the pro tools back lash

Andy Sneap

Metal Guru
Apr 17, 2002
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I had to type something. I keep reading misguided statements about how certain bands wish to record raw, live, no triggers as tho this is a novel concept.

The main reason for having to go the pro tools route these days is lack of rehearsal and song writing not being complete. I can't remember the last time a band came to me with all 4 or 5 band members fully rehearsed, knowing exactly what they should be playing and all fully capable of playing their parts to a professional standard.

The labels maybe partly to blame for this also. The usual scenario is they want 12 songs (4 more than the glory days) all recorded and mixed in less time than we used to get for 8 songs. This also waters down the creative input from the band and you can guarantee there's some scrabbling for lyrics for the obligatory japanese bonus track. The band are usually given 2 months or so to get this all written.

There was a different level of quality in the 80's where you'd go into the studio knowing your parts, practice was the only option and it paid off.

Why am I ranting? Well I see certain bands pointing the finger at me and fellow producers when I know damn well what I put into their albums and how it would have sounded without months of input and hard work from myself. Had said bands come to me with more than 6 songs written lyrically and only half the band knowing the songs we could have taken a different approach.

Basically if you want the old school approach, put the effort in we ALL used to.
I would love nothing more than a band to be able to come into the studio and throw it down live, fully rehearsed, I'm waiting....
 
Im actually quite suprised at the lack of preparation of todays bands as you said. I always thought they rehearsed their parts constantly before going into the studio with you or anybody else. Dang :|

certain bands wish to record raw, live, no triggers as tho this is a novel concept.

Trivium
 
yep - i thought that bands of that kinda level should came to the studio and play everything) interesting)
 
Apperently, that's what Kreator did with their last album... Or at least that's what we are told....But they have been in the business for for long enough to know what you're saying, so... I don't know...
I'd love to have Colin's input on the mix by the way.
The last The Haunted was recorded live too. But that's definitely their weakest album imho.
At least you get to record bands that can play to a click.:heh:
 
well, at least i feel a little better knowing that guys like sneap are forced into dealing with the same amateur bullshit that the rest of us have to...
 
Cant agree more,

I was actually quiet appalled when I was watching the Trivium (latest album) studio video and as they are recording in Nashville they wanted to record an organic album with no triggers and BD blah blah blah.

They actually were saying how they did not like the sound of previous albums (hinting at Andy's work), I was just sitting their thinking; if Andy's, Jason and Colins hard work had not been done in the earlier days, that band would have nothing.

The bands dont really get the idea that the triggers, BD and re-amping are their for a reason, its to get the best possible sound for the band.

Don’t bite the hand that feeds, eh.
 
This is a common problem, in the classical world the biggest names don't care to play the full cadenzas (solo pieces in the middle of a concerto) anymore, they expect the engineer to edit 50+ fragments together. Orchestras used to have rehearsaltime before the recording took place, now the rehearsal is the actual session, so that's over 200 edits too. Can be done ofcourse, but were's the music in that?

Talk to the A&R's, let the bands have a PTLE rig in their rehearsalroom so they can do the composing and arranging in their own time?
 
Wow. I'm a bit shocked to hear that. I assumed that for the most part, bands were prepared and rehearsed and on a professional level when they came to you Andy. I imagine James has the same problem then.
I guess its just one big party for most musicians...
 
Cant agree more,

I was actually quiet appalled when I was watching the Trivium (latest album) studio video and as they are recording in Nashville they wanted to record an organic album with no triggers and BD blah blah blah.

Yeah and its funny considering Shogun has drum samples on it, I don't know if they know but its true. :zombie:
 
Talk to the A&R's, let the bands have a PTLE rig in their rehearsalroom so they can do the composing and arranging in their own time?

In this day in age, I find it absurd any "professional" band wouldn't be doing this...I mean, for a few grand you can have a good sounding preproduction that tells you just how much you suck before you go spend tens of thousands on the real deal.

That's why I've built a home studio, so I can tinker and write on my own time. I am not a professional musicians, I have a good day job that I love and pays my bills nicely. If I can do it, they certainly can as well.

Apparently the new Sacrifice album is being recorded now, and they're going totally organic (not even a click track, apparently!) Should rule regardless because Sacrifice are gods :worship:, so we'll see how it turns out!
 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the subject, Mr. Sneap! I'm in total agreement. The last place material should be written is the studio.

