The News Thread

[Matt]

I'm not for free college either, but it definitely needs to be more affordable. And there needs to be more training programs with direct routes to jobs for people that aren't college material.

 

[viewerfromnihil]

No doubt. From what I hear from my professors, college was far more affordable in the 70s, before the Republicans started jumping on taxes as a platform to gain control. But that's anecdotal. As for job training programs, I totally agree, and that falls on CC funding. I totally support CCs. Hell, I don't know where I would be if CC weren't an option (I'm ineligible for the military because of a blood disorder that hasn't affected me since I was an infant and a childhood history of asthma that has been relegated to my childhood). Perhaps I could have led the joyful life of a heroin addict, instead, like the rest of my friends from high school.

 

[Matt]

The military isn't an option for a lot of people. Which is extremely important to remember.

 

[unknown]

I thought I'd throw in my two cents since I'm an instructor, have taught at both a CSU and CCs (where I currently am), and my students are actually discussing this very issue in our classes.

If our primary concern is student success, which it should be in whatever way we want to measure that (academic success, job placement after graduation, whatever), then the primary question is how do we make sure our students are successful? This doesn't mean passing every student. Students should get the grade they earn in the class. However, since higher education is now viewed as a product with an expected return on investment, anything less than a B is unacceptable. If you're an adjunct instructor, like me, giving a student an F is always done so with trepidation. My grades tend to fall nicely along a bell curve, though, and so far I've never had any complaints regarding my grading policies.

I don't think college should be free. I do, however, think it should be made more affordable. At all three community colleges I teach at, the average cost is about $50/unit. If you're taking a full load plus textbooks and fees and everything else, you're looking at anywhere from $800-$1200. When I started at CSULB back in 2005, $1200 was the rate for a full time student who wasn't living on campus. The local CC was $25 a unit. I was able to work and pay my way through college and graduate school and left with ZERO debt. That's impossible now. If we argue that the ticket to economic freedom is a college education, and the average student debt load is $30K, how do we square that?

The reason I believe college shouldn't be free is because there needs to be some incentive. Students need to have some sense of ownership in their academic career. Paying to be there is one example. Another example is grades. One of the classes I teach is three levels below college composition (we won't discuss placement and acceptance). The class is graded on a Pass/No Pass basis. They still receive grades on assignments throughout the semester, but basically as long as they get at least a 'C' they pass. If the students do really well, I actually have the power to skip students ahead a class. It's interesting seeing the dynamic play out. One semester, I had 28 students enrolled in the class. 14 showed up on a regular basis. 6 were skipped ahead. The other 8 went on to the next class. That class has an expected completion rate (as in finishing all the way through to Composition) of 20%.

I would rather my classroom be full of students who want to be there, then to be primarily occupied with more people who are just there because they have nothing better to do with their spare time. I want to teach people who want to be there. If they don't want to be there, they shouldn't be there.

But they're being told at younger ages "Where are you going to college?" (I've had several parents tell me their kids are being asked this in elementary schools). If our primary concern is student success, and if we can accept the notion that not everyone is cut out for college (cognitively, emotionally, financially, whatever), then, again, how do we make sure our students are successful? We had this discussion in class today and students had a number of solutions from counselors who actually gave a shit to providing high school students with more knowledge of what is actually out there. There is also the issue of quality of education and, at least in California, school quality is largely determined by property taxes. So if you live in a shitty area of LA, sorry. However, if you lived in one of the beach towns that are a part of LAUSD, congratulations. Trade and technical classes in high school are another big thing. I can proudly say that one of the CCs I teach at is one of only EIGHT in the entire country to offer a fully accredited Bachelor's program in Automotive Technology -- a full four year degree for under $10K. That'll be a big boost.

Access is the name of the game that's thrown around in academic circles. Don't even get me started on textbooks. Companies like Pearson can go fuck themselves. I ended up designing my own textbook through Norton for this semester. I was tired of my students paying $70 for a textbook that I really only had them use a third of. Instead I designed a custom textbook with readings I knew, liked, and weren't boring (for the most part...some still are...but it's good for them). Keep in mind, I receive no money from making this textbook. Each reading had a different cost attached to the length of it. In the end, my book's MSRP was $55.91

Each bookstore at both campuses charged $73-80 for it. It's the cost of doing business when college textbook stores are often run by third parties, separate from the college.




what the fuck were we talking about? I don't even know

 

[unknown]

In regards to the issue of student readiness/maturity, it's one of the primary reasons why I stopped teaching at CSULB. The student population there was primarily 17-22 year olds in my classes. Very few of them had life experiences or were able to verbally explain and defend a position. I MUCH prefer the student population at a community college. I have a broader age range with different life experiences and different goals. Most of them are there to get shit done. They have jobs, they're in the military, they're homeless, they're in abusive relationships, they've seen their dads get shot in front of them (the things you learn as an instructor/honorary counselor)...it's a completely different ball game, and I love it

 

[King Richard]

Personally, I'm against free college for all. One, I'm afraid it will make us more likely to adopt a track system, like what is found in most other developed nations. Secondly, I've seen the work of many regular undergraduates as a tutor and a fellow student extending a helpful hand, and, frankly, it's often atrocious work. Third, let's be honest: much of the money spent on it would be a big waste, hence why developed nations who have adopted it have also adopted a track system. Perhaps the standards and our country have been far too diluted--hell, Charles Ives, the first true American composer, was a D student at Yale and barely pulled graduating together, and that was in the late-nineteenth century. I can't imagine him being a D student today. We should, however, make community college free for two years, expand scholarship programs for high GPA students, and increase funding to public universities.

