeds a majority of people a significant amount of bullshit (I hate using the term "significant" because of its statistical meaning but whatever), but people shouldn't be given a completely free pass because they just headnod through life.There's an "epigenetic factor", and it is what it is. Politics should deal in realism instead of utopianism, but democracy will never elect a realist.

 

[King Richard]

Here's UCSD for example:

http://studentresearch.ucsd.edu/_files/UCSDCollegeProfile.pdf

The average student receives aid equivalent to all costs minus room and board.

holy fuck, it costs 31 large to go to UC San Diego?! lol wow

Thanks for the info but, that didn't answer my questions. I don't think it's easy to figure out if "a lot" of people go to school for "free." There's just not enough information. Just proves that there's financial aid available, and apparently a lot of it. All it does for me is beg the questions of why the hell do so many people need financial aid? And is that a good thing? Should college be so expensive that you have to jump through all of these hoops and start out your professional left in such a large deficit? I mean, if we're talking about the cost of elite schools like Harvard of Stanford, yeah sure I get it. But UCSD? heh, I don't think so.

 

[Dak]

I think probably ~50% (at least) of people who go to college shouldn't. And the fact that they do is directly attributable to the culture that both encourages attendance and votes for subsidization.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

holy fuck, it costs 31 large to go to UC San Diego?! lol wow

Thanks for the info but, that didn't answer my questions. I don't think it's easy to figure out if "a lot" of people go to school for "free." There's just not enough information. Just proves that there's financial aid available, and apparently a lot of it. All it does for me is beg the questions of why the hell do so many people need financial aid? And is that a good thing? Should college be so expensive that you have to jump through all of these hoops and start out your professional left in such a large deficit? I mean, if we're talking about the cost of elite schools like Harvard of Stanford, yeah sure I get it. But UCSD? heh, I don't think so.

FAFSA is not some big hurdle, unless you're not in contact with your parents or something like that (which would suck admittedly). People need financial aid because paying highly educated experts in various fields costs money, as do expensive research projects/equipment, and every new building they feel like erecting. If you want to say that universities waste a lot of money on useless shit, then sure I think a lot of people could agree, but even then it's ambiguous whether that would fix rapidly rising education costs. I did see a study that suggested even students that receive "no" support are actually still a net-loss on the school's overall budget, so that as more students enroll tuition will only become more and more expensive to cover for that. I don't have a link immediately handy for that though.

 

[Matt]

That's all a separate problem entirely from tuition cost, and your preferred "solutions" exacerbate the problem, which is amazing as somehow a minor in economics apparently did fuck all for your actual knowledge of economics.

You have displayed an understanding similar to that of someone who was required to take undergrad intro to econ class coupled with articles from Zerohedge, so I'm not surprised to hear you say that. However, I went to a conservative econ program and excelled (and I majored in it), but I'm sure somehow you're practically an economist at this point anyway. It's all duh feds fault etc etc

That's the problem with your view. System is fucked and 90% of the population is doing the right thing. Fucking mainstream ideology that it's either one or the other.

Pretend examples? I fucking lived it. I went to a CC after high school, didn't have a car and lived at home. What was my major? Engineering. What did I do my first semester? Get a certificate to be a machinist at a corporation while I finished school and hoped they would hire me. My university has the ability to add 'school' money to the student ID to pay for dining hall, books, shit at the book store etc. It's all a fucking scam. Kids are too dumb to understand nutrition so they eat out every meal or suffer on ramen. The university where I grew up (Univ at Buffalo) has partnered with local restaurants and stores to have this same 'student id' debit card thing. It's insane how uninformed and stupid people are in an era when everything is available.

The pell grant thing is entirely true and I'll paste my stupid ass financial aid thing here if you want, since I technically make 0$.

It's not as black and white as that and it's probably not quantifiable at this point. Blame is definitely shared by both sides. But denying that the education industry has not taken complete advantage of people to the point of fuckery is pretty hard to do. And yeah, kids aren't the smartest at 18-22 and are perfect targets. You going to blame the child or the problem itself?

And pell grants are not fucking available to everyone holy shit dude.

I should probably take a break of a post to explicitly state that were all of us to meet, I would still buy a round of beers. I really do pull for all of you guys. Even Mort.

