The News Thread

[CiG]

Dude I'm going to have to report Mort, that Pepsi Man comment totally ass-raped my browser.

According to whom? Googling "ottoman state" yields mostly just results about the Ottoman Empire. Your turn to provide evidence to back your claim.

The history of The Ottoman Empire begins with a dynasty of raiders, then a solidified state and from there constant expansion and invasion which built up into an empire.

Give this a quick browse and you'll see what I mean in differentiating the state from the empire.

http://www.britannica.com/place/Ottoman-Empire

 

[Talos of Atmora]

It's the Mortpocalypse, everyone.

 

[Mort Divine]

PEPSI
PEPSI
PEPSI MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN
PEPSI PESPI PEPSI MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Get your facts straight you inbred spermcatcher. One of the reasons they started disliking us so much was because they DIDNT win WW1 and accused Armenians of conspiring with the Russians against them(and some did). Did you miss the part where i educated you earlier about them referring to Western Armenia as the "Loyal Milet" of the ottoman empire?

If it wasn't for Russia and the people of Eastern Armenia(which had been a part of the Russian empire since the early 1800's), there would be no Armenia today. Britain, lmfao.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The history of The Ottoman Empire begins with a dynasty of raiders, then a solidified state and from there constant expansion and invasion which built up into an empire.

Give this a quick browse and you'll see what I mean in differentiating the state from the empire.

http://www.britannica.com/place/Ottoman-Empire

At what point did that expansion cease being country-expansion and begin as empire-expansion? Who isn't to say that at the moment "Ottoman dominion spread out from a small northwestern Anatolian principality", they became an empire? According to your own link, Murad I was considered an emperor despite controlling only land that covered less than half of modern-day Turkey, in addition to parts of modern-day Serbia and Bulgaria.

 

[CiG]

At what point did that expansion cease being country-expansion and begin as empire-expansion? Who isn't to say that at the moment "Ottoman dominion spread out from a small northwestern Anatolian principality", they became an empire? According to your own link, Murad I was considered an emperor despite controlling only land that covered less than half of modern-day Turkey, in addition to parts of modern-day Serbia and Bulgaria.

That's a good question, I have no idea.

Besides playing a game of stringing together definitions that are considered synonymous, can you show me anything authoritative by say, a historian, that calls The Ottoman Empire a country?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

That's a good question, I have no idea.

Besides playing a game of stringing together definitions that are considered synonymous, can you show me anything authoritative by say, a historian, that calls The Ottoman Empire a country?

You're such a dishonest cunt and play by your own rules neither in what you say nor what you expect of others. The Ottoman Empire is defined as a country by the definition you provided and by the widely-accepted definitions of what a country is. Can you find an authoritative source that describes Black Cauldron Ram as a rock band? Probably not, but it doesn't change the patently obvious truth that they are one. Rather than follow up on your original claim of a distinction between the "Ottoman State" and "Ottoman Empire" and provide evidence in support of it as I have my own, you change the subject multiple times. You're an absolute subhuman.

 

[CiG]

Listen you triggered twat.

We both agree that an empire is a state or country which rules over other states and/or countries, where we differ is that the country that exists at the helm of the empire is called The Ottoman Empire.

That is not the name of the ruling country, that is the name of the fucking empire.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Discogs isn't really an authoritative source on musical genres, that is a tag automatically applied due to the hierarchy of genres as defined on their website, but lol'd nonetheless.

That's not the disagreement at all you lying cunt.

You're saying the Ottoman Empire wasn't a country?

A country?

No, it was an empire.

You tried climbing the peak of Mt. Stupid, "Look Ma, I know that countries and empires are different things!", and then took it to mean that they were mutually exclusive, like a fucktard.

I have never argued that there was not a central part of the Ottoman Empire which "exist[ed] at the helm of the empire". That is obvious. Turkdodger claimed that Israel occupied "an already well established country". I asked for the name of that country, being that the region had been controlled by the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years prior to British annexation. He laughed at the notion of the Ottoman Empire being a country. At the same time, he apparently believes that there was a well established country there. Do you not see the contradiction?

 

[CiG]

I really don't care about the subject you and Tech were debating. The Ottoman Empire is not the name of any country.

That's not the disagreement at all you lying cunt.

My disagreement with you is that you're trying to say that The Ottoman Empire is the name of the country that rules over The Ottoman Empire, which absolutely makes no sense.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

He laughed at the notion of the Ottoman Empire being a country. At the same time, he apparently believes that there was a well established country there. Do you not see the contradiction?

So there were no countries in empires? Again, you cant possibly be this stupid, can you? That's why you didnt have any response to any of the examples i brought up outside of "herpderpgenociiiiide"?

No all those countries werent countries, they were just pieces of lands that were a part of THE COUNTRY OF OTTOMAN. lmfao.

cockburgerboy is rewriting history with his autism.