I'm biased in this, of course, because I followed that track (aside from that last point)--graduated high school with a 1.8 GPA; got my shit together the year after high school so that I could save up for a car to attend CC; graduated CC with a 3.67, thanks in large part to a rather motherly mentor I had there; transferred to the shittiest school I applied to because it was the only one that gave me a tuition scholarship; I'll gradate Summa--possibly top of my class--come May. Also, I worked 30-40 hours a week the entire time to pay for my living costs. There has been nothing fun about my undergraduate experience, except for where it has pointed my future and for the powerful experiences I've had with my professors. I'll graduate with like $10,000 of debt, which is nothing that I can complain about. Perhaps if I had had a cosigner for loan, my naive ass would have stuck my neck out for a hundred grand, but I wasn't able to so I didn't. Had I had more before, perhaps I would be worse off now. That is quite a quandary that our higher education system has created. I will say, however, that this quandary is not a usual case. My path was unlikely, crazy unlikely, and just because it is a nice little story, it shouldn't be said that the kid who did slightly less well than I (only slightly) shouldn't also have his or her shot without a life locked in debt afterward. I would have not been able to do any of this had our country been on a track system. I would have been condemned to the decisions made by a teenager frustrated by his fucked up childhood and (perceived) dismal future. That's why I'm against free college for all--because free college for all is never that. Give more opportunities to high achieving students (it has nothing to do with incentivizing, they would do it anyways and such would probably influence a further dilution of standards).

I thought I'd throw in my two cents since I'm an instructor, have taught at both a CSU and CCs (where I currently am), and my students are actually discussing this very issue in our classes.

If our primary concern is student success, which it should be in whatever way we want to measure that (academic success, job placement after graduation, whatever), then the primary question is how do we make sure our students are successful? This doesn't mean passing every student. Students should get the grade they earn in the class. However, since higher education is now viewed as a product with an expected return on investment, anything less than a B is unacceptable. If you're an adjunct instructor, like me, giving a student an F is always done so with trepidation. My grades tend to fall nicely along a bell curve, though, and so far I've never had any complaints regarding my grading policies.

I don't think college should be free. I do, however, think it should be made more affordable. At all three community colleges I teach at, the average cost is about $50/unit. If you're taking a full load plus textbooks and fees and everything else, you're looking at anywhere from $800-$1200. When I started at CSULB back in 2005, $1200 was the rate for a full time student who wasn't living on campus. The local CC was $25 a unit. I was able to work and pay my way through college and graduate school and left with ZERO debt. That's impossible now. If we argue that the ticket to economic freedom is a college education, and the average student debt load is $30K, how do we square that?

The reason I believe college shouldn't be free is because there needs to be some incentive. Students need to have some sense of ownership in their academic career. Paying to be there is one example. Another example is grades. One of the classes I teach is three levels below college composition (we won't discuss placement and acceptance). The class is graded on a Pass/No Pass basis. They still receive grades on assignments throughout the semester, but basically as long as they get at least a 'C' they pass. If the students do really well, I actually have the power to skip students ahead a class. It's interesting seeing the dynamic play out. One semester, I had 28 students enrolled in the class. 14 showed up on a regular basis. 6 were skipped ahead. The other 8 went on to the next class. That class has an expected completion rate (as in finishing all the way through to Composition) of 20%.

I would rather my classroom be full of students who want to be there, then to be primarily occupied with more people who are just there because they have nothing better to do with their spare time. I want to teach people who want to be there. If they don't want to be there, they shouldn't be there.

But they're being told at younger ages "Where are you going to college?" (I've had several parents tell me their kids are being asked this in elementary schools). If our primary concern is student success, and if we can accept the notion that not everyone is cut out for college (cognitively, emotionally, financially, whatever), then, again, how do we make sure our students are successful? We had this discussion in class today and students had a number of solutions from counselors who actually gave a shit to providing high school students with more knowledge of what is actually out there. There is also the issue of quality of education and, at least in California, school quality is largely determined by property taxes. So if you live in a shitty area of LA, sorry. However, if you lived in one of the beach towns that are a part of LAUSD, congratulations. Trade and technical classes in high school are another big thing. I can proudly say that one of the CCs I teach at is one of only EIGHT in the entire country to offer a fully accredited Bachelor's program in Automotive Technology -- a full four year degree for under $10K. That'll be a big boost.

