The Progressive/Avantgarde Metal Thread

[Einherjar86]

In practice they are pretty much synonymous most of the time... in theory the difference is pretty vast. Technical means something pertaining to technique, as in instrumental technique, and progression means taking elements of a certain genre of music and experimenting with them, often introducing elements from other genres to create something truly original, something that progresses that genre forward. More often than not, the bands just imitate Dream Theater which is a real shame because some bands have done some very creative things with their music, which I'm always open to hearing. So I guess that progressive has more to do with the actual musical aesthetics and all that and technical has to do with technique. You don't have to actually play all the weird scales that the bands seem to use, you could just as well play in the blues pentatonic or something, as long as it requires a lot of technique to pull off.

This is actually the best post I've seen. Thanks.

I think that does a good job of explaining the difference between progressive and technical; however, I would add another bit for avant-garde music.

If "progressive" means it advances the genre, then I think that "avant-garde" should be a step beyond that; avant-garde music signifies music that defies genre classification at all (whether by experimenting with new "techniques" that are yet to be labeled, or by combining so many different elements that it's impossible to designate any one of them the primary genre). Personally, I believe that it's very hard for a band to succeed in this field, but there are a few albums that I would say are hard to categorize:

Arcturus- The Sham Mirrors, La Masquerade Infernale
Solefald- In Harmonia Unversali
Enid- Seelenspiegel
Kalisia- Cybion
Virgin Black (I personally find all their albums very unique)
Diabolical Masquerade- Nightwork

 

[cannibal corpse]

This is actually the best post I've seen. Thanks.

I think that does a good job of explaining the difference between progressive and technical; however, I would add another bit for avant-garde music.

If "progressive" means it advances the genre, then I think that "avant-garde" should be a step beyond that; avant-garde music signifies music that defies genre classification at all (whether by experimenting with new "techniques" that are yet to be labeled, or by combining so many different elements that it's impossible to designate any one of them the primary genre). Personally, I believe that it's very hard for a band to succeed in this field, but there are a few albums that I would say are hard to categorize:

Arcturus- The Sham Mirrors, La Masquerade Infernale
Solefald- In Harmonia Unversali
Enid- Seelenspiegel
Kalisia- Cybion
Virgin Black (I personally find all their albums very unique)
Diabolical Masquerade- Nightwork

I'm sure you're aware by now that avant-garde is French for "vanguard", which basically means a sort of military squadron that advances into battle first. It's appropriate to call certain bands avant-garde if they are the absolute first to experiment with something, but it's rare that a band is completely original. In fact, the only ones that come to mind right now are Demilich, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Mithras and Blotted Science. I probably forgot a few great ones and I'm not really that connected to the avant-garde scene, I will probably check out all the bands I don't know in this thread sooner or later though.

 

[CF87]

Yeah, good post.

Progressive stuff I enjoy.

Pan-Thy-Monium -Khaooohs & Kon-Fus-Ion.
Diabolical Masquerade -Nightwork.
Edge of Sanity -Crimson,Crimson 2.
Scar Symmetry -Pitch Black Progress. Symmetric in Design on the other hand is pretty average.
Katatonia -The Great Cold Distance.
Amorphis -Elegy,Tuonela and last 3 albums, especially Skyforger. I think these albums fall more into Prog-Rock though and same goes for Katatonia.
Opeth -Watershed,Ghost Reveries,Blackwater Park,etc.. ^
Subterranean Masquerade -Suspended Animation Dreams ^
Cynic -focus. I use to enjoy this album awile ago and regardless not liking the robo vocals got past them. I recently heard How Could I for the first time in awile and now have interest in getting back into it.

Arcturus -the sham mirrors is a lot better than both of those.

 

[cannibal corpse]

Yeah, good post.

Progressive stuff I enjoy.

Pan-Thy-Monium -Khaooohs & Kon-Fus-Ion.
Diabolical Masquerade -Nightwork.
Edge of Sanity -Crimson,Crimson 2.
Scar Symmetry -Pitch Black Progress. Symmetric in Design on the other hand is pretty average.
Katatonia -The Great Cold Distance.
Amorphis -Elegy,Tuonela and last 3 albums, especially Skyforger. I think these albums fall more into Prog-Rock though and same goes for Katatonia.
Opeth -Watershed,Ghost Reveries,Blackwater Park,etc.. ^
Subterranean Masquerade -Suspended Animation Dreams ^
Cynic -focus. I use to enjoy this album awile ago and regardless not liking the robo vocals got past them. I recently heard How Could I for the first time in awile and now have interest in getting back into it.