 

[CiG]

I legitimately have a headache.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

I really don't care about the subject you and Tech were debating. The Ottoman Empire is not the name of any country.



My disagreement with you is that you're trying to say that The Ottoman Empire is the name of the country that rules over The Ottoman Empire, which absolutely makes no sense.

an empire is NOT a country

"A country is a sovereign political being. It has it's own government, generally has it's own army, it's own citizens and is independent of other nation's direct influence. England for instance, is a country.


A kingdom is essentially a country or group of countries ruled over by a monarch, historically most often a king, but there have been many ruled by a Queen. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is a Kingdom.


An Empire is a collection of countries/regions/areas/provinces/places/people/things/nouns that are ruled over by a conquering group. Generally the conquering group rules over the territories, provides and army, and tries to get along with the natives. The British Empire, was an empire.


So here we have the differences.


The British EMPIRE was a collection of colonies and territories ranging across the globe who all ultimately deferred back to the Government in Britain, but were relatively self-sufficient until it collapsed.


The United KINGDOM is a group of countries that are ruled over by a monarch.


England is a COUNTRY that has it's own government, it's own army, and is free of direct influence from other country's governments."

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I really don't care about the subject you and Tech were debating. The Ottoman Empire is not the name of any country.

My disagreement with you is that you're trying to say that The Ottoman Empire is the name of the country that rules over The Ottoman Empire, which absolutely makes no sense.

The Ottoman Empire is the name of a country that rules over other countries, which are a part of the Ottoman Empire.

So there were no countries in empires? Again, you cant possibly be this stupid, can you? That's why you didnt have any response to any of the examples i brought up outside of "herpderpgenociiiiide"?

No all those countries werent countries, they were just pieces of lands that were a part of THE COUNTRY OF OTTOMAN. lmfao.

cockburgerboy is rewriting history with his autism.

The autonomy and subjugation of countries taken over by empires varies from case to case. In the case of the Ottoman Empire and Palestine, the former clearly held control over the latter. Please, name the "well established country" that you believe ruled during the time of Ottoman control.

an empire is NOT a country

"A country is a sovereign political being. It has it's own government, generally has it's own army, it's own citizens and is independent of other nation's direct influence. England for instance, is a country.


A kingdom is essentially a country or group of countries ruled over by a monarch, historically most often a king, but there have been many ruled by a Queen. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is a Kingdom.


An Empire is a collection of countries/regions/areas/provinces/places/people/things/nouns that are ruled over by a conquering group. Generally the conquering group rules over the territories, provides and army, and tries to get along with the natives. The British Empire, was an empire.


So here we have the differences.


The British EMPIRE was a collection of colonies and territories ranging across the globe who all ultimately deferred back to the Government in Britain, but were relatively self-sufficient until it collapsed.


The United KINGDOM is a group of countries that are ruled over by a monarch.


England is a COUNTRY that has it's own government, it's own army, and is free of direct influence from other country's governments."

Wow nice source, some Armenian that made a post on Reddit 3 years ago.

I hope you realize that your definitions do not preclude the Ottoman Empire from being a country. There is nothing in that definition of empire which prevents an empire from being a country. However, let's assume the author definitely meant it to the exclusion of other governmental designations. Then it lacks any objective basis for defining when something is a country or an empire. The United Kingdom is considered a country; despite this, it still possesses ownership of multiple other former states, namely Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. According to you, this should be impossible since a country cannot own other countries.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Oh, and since Reddit means so much to you, this guy in the same thread provided a different definition, and he even got up-voted one more time than your boy! An expert, clearly!

A country is any sovereign political entity. Typical factors for being a country are being independent of foreign nations, having a standing army, and having a government, but the Vatican, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Somalia all push the boundaries of that definition.

A kingdom is a country ruled by a king. The name doesn't have any meaning, really, it's just what the people there decide to call themselves.

An empire is a country in which one nation, ethnicity, language community, historical country, etc expands to and rules over others using military force. Britain, Russia, Germany, Portugal, France, Macedonia, Persia, the Ottomans, the Mali, the Songhai, the Egyptians, the Zulu, the Swahili, the Babylonians, the Mongols, the Chinese, the Japanese, and the Americans have all at some point in history ruled over an empire. Most of them don't last very long, and they're generally not relevant in today's world stage: our present ideas about human rights for the most part preclude imperialism.

https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlik...i5the_difference_between_an_empire_a_kingdom/

 

[CiG]

I think Tech made a good point earlier that I didn't see you address.

If an empire is synonymous with a country, is it possible for a country to exist within another country?

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Oh, and since Reddit means so much to you, this guy in the same thread provided a different definition, and he even got up-voted one more time than your boy! An expert, clearly!

https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlik...i5the_difference_between_an_empire_a_kingdom/

but clearly that guy doesnt know what the fuck hes talking about as displayed in the first sentence of his post, that's why i didnt post his "definition".... "expands to rule over others using military force". Lmao, right off the bat. Do you know how many empires expanded and ruled over COUNTRIES without using military force? a shit load.

