The News Thread

[Dak]

It's easier to appear sharper when you're not worried about forming or responding to multidimensional ideas.

It's odd that the decline doesn't manifest in the debates, only in conversations. If the loss of mental acuity is real, why wouldn't it appear in the debates as well as in interviews?

At any rate, I disagree with your objection to Biden on a purely psychological basis. It appears you're upset about alleged emails too, although I'm not sure why or why you're so convinced they're genuine when Giuliani's passing shit on to a rag like the NY Post. Talk about fake news...

The debates are precisely when he's not forming or responding to multidimensional ideas. He's simply delivering carefully and repeatedly rehearsed talking points from his notes/Ipad. One should expect him to do better in that context than in a free flowing conversation. Also would point out that while Trump is traveling all over and fulfilling some minimal amount of duties of the president, Joe has been taking "lids" early in the morning for some time. Not a great indicator of health.

The FBI has the laptop and is meeting with the former business associate now so we'll see if anything comes of it. Not sure why you're ragging on the Post though. It's just the inverse of the Times. The NYT would have buried the lede, if not literally buried the emails. This Biden family business stuff, at this point, looks much less like fake news than the completely fabricated Steele dossier ever looked.

 

[Einherjar86]

The debates are precisely when he's not forming or responding to multidimensional ideas. He's simply delivering carefully and repeatedly rehearsed talking points from his notes/Ipad. One should expect him to do better in that context than in a free flowing conversation. Also would point out that while Trump is traveling all over and fulfilling some minimal amount of duties of the president, Joe has been taking "lids" early in the morning for some time. Not a great indicator of health.

If by “minimal amount of duties” you mean holding rallies and stoking the flames, sure.

I’ll take sleepy Joe over Trump, easy.

The FBI has the laptop and is meeting with the former business associate now so we'll see if anything comes of it. Not sure why you're ragging on the Post though. It's just the inverse of the Times. The NYT would have buried the lede, if not literally buried the emails. This Biden family business stuff, at this point, looks much less like fake news than the completely fabricated Steele dossier ever looked.

They didn’t bury the Clinton emails—which, according to the FBI, weren’t illegal. Since when do you care what the FBI says?

 

[crimsonfloyd]

It's easier to appear sharper when you're not worried about forming or responding to multidimensional ideas.

Not sure what you mean. Biden and Trump are running the two least substantial presidential campaigns I've ever seen, so neither is showing much nuance in their thinking at the moment.

It's odd that the decline doesn't manifest in the debates, only in conversations. If the loss of mental acuity is real, why wouldn't it appear in the debates as well as in interviews?

Uh... it's DEFINITELY shown up in the debates during the primary. Do you not remember the record player moment? Or when Castro called him out for forgetting on stage? My sense is that Biden stays sharper in one-on-one debates because his mind remains active throughout, where as his mind kind of wondered in the primary debates when there were 10 people on the stage. Biden's best debates were the Bernie-Biden one-on-one debate and the second Trump debate. I'm not holding the first Trump debate against him, because I don't see how anyone could think straight during that shit show.

At any rate, I disagree with your objection to Biden on a purely psychological basis. It appears you're upset about alleged emails too, although I'm not sure why or why you're so convinced they're genuine when Giuliani's passing shit on to a rag like the NY Post. Talk about fake news...

I think it's fair to be skeptical of Giuliani, since he's a basket case. However, if they were doctored, I would imagine Hunter Biden or the Biden team would come out and say the emails are doctored or fake. They haven't, which implies they are real.

 

[Dak]

https://twitter.com/TrumpWarRoom/status/1320117045762064385?s=20

 

[Dak]

If by “minimal amount of duties” you mean holding rallies and stoking the flames, sure.

I’ll take sleepy Joe over Trump, easy.

More work than taking a lid at 9am.

They didn’t bury the Clinton emails—which, according to the FBI, weren’t illegal. Since when do you care what the FBI says?

Not prosecuting =/= illegal.The FBI is generally fucked up but we'll see how things go.