Arcturus -the sham mirrors is a lot better than both of those.

How do those rank up to Dawn of Dreams? I love Dawn of Dreams, but never heard any of their other albums.

 

[AchrisK]

Actually, I've wanted to ask this for a while:

While I think we can all agree on a clear distinction between progressive and avant-garde, what exactly is the difference between progressive and technical metal?

My thoughts:

Technical IMO means technically difficult to play, and that's about it. I think of bands like Meshuggah and others whose music is only enjoyable by those who wonder at the difficulty in playing it. To me, purely technical metal is often soulless and cold and not enjoyable.

Progressive IMO signifies more actual songwriting skill. That is, skill at giving songs life. But in addition, I believe it utilizes non-standard song structures, mixing compatible genres and instruments, and often a higher level of technicality. I believe progressive is successfully creating non-standard music.

I believe avante-garde takes the mixing of genres and the non-standard songwriting a step further, into the realm of constructing songs from seemingly incompatible mixtures. I think this is why it is harder to swallow for many people. I believe there is less concern for the soul of the song than in progressive, but more than with purely technical.

 

[the phoenix]

Outstanding avantgarde bands that I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread are:
Solefald
Age of Silence
Transcending Bizarre?
Peccatum
Diablo Swing Orchestra
Arcturus

Plus I enjoy a couple songs from Korova, Cronian, and Chaostar.

I should qualify this - I do not believe these bands only fall into the sub-genre of avantgarde, for example Transcending Bizarre would probably be avantgarde blackened death.

Anyways, I'm always surprised how unpopular Age of Silence is, especially considering its line-up includes Lazare, Hellhammer, and Andy Winter.. some of my favourite songs of all-time come from that band..

I believe avante-garde takes the mixing of genres and the non-standard songwriting a step further, into the realm of constructing songs from seemingly incompatible mixtures.

Wouldn't that fall into the alternative genre?

I think this is why it is harder to swallow for many people.

I definitely disagree there. I still say the distinction is that prog involves compromising melodic continuity for the sake of a special flavour of harmonic complexity and/or compositional elegance.

I'm sure you're aware by now that avant-garde is French for "vanguard", which basically means a sort of military squadron that advances into battle first. It's appropriate to call certain bands avant-garde if they are the absolute first to experiment with something, but it's rare that a band is completely original. In fact, the only ones that come to mind right now are Demilich, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Mithras and Blotted Science. I probably forgot a few great ones and I'm not really that connected to the avant-garde scene, I will probably check out all the bands I don't know in this thread sooner or later though.

I think the avantgarde genre often gets dismissed because it's assumed that the amount of possible note combinations that would sound really good is vastly underestimated in general. In fact I'd say it's some kind of feat that the music industry has been able to keep repeating the same old shit thus far while still managing to tweak it enough to sometimes sound fresh in certain ways.. it's all very limited.

 

[divine_torture]

All these genres piss me off. Technical-post-modern-thrashy-black-doom-death-with bits of techno-pop. Who cares?

 

[CF87]

How do those rank up to Dawn of Dreams? I love Dawn of Dreams, but never heard any of their other albums.

As much as I like Dawn of Dreams enjoy Khaooohs & Kon-Fus-Ion more. Dawn of Dreams as a whole album is great, but Khaooohs & Kon-Fus-Ion has the expirimentation of the first track from that album from the beginning to end. Dawn of Dreams seems to be intended on listening to as whole, not single songs. It's to bad the band broke up after. Khaooohs & Kon-Fus-Ion actually never intended on being released and the band went back into the studio and added things because Relapse offered them a deal.

 

[cannibal corpse]

All these genres piss me off. Technical-post-modern-thrashy-black-doom-death-with bits of techno-pop. Who cares?

You know what pisses me off too? Why the hell are books in libraries alphabetized? Why do there exist so many god damn names of sub-species of animals? Fucking bullshit.

Get real, we can't possibly go anywhere if we don't keep everything neatly organized, everything would be in a damn mess.

 

[the phoenix]

Get real, we can't possibly go anywhere if we don't keep everything neatly organized, everything would be in a damn mess.

An old discordian saying goes something like this...

My file folders went everywhere the other day, but when I put them back the order was all off. It probably happened when they fell, but in any case, it was a nice breath of fresh air.

 

[cannibal corpse]

An old discordian saying goes something like this...

My file folders went everywhere the other day, but when I put them back the order was all off. It probably happened when they fell, but in any case, it was a nice breath of fresh air.

Discordance makes me feel pretty uncomfortable actually, so no thanks.