Definitely, and likewise. I tend to say inflammatory things and I very rarely actually mean what I say. I often am frustrated by other things and use UM as an outlet to vent, which results at lashing out at people. I don't mean it usually! I'd even buy one for TB!

 

[Matt]

I think probably ~50% (at least) of people who go to college shouldn't.

Completely agree with this. The value of degrees in general are dropping due to the increases in college graduates coupled with there being fewer jobs in general.

However, the alternatives to college are few and far between in a lot of areas. Very few manufacturing or similar jobs available, so trade schools seem to be the way to go even though they aren't cheap either.

 

[King Richard]

Completely agree with this. The value of degrees in general are dropping due to the increases in college graduates coupled with there being fewer jobs in general.

However, the alternatives to college are few and far between in a lot of areas. Very few manufacturing or similar jobs available, so trade schools seem to be the way to go even though they aren't cheap either.

Pretty much. One of the reasons why Tesla was after me was due to the shortage of experienced managers in manufacturing. Finding people with legit credentials is becoming very hard in the states (most of the people I've worked with or knew in mfg that claimed to be really good were complete shit at their job, it was sad). Couple that with the fact that Tesla does nearly everything in-house, they're in dire need of top talent. I feel really fortunate to be given the opportunity to be honest. But I'm mostly happy because I get to smoke weed every day. lol. jk. but seriously.

 

[rms]

And pell grants are not fucking available to everyone holy shit dude.

I've said this like 10 times?

You going to blame the child or the problem itself?

Well i'm not a msnbc liberal, so I blame people for being stupid. Capitalism is a system of exploitation, people should expect it.

 

[rms]

"We need to treat violent video games the way we treat tobacco, alcohol, and pornography," Clinton said while promoting the Family Entertainment Protection Act, legislation that would have criminalized the sale of games rated "Mature" or "Adults Only" to minors. "If you put it just really simply, these violent video games are stealing the innocence of our children -- and it is certainly making the job of being a parent even more difficult," she said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...eo-games-and-the-rise-of-political-geek-cred/

Hillary hollaaaaa

 

[HamburgerBoy]

tbh didn't Trump say he wanted to regulate games more as well?

 

[rms]

Maybe? Not really sure I care though

 

[viewerfromnihil]

Personally, I'm against free college for all. One, I'm afraid it will make us more likely to adopt a track system, like what is found in most other developed nations. Secondly, I've seen the work of many regular undergraduates as a tutor and a fellow student extending a helpful hand, and, frankly, it's often atrocious work. Third, let's be honest: much of the money spent on it would be a big waste, hence why developed nations who have adopted it have also adopted a track system. Perhaps the standards and our country have been far too diluted--hell, Charles Ives, the first true American composer, was a D student at Yale and barely pulled graduating together, and that was in the late-nineteenth century. I can't imagine him being a D student today. We should, however, make community college free for two years, expand scholarship programs for high GPA students, and increase funding to public universities.

I'm biased in this, of course, because I followed that track (aside from that last point)--graduated high school with a 1.8 GPA; got my shit together the year after high school so that I could save up for a car to attend CC; graduated CC with a 3.67, thanks in large part to a rather motherly mentor I had there; transferred to the shittiest school I applied to because it was the only one that gave me a tuition scholarship; I'll gradate Summa--possibly top of my class--come May. Also, I worked 30-40 hours a week the entire time to pay for my living costs. There has been nothing fun about my undergraduate experience, except for where it has pointed my future and for the powerful experiences I've had with my professors. I'll graduate with like $10,000 of debt, which is nothing that I can complain about. Perhaps if I had had a cosigner for loan, my naive ass would have stuck my neck out for a hundred grand, but I wasn't able to so I didn't. Had I had more before, perhaps I would be worse off now. That is quite a quandary that our higher education system has created. I will say, however, that this quandary is not a usual case. My path was unlikely, crazy unlikely, and just because it is a nice little story, it shouldn't be said that the kid who did slightly less well than I (only slightly) shouldn't also have his or her shot without a life locked in debt afterward. I would have not been able to do any of this had our country been on a track system. I would have been condemned to the decisions made by a teenager frustrated by his fucked up childhood and (perceived) dismal future. That's why I'm against free college for all--because free college for all is never that. Give more opportunities to high achieving students (it has nothing to do with incentivizing, they would do it anyways and such would probably influence a further dilution of standards).