 

[Einherjar86]

Uh... it's DEFINITELY shown up in the debates during the primary. Do you not remember the record player moment? Or when Castro called him out for forgetting on stage? My sense is that Biden stays sharper in one-on-one debates because his mind remains active throughout, where as his mind kind of wondered in the primary debates when there were 10 people on the stage. Biden's best debates were the Bernie-Biden one-on-one debate and the second Trump debate. I'm not holding the first Trump debate against him, because I don't see how anyone could think straight during that shit show.

That’s not necessarily evidence of mental decline. It could be a sign of boredom.

I don’t think Biden’s sharp at his age. I just think the relentless badgering of his mental acuity is pointless when compared to Trump’s mental state combined with his willful conspiracy mongering and misinformation. Biden is on the right side of most political issues. The challenge will be actually holding him to those positions.

I think it's fair to be skeptical of Giuliani, since he's a basket case. However, if they were doctored, I would imagine Hunter Biden or the Biden team would come out and say the emails are doctored or fake. They haven't, which implies they are real.

Or they think it isn’t worth responding to...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...gainst-biden-dont-need-make-any-sense/616824/

Not prosecuting =/= illegal.The FBI is generally fucked up but we'll see how things go.

It’s good to know you’ll support the FBI when they confirm your biases.

 

[CiG]

I think Biden won the second debate, as much as I do agree with people who are pointing out his mental decline I never thought Kamala would be the weak link on the Biden/Kamala ticket. Her performance against Pence was pretty bad, and now combined with this boycott she's looking pretty bad as his VP choice in general.

 

[CiG]

http://twitter.com/DarshunKendrick/status/1319459569073008641

 

[crimsonfloyd]

That’s not necessarily evidence of mental decline. It could be a sign of boredom.

If it were a few moments in the debates, that would be the simplest explanation, but it's not. He has A LOT of senior moments.

I don’t think Biden’s sharp at his age. I just think the relentless badgering of his mental acuity is pointless when compared to Trump’s mental state combined with his willful conspiracy mongering and misinformation. Biden is on the right side of most political issues. The challenge will be actually holding him to those positions.

Hold him to his positions? He'll govern as neoliberal corpratist and will do very little for the average American. He'll do what's best for big pharama, the health insurance industry, Wall Street, the military industrial complex, and the oil industry. He'll throw a bone to the peasants every once in a while (I think will actually do the $15 minimum wage because it's so obvious) but for the most part will tinker around the edges while maintaining the status quo. He'll use the 6-3 right wing Supreme Court as an excuse to do very little even if the Dems win the house and the senate.

Lefties who think he's gonna be the second coming of FDR are just as delusional as the right wingers who think he's a trojan horse for socialism.

Or they think it isn’t worth responding to...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...gainst-biden-dont-need-make-any-sense/616824/

Did I miss it, or did nothing in that article imply the emails were actually fake?

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Speaking of senior moments, the right wingers are gonna have a field day with this

https://twitter.com/Tim_Canova/status/1320219722605076480?s=20

 

[CiG]

Speaking of senior moments, the right wingers are gonna have a field day with this

https://twitter.com/Tim_Canova/status/1320219722605076480?s=20

He's an absolute gaffe machine smh.

 

[Einherjar86]

If it were a few moments in the debates, that would be the simplest explanation, but it's not. He has A LOT of senior moments.

I suppose the thing to do would be to catalogue every example and see how they compare and qualify.

Hold him to his positions? He'll govern as neoliberal corpratist and will do very little for the average American. He'll do what's best for big pharama, the health insurance industry, Wall Street, the military industrial complex, and the oil industry. He'll throw a bone to the peasants every once in a while (I think will actually do the $15 minimum wage because it's so obvious) but for the most part will tinker around the edges while maintaining the status quo. He'll use the 6-3 right wing Supreme Court as an excuse to do very little even if the Dems win the house and the senate.

Lefties who think he's gonna be the second coming of FDR are just as delusional as the right wingers who think he's a trojan horse for socialism.