 

[divine_torture]

You know what pisses me off too? Why the hell are books in libraries alphabetized? Why do there exist so many god damn names of sub-species of animals? Fucking bullshit.

Get real, we can't possibly go anywhere if we don't keep everything neatly organized, everything would be in a damn mess.

Yeah, because music needs to be so neatly organized? Not so much. Maybe for fags who need to feel cool because their iTunes is all nice. I don't have Devourment as slam or brutal, it's death metal. Same as Deicide. It's not that important. A little organization is fine, but to take sub-genres into sub-genres? Faggotry.

 

[divine_torture]

And on that note, most bands we all like are 'avant-garde' or 'progressive'. Deicide progressed on what Slayer did, Suffocation progressed from what Deicide did, Devourment progressed from that...too vague of a title. Like 'viking' metal. It's typically death or black metal with melody that sings about vikings. Gay. It's still death or black metal.

 

[cannibal corpse]

Yeah, because music needs to be so neatly organized? Not so much. Maybe for fags who need to feel cool because their iTunes is all nice. I don't have Devourment as slam or brutal, it's death metal. Same as Deicide. It's not that important. A little organization is fine, but to take sub-genres into sub-genres? Faggotry.

Well I do agree somewhat that it's all death metal and it doesn't really NEED to be organized per se, but why don't post-/avant-garde-some genre / some other genre metal bands deserve to be categorized as that? With some bands, it's really not enough to say "yeah they're death metal".

 

[divine_torture]

But at the heart, that's all it is.

 

[cannibal corpse]

And on that note, most bands we all like are 'avant-garde' or 'progressive'. Deicide progressed on what Slayer did, Suffocation progressed from what Deicide did, Devourment progressed from that...too vague of a title. Like 'viking' metal. It's typically death or black metal with melody that sings about vikings. Gay. It's still death or black metal.

The worst offender is probably pirate metal as in essence it's just folk metal but I still like to call it pirate metal because it does give a better idea of what the band sounds like. Also I strongly disagree that all post-/progressive/avant-garde/experimental bands can just be condensed into their parent genre. Take Mithras for example again. What would you call them? I guess death metal right but is it really death metal? The melodies and lyrical themes are vastly different from all the common death metal traditions...

 

[divine_torture]

The worst offender is probably pirate metal as in essence it's just folk metal but I still like to call it pirate metal because it does give a better idea of what the band sounds like. Also I strongly disagree that all post-/progressive/avant-garde/experimental bands can just be condensed into their parent genre. Take Mithras for example again. What would you call them? I guess death metal right but is it really death metal? The melodies and lyrical themes are vastly different from all the common death metal traditions...

Ha! I forgot about Pirate Metal. That is the worst. And I agree, they may not be 'death' metal like it is though to be, but again, I put little emphasis on special titles. At the root, it's stylistically based in death metal. Like the bands before them, they progressed what death metal is, making them, like those before them, progressive. So why isn't Hate Eternal or Wormed considered progressive? They pushed boundaries as well.

 

[cannibal corpse]

Ha! I forgot about Pirate Metal. That is the worst. And I agree, they may not be 'death' metal like it is though to be, but again, I put little emphasis on special titles. At the root, it's stylistically based in death metal. Like the bands before them, they progressed what death metal is, making them, like those before them, progressive. So why isn't Hate Eternal or Wormed considered progressive? They pushed boundaries as well.

I would call Wormed pretty progressive, but I wouldn't really give them the title "progressive", if that makes any sense. They don't really play progressive death metal but they progressed death metal further, so yeah. No idea, I don't really know why you feel compelled to simplify every single band into all the main sub-genres like black, thrash, folk, power, death, doom all that good stuff. If anything more complicated categorization means you can more easily track down exactly what kind of metal you like and find other bands that fall under that kinda same style.

 

[Einherjar86]

I'm sure you're aware by now that avant-garde is French for "vanguard", which basically means a sort of military squadron that advances into battle first.

Yes, which is why I suggested that avant-garde music should be music that's hard to classify, thus being, due a large extent, original.

 

[cannibal corpse]

Yes, which is why I suggested that avant-garde music should be music that's hard to classify, thus being, due a large extent, original.

Exactly. Truly avant-garde music doesn't have any parent genre, because that genre is basically the parent genre itself. Like I said, It's been a long time since I've seen a new genre of music or at least a new sub-genre of music spawn like that, but there are plenty of avant-garde <sub-genre> bands that are basically just trying to create something radically different within that sub-genre but still belonging to that sub-genre somehow. I don't know really, I don't really think there are that many truly original bands out there today so I don't really know how hard it actually is to classify a completely new band like that.