...and it's very unfortunate that most bands don't come into the studio at 100% in terms of preparation. One would hope that sort of thing would begin to disappear at a higher level of band/label/project, but apparently not. There's no substitute for good musicianship.
 
yeah... recently spent 10, count 'em... 10, five to seven hour days tracking bass for one album.... ridiculous, but it was necessary unless i was going to play it all myself. and of course the label is breathing down my neck wondering what's taking all the time. preparation folks. Andy hit it on the head.... and it's so funny that these same bands that are lashing out about the way their previous albums were done, needed those tools used so badly, lest their albums sounds like the shit-stains they would have had they not been employed... AND those same bands, doing their "organic" albums, are either being completely disingenuous or are truly clueless to the fact that on all them the drums were STILL edited and STILL have samples.
 
TBH I can't remember the last time I listened to a CD that had more than 10 tracks, and thought that those extra songs were necessary. Record labels need to back off and realise that people would rather have 6-8 really good songs rather than 12 watered-down songs. I get more excited seeing an album with only 6 tracks than 12/13. I always know then whether commercial bullshit has played a part in the making of the record.
 
Speaks volumes. So the blame is on the engineer as to why we have to drum replace! We wouldn't sound replace if we didn't HAVE to. Bands think we sound replace for fun.

Cutting up shitty drums for an 11 track CD is NOT fun :lol:

 
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http://www.youtube.com/user/trivium

Is this is their 'au naturel' I won't even DL their new album...

I still think mixing metal is the hardest thing to do, everything is fookin loud and has to fit between 1-7 Khz. Keeping the drums unprocessed and the guitars printed amped will not get you there. Duh.

They're right they should be able to record onetakers of their songs, no argument there. But if you replace the drums with samples (and go for reamping) the timing & dynamics stays the same, but the guitars can sound louder in the mix.

Hard to imagine a guitarist sees a problem in that.
 
Man, that video really pisses me off...I can only imagine how much more pissed off Andy must be. I CANNOT BELIEVE that Trivium really thinks that their latest record sounds so much more "natural" and "real" than their other records...and as already mentioned in this thread, there is plenty of sample replacement going on with "Shogun". And reamping? I have never in my life heard a band bitching about how reamping "takes the life" out of a performance or somehow degrades the realness of it, that is utterly ridiculous. That's a huge slap in the face towards Andy, basically telling him that his guitar tone skills can actually be a bad thing. All of this just seems like typical Trivium elitist drivel, something that they are famous for. Sure, play your songs in one take by all means, but copying and pasting identical guitar parts in no way takes away from the life of a recording...if it's tight, it's tight, and that's all there is to it in my opinion. When their drummer talks about the goal being "to capture their live sound, the bigness of Trivium", it just makes me laugh, because none of those guys really know how their band sounds from an audience perspective, because they're on the stage listening to monitor mixes. I've heard plenty of good live mixes in my life and plenty of bad ones, and it always has little to nothing to do with the band...so trying to come off as, "We sound amazing live, so amazing in fact, that we are better than modern metal recording techniques" is extremely arrogant.
 
Man, that video really pisses me off...I can only imagine how much more pissed off Andy must be. I CANNOT BELIEVE that Trivium really thinks that their latest record sounds so much more "natural" and "real" than their other records...and as already mentioned in this thread, there is plenty of sample replacement going on with "Shogun". And reamping? I have never in my life heard a band bitching about how reamping "takes the life" out of a performance or somehow degrades the realness of it, that is utterly ridiculous. That's a huge slap in the face towards Andy, basically telling him that his guitar tone skills can actually be a bad thing. All of this just seems like typical Trivium elitist drivel, something that they are famous for. Sure, play your songs in one take by all means, but copying and pasting identical guitar parts in no way takes away from the life of a recording...if it's tight, it's tight, and that's all there is to it in my opinion.

And that is SPOT on... could not have said it better myself.
In that video they could probably convince all the people who don't know what goes in a studio, and the ones who know a little.
The re-amping part is just ridiculous!

They just want to sound pure and natural for the sake of sounding pure and natural.. ditching great options like multiple takes, re-amping and samples on the way... stupid.
 
...."We sound amazing live, so amazing in fact, that we are better than modern metal recording techniques" is extremely arrogant.

Yeah, well, they actually practised real hard:




Oh, and some wikiquotes:

"Trivium is the Latin singular form of trivia.

Trivia, basic or unimportant knowledge i.e. trivial knowledge"


Well, they live up to their name.



...and another amazing live performance:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw-mZ5x5s1M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw-mZ5x5s1M[/ame]

Proudly hosted on their own site. Tres natural.

(Guys, babes shave their pits & pubes for a damn good reason)
 
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