This kind of faithlessness in our institutions is demoralizing.

If elected and then left to his own devices, yes he would govern as a corporatist. Even under pressure, he’ll still try. But he’s the best hope for forcing some kind of motion on actual policy. Trump doesn’t listen to reason or to anyone else, and his positions on issues like climate change are hopeless. Biden has acknowledged climate as an issue and pledged to allow no fossil fuel reps into his cabinet. We need to hold him to those kinds of pledges and remove the financial incentives for him to maintain the status quo.

I don’t see Biden as some kind of savior, but he’s a chess piece that might be easier to move.

Did I miss it, or did nothing in that article imply the emails were actually fake?

You may be right—but it more than implies that they have virtually no relevance to Joe Biden or his presidential campaign. I see this as yet again the right-wing media making mountains out of molehills.

 

[Dak]

Biden is on the right side of most political issues.

Supporting the 1994 Crime Bill and trapping students in debt?

It’s good to know you’ll support the FBI when they confirm your biases.

I think you mean "believe". I don't "support" them

It's funny how Trump was/is still a "Russian asset" based on no evidence, but with actual evidence on Biden's financials being compromised to some degree by China, it's a "molehill". Not that that position is uniquely yours, it's all over the media.

Clearly @crimsonfloyd and I are not and have not been very closely aligned on any political topics, but both are able to see Biden is having cognitive issues. I don't see how this is some sort of "right wing smear campaign". Biden is struggling to form words and to chain words together. He has a VP candidate that's possibly more loathable and cringe than Hillary. Bunting Biden to the top of the ticket may turn out to be the dumbest move in the history of DNC politics since they bunted Hillary to the top.

 

[Einherjar86]

Supporting the 1994 Crime Bill and trapping students in debt?

I did say most.

We have shit options and that means the work of activism and political pressure doesn't end if and when Biden gets elected. Between the two candidates, Biden is more amenable to discursive power. Trump is an unacceptable candidate because he refuses to participate in the process and holds dangerous positions on major issues.

I think you mean "believe". I don't "support" them

To-may-to, to-mah-to.

It's funny how Trump was/is still a "Russian asset" based on no evidence

I'm not sure what you mean by "asset." I think most people would agree that he isn't/wasn't a Russian agent; but I think it's fairly clear that Russia perceived a weakness in our media infrastructure and exploited it, and that Trump invited them to do so (I mean, he did that on air).

Clearly @crimsonfloyd and I are not and have not been very closely aligned on any political topics, but both are able to see Biden is having cognitive issues. I don't see how this is some sort of "right wing smear campaign".

To be fair, I said the emails were the smear campaign. But honestly...

Biden is struggling to form words and to chain words together. He has a VP candidate that's possibly more loathable and cringe than Hillary.

All distractions from the more serious issues. Also, "loathable" and "cringe" are pure rhetoric designed to invite agreement and sever conversation. This is the definition of a smear campaign; it's real, and you're participating in it.

I don't think we're actually in severe disagreement over Biden's mental acuity or whether his family has engaged in questionable politics/business deals, what have you. But none of this is convincing to me that he's worse than Trump, who is also in mental decline, whose team has used private email servers, and who has also engaged in illicit business/political dealings.

On top of that, he refuses to budge or even negotiate on serious political issues. He's unelectable.

Bunting Biden to the top of the ticket may turn out to be the dumbest move in the history of DNC politics since they bunted Hillary to the top.

It very well may be--but he's still the better choice.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

This kind of faithlessness in our institutions is demoralizing.

If elected and then left to his own devices, yes he would govern as a corporatist. Even under pressure, he’ll still try. But he’s the best hope for forcing some kind of motion on actual policy. Trump doesn’t listen to reason or to anyone else, and his positions on issues like climate change are hopeless. Biden has acknowledged climate as an issue and pledged to allow no fossil fuel reps into his cabinet. We need to hold him to those kinds of pledges and remove the financial incentives for him to maintain the status quo.