Access is the name of the game that's thrown around in academic circles. Don't even get me started on textbooks. Companies like Pearson can go fuck themselves. I ended up designing my own textbook through Norton for this semester. I was tired of my students paying $70 for a textbook that I really only had them use a third of. Instead I designed a custom textbook with readings I knew, liked, and weren't boring (for the most part...some still are...but it's good for them). Keep in mind, I receive no money from making this textbook. Each reading had a different cost attached to the length of it. In the end, my book's MSRP was $55.91

Each bookstore at both campuses charged $73-80 for it. It's the cost of doing business when college textbook stores are often run by third parties, separate from the college.




what the fuck were we talking about? I don't even know

You guys basically echoed everything I said, with the exception of college being free. I don't have a problem with it because I feel like after all the years of taxes paid to the government and some of the dumb shit they've done to us I feel it's only right we actually get something back. Having said that, even if it isn't "free" the name of the game here that I think we all are in agreement with is AFFORDABILITY. Which, along with healthcare, is in fact not.

I feel like a lot of the issues we face nowadays can be fixed like healthcare and education but we have to adopt a different mentality. I know people with the opinion of Dak, or even more extreme people, generally claim that the gimmedat generations just need to suck it the fuck up and better their situations. And then there's people on the opposite side of the spectrum always screaming about how everything is fucked, we're all fucked, "ain't fair" blah blah blah, and honestly both sides are too cemented in their thinking to realize that they're both right and wrong. There need to be acknowledgements on both sides that yes we need to work hard to better ourselves but we shouldn't be fucked by the system just because of money. That's the issue at hand. And those issues, the real issues we face every day, aren't even being considered as problems from the Republicans, which is why I won't be supporting any of those cockbags. The Dems actually bring up issues that do affect millions of people on a daily basis and what to work on fixing that shit.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

yaaaaaaaaaaay community college!!!

 

[Dak]

Sure cost is a problem on both fronts. I've never said otherwise. But two things:

1. That doesn't mean people can't take mitigating steps
2. That doesn't mean throwing more money at the problem is going to fix it.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

 

[viewerfromnihil]

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

says America.

See you soon, three party system.

 

[Dak]

The US has multiple parties. The others just don't have any real ability to compete.

 

[rms]

Apparently Trump said "I love the poorly educated" this shit is too good.

“won with the poorly educated. I love the poorly educated! We’re the smartest people, we’re the most loyal people, and you know what I’m most happy about? I’ve been saying it for a long time. Forty-six percent were the Hispanics — 46 percent, number one with Hispanics. I’m really happy about that.”

 

[Dak]

People on this board and those around me in RL couldn't believe it when I said Trump would do very well with Republican Hispanics. Granted that's a lower number of the Hispanic population compared with the Democrat bloc, but it's a large contingent of Hispanics in a state like Texas, especially the further from the border you get. Even transplanted Hispanics maintain some of the "macho" cultural aspects, and Trump is the only macho guy in the entire contest.

 

[rms]

It's fascinating that he talks this shit, and has done it over a period of time to his base, and they still love him. I wonder if the hispanic population identify themselves as more American than previous nationality.

 

[Dak]

It's fascinating that he talks this shit, and has done it over a period of time to his base, and they still love him. I wonder if the hispanic population identify themselves as more American than previous nationality.

If someone is poorly educated, is acknowledgement and acceptance of them really talking shit?

I would say the Hispanic base that likes Trump would probably not be the Hispanics driving around with Hecho en Mexico stickers, regardless of their family's background with legal or illegal immigration.

 

[rms]

Poorly educated is a euphemism for stupid..

 

[rms]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-nix/an-open-letter-to-my-frie_2_b_9293694.html?section=women&

It's seriously insane to me how fast words have lost their meaning and just become buzz words for liberals. (In this case)

"Ariana Huffington is unattractive, both inside and out. I fully understand why her former husband left her for a man - he made a good decision."- Donald Trump. This is sexism, and just plain rude.

"You know, it really doesn't matter what the media write as long as you've got a young, and beautiful, piece of @!$%#." - Donald Trump. This is misogyny at its finest.

"I will build a great wall -- and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me -- and I'll build them very inexpensively. I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall. Mark my words." - Donald Trump. The words of an arrogant hate monger.

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending the best. They're not sending you, they're sending people that have lots of problems and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists... And some, I assume, are good people." -Donald Trump. Racist.

"It's freezing and snowing in New York - we need global warming!" - Donald Trump. Ignorant.

"I think the only difference between me and the other candidates is that I'm more honest and my women are beautiful." - Donald Trump. Sexist. As if women are possessions rather than people. And also a lie. A lie about how honest he is.

it's just too funny

 

[Dak]

Ignorant and stupid often overlap, but not necessarily.

There's really no shame in lacking natural aptitude, it's not within the individual's control. There should be shame in being poorly educated in this day and age, but thanks to progressivism people get absolved of any responsibility for their education.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The full context of that quote was something along the lines of him saying that he was winning all demographics (not true of course but this is Trump). It's not like he just said "Stupid people are my favorite voters, and primary supporters".

 

[CiG]

I like him precisely because of those quotes. He makes everyone cry and it's awesome.