The Ottoman Empire is the name of a country that rules over other countries, which are a part of the Ottoman Empire.

Please, name the "well established country" that you believe ruled during the time of Ottoman control.

Greece, for one, you fucking idiot. Also, Armenia was a well established country run by its own government during the ottoman empire, how many times do i have to drill that into your dense skull? There are plenty more, maybe your whore mother should have dropped you off at school instead of trying to educate you while you still hung off he saggy nipples at the ripe age of 12.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I think Tech made a good point earlier that I didn't see you address.

If an empire is synonymous with a country, is it possible for a country to exist within another country?

I never said it is synonymous. Again you fail at logic. All empires are countries. Not all countries are empires. All squares are rectangles. Not all rectangles are squares. For a person laughing at my education you clearly have never taken a basic elementary school-level logic class.

It is possible for a country (a subjugated one) to exist within another country, obviously. The definition of an empire is a country within which other countries/ethnic groups/tribes/etc exist.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Wow nice source, some Armenian that made a post on Reddit 3 years ago.

Oh shit, he was Armenian?

Can you guess what this cocksucking faggot is?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

but clearly that guy doesnt know what the fuck hes talking about as displayed in the first sentence of his post, that's why i didnt post his "definition".... "expands to rule over others using military force". Lmao, right off the bat. Do you know how many empires expanded and ruled over COUNTRIES without using military force? a shit load.

Greece, for one, you fucking idiot. Also, Armenia was a well established country run by its own government during the ottoman empire, how many times do i have to drill that into your dense skull? There are plenty more, maybe your whore mother should have dropped you off at school instead of trying to educate you while you still hung off he saggy nipples at the ripe age of 12.

Name these empires that expanded without military force. I'm sure there are a couple weird exceptions as there are with everything, but it's broadly true at least in most cases.

Greece ruled Palestine? Wow, thanks for the information, I had no idea. Oh wait, you're forgetting the subject again? Fair enough, let's talking about Greece. How, exactly, did the Greeks rule Greece during Ottoman subjugation?

The Sultan sat at the apex of the government of the Ottoman Empire. Although he had the trappings of an absolute ruler, he was actually bound by tradition and convention.[11] These restrictions imposed by tradition were mainly of a religious nature. Indeed, the Qur'an was the main restriction on absolute rule by the sultan and in this way, the Qur'an served as a "constitution."[11]

Ottoman rule of the provinces was characterized by two main functions. The local administrators within the provinces were to maintain a military establishment and to collect taxes.[12] The military establishment was feudal in character.[12] The Sultan's cavalry were allotted land, either large allotments or small allotments based on the rank of the individual cavalryman. All non-Muslims were forbidden to ride a horse which made traveling more difficult.[12] The Ottomans divided Greece into six sanjaks, each ruled by a Sanjakbey accountable to the Sultan, who established his capital in Constantinople in 1453.

The conquered land was parceled out to Ottoman soldiers, who held it as feudal fiefs (timars and ziamets) directly under the Sultan's authority. This land could not be sold or inherited, but reverted to the Sultan's possession when the fief-holder (timariot) died.[12] During their life-times they served as cavalrymen in the Sultan's army, living well on the proceeds of their estates with the land being tilled largely by peasants.[12] Many Ottoman timariots were descended from the pre-Ottoman Christian nobility, and shifted their allegiance to the Ottomans following the conquest of the Balkans. Conversion to Islam was not a requirement, and as late as the fifteenth century many timariots were known to be Christian, although their numbers gradually decreased over time.[13]

The Ottomans basically installed this feudal system right over the top of the existing system of peasant tenure. The peasantry remained in possession of their own land and their tenure over their plot of land remained hereditary and inalienable.[12] Nor was any military service ever imposed on the peasant by the Ottoman government. All non-Muslims were in theory forbidden from carrying arms, but this was ignored. Indeed, in regions such as Crete, almost every man carried arms.

Greek Christian families were, however, subject to a system of conscription known as the devshirme. The Ottomans required that male children from Christian peasant villages be conscripted and enrolled in the corps of Janissaries for military training in the Sultan's army.[12] Such recruitment was sporadic, and the proportion of children conscripted varied from region to region. The practice largely came to an end by the middle of the seventeenth century.

Under the Ottoman system of government, Greek society was at the same time fostered and restricted. With one hand the Turkish regime gave privileges and freedom to its subject people; with the other it imposed a tyranny deriving from the malpractices of its administrative personnel over which it exercised only remote and incomplete control. In fact the “rayahs” were downtrodden and exposed to the vagaries of Turkish administration and sometimes to the Greek landlords. The term rayah came to denote an underprivileged, tax-ridden and socially inferior population.[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece

Yeah, "ruling", right.