I keep hearing lefties say they'll pressure Biden AFTER he wins and I genuinely have no idea how they plan to do that. They're voting for him no matter what and I'm sure the Republicans will have a new boogie man in 2024, so they'll vote for Biden (or Harris) again in 2024 without condition. Why should he change his policies for people who are gonna vote for him anyway, especially when he has financial incentives to do the opposite? That's not how politics work.

What leverage do you have to pressure him with? There's literally been the largest protest movement of our lifetime against the criminal justice system and Biden's response is MORE POLICE FUNDING. He doesn't give a shit about protests, he doesn't give a shit about activists, and he doesn't give a shit about the few progressives in congress. Until progressives get the guts and organization to threaten to withhold their votes en mass, or develop a viable third party, they will remain the least powerful major voting block in America.

You may be right—but it more than implies that they have virtually no relevance to Joe Biden or his presidential campaign. I see this as yet again the right-wing media making mountains out of molehills.

It shows Biden is fine with corruption and using his political power for he and his family's benefit. But I mean he's running against Trump, so this is a pot vs. kettle situation. And in that sense, I agree it really isn't relevant to the election, and no one is changing their vote because of Hunter Biden's emails.

I did say most.

Biden is TERRIBLE on most issues:
He supports maintaining the predatory health insurance industry where people die in debt for the crime of getting sick
He supports continuing endless wars and expanding American interventionism
He does not support regulating Wall Street
He helped credit card companies rip off consumers
He supports terrible trade deals like NAFTA and TPP
He has tried to cut Social Security over, and over, and over again (he SAYS he's changed on this but I don't believe him)
He wrote the Patriot Act, so obviously he doesn't give a shit about the 4th Amendment

Look, if you think he's the lesser evil, and it's a matter of minimizing harm, I get it. But let's not kid ourselves and about who he is or what he's about.

 

[Einherjar86]

I keep hearing lefties say they'll pressure Biden AFTER he wins and I genuinely have no idea how they plan to do that. They're voting for him no matter what and I'm sure the Republicans will have a new boogie man in 2024, so they'll vote for Biden (or Harris) again in 2024 without condition. Why should he change his policies for people who are gonna vote for him anyway, especially when he has financial incentives to do the opposite? That's not how politics work.

What leverage do you have to pressure him with? There's literally been the largest protest movement of our lifetime against the criminal justice system and Biden's response is MORE POLICE FUNDING. He doesn't give a shit about protests, he doesn't give a shit about activists, and he doesn't give a shit about the few progressives in congress. Until progressives get the guts and organization to threaten to withhold their votes en mass, or develop a viable third party, they will remain the least powerful major voting block in America.

We have representatives in Congress. We have local politicians. If Biden wins the presidency and we still have a republican-controlled senate and a house with the likes of AOC, I guarantee he’ll face a LOT of pressure. The first step is to not let up. We need to be even more vocal than we already are, continue to flood our representatives’ offices with calls and emails, and march outside the White House.

Look, if you think he's the lesser evil, and it's a matter of minimizing harm, I get it. But let's not kid ourselves and about who he is or what he's about.

I acknowledged in my last post that we have shit options. I don’t perceive the upshot of continually dismembering Biden’s reputation when it feeds the desires of those who are looking for reasons not to vote, or to vote for Trump. We need to vote Biden into office, THEN eviscerate him—and not let up until he caves on what we want.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

We have representatives in Congress. We have local politicians. If Biden wins the presidency and we still have a republican-controlled senate and a house with the likes of AOC, I guarantee he’ll face a LOT of pressure. The first step is to not let up. We need to be even more vocal than we already are, continue to flood our representatives’ offices with calls and emails, and march outside the White House.

I think the only plausible strategy is primaries. Congress members ignore emails and calls unless they come with a (political) threat. Unfortunately, a lot of people reflexively vote for incumbents and most institutional powers (congress members, unions, organizations) don't have the guts to endorse challengers.

I acknowledged in my last post that we have shit options. I don’t perceive the upshot of continually dismembering Biden’s reputation when it feeds the desires of those who are looking for reasons not to vote, or to vote for Trump. We need to vote Biden into office, THEN eviscerate him—and not let up until he caves on what we want.

Fair enough. We just have strategic differences in how to bring about change. I don't think he will consider us when we get in power. I think it's better to vote 3rd party or leave the top of the ticket blank, especially if you're in a safe state. Nothing good comes from inflating Biden's popular vote score. They'll just use that as an "electability" argument to push more corporate neoliberals in the future.

What's your plan for the people who will defend Biden simply because he has a D next to his name, or will say "we can't criticize him. You're helping the Republicans in the midterms!" or the people who are paying attention now because Trump's personality triggers them, but will stop paying attention to politics when Sleepy Joe gets into power?

 

[Einherjar86]

I think the only plausible strategy is primaries. Congress members ignore emails and calls unless they come with a (political) threat. Unfortunately, a lot of people reflexively vote for incumbents and most institutional powers (congress members, unions, organizations) don't have the guts to endorse challengers.

Discursive action works, it's just a herculean challenge. Biden has already said he won't let representatives from the fossil fuel industry onto his team. That's a step in the right direction, and one that will yield material results. I think he can be pressured into more.

Fair enough. We just have strategic differences in how to bring about change. I don't think he will consider us when we get in power. I think it's better to vote 3rd party or leave the top of the ticket blank, especially if you're in a safe state. Nothing good comes from inflating Biden's popular vote score. They'll just use that as an "electability" argument to push more corporate neoliberals in the future.

Because people have short memories. Anyone who says Biden's popular vote is evidence of his electability needs to be reminded of historical context: he was only electable compared to his opponent.

What's your plan for the people who will defend Biden simply because he has a D next to his name, or will say "we can't criticize him. You're helping the Republicans in the midterms!" or the people who are paying attention now because Trump's personality triggers them, but will stop paying attention to politics when Sleepy Joe gets into power?

To tell them they're being politically immature.

I was politically immature throughout the Obama presidency and made excuses for him on issues that I was uninformed about and won't stand for now. I consider this a moment to learn from that. I have no great expectations for a Biden presidency, and plans to criticize him on most things. And if he isn't moving on issues that concern me, I'll call and email my representatives about it.

 

[Dak]

The president doesn't even have direct control over basically any of the things listed on this page. The president has significant control though over foreign policy and no one has done a better job than Trump since maybe JFK on FP, primarily by doing the exact opposite of what one might expect given his ego/rhetoric: Not starting new conflicts and signing off on an actual China pivot, not the fake pivot Obama talked but never walked. I will continue to abstain from voting because of other beliefs, but if I were a voter, the primary difference that actually matters between a Biden administration and a Trump administration is their position on China, NATO, and military use in general. A Biden/Harris administration would be indistinguishable on FP from Bush/Cheney or Obama/Biden.

Edit: Not sure how my calling someone "cringe" or "loathable" is part of a "smear campaign". It's an independent observation and judgment, which I don't use to try to influence other voters.

 

[Einherjar86]

The president doesn't even have direct control over basically any of the things listed on this page.

What have I said that the president doesn't have control over? I feel like the only thing I've specified has been climate change (although I could be wrong, it's been a long day), and the president actually has a fair amount of sway on that issue.

The president has significant control though over foreign policy and no one has done a better job than Trump since maybe JFK on FP, primarily by doing the exact opposite of what one might expect given his ego/rhetoric: Not starting new conflicts and signing off on an actual China pivot, not the fake pivot Obama talked but never walked. I will continue to abstain from voting because of other beliefs, but if I were a voter, the primary difference that actually matters between a Biden administration and a Trump administration is their position on China, NATO, and military use in general. A Biden/Harris administration would be indistinguishable on FP from Bush/Cheney or Obama/Biden.

They might be indistinguishable if no one challenges them on it. Obama got away with a lot because very few people raised their voices (myself included).

EDIT: in other news...

I feel like dimensia would be kinda awesome...