The trouble with Islam - Pat Condell

[Belgar]

i have to defend it, but if like if someone start asking me Q's about it, i dont know how to ans them. my point is, we r here for the music not for our belifes, if ur here cuz of ur belifes then ur in the wrong form my friend

Not to your discredit ... but I did you really look at what you just typed?
So you profess to be a Muslim and you get offended by what Celtik says, but you just said that you have to defend it but by the same token, you do not have answers to the questions he is asking you. Maybe I missed your point.

He has the right to be here for his belief, afterall, don't we have a lot of threads in the regards of pagan religion? This forum is full of people exchanging ideas about believes that are rooted in the themes explored by the band.

Btw, saying you are Muslim and proud, but you are not religious is really antagonistic as by definition, a Muslim is a follower of Islam. Maybe I am understanding it wrong.

On this good note, I bid you alekum salam!

 

[Celtik Militia]

The point is no one should feel insulted. If you are so completely content with how you feel about your beliefs then it shouldn't matter what someone, who knows nothing about your personal life, says about them. You arrived at your beliefs for whatever reasons.

If someone can strike a nerve when asking about your personal beliefs over the internet then maybe you should work on strengthening them for yourself.

Yeah, as Patt says, some muslims tend to "go over their way to be offended" haha. So very true.

well first of all u cant judge me from my screen name, i can put it as ViKiNg, but that doesnt mean that im a viking, 2nd of all yes im muslim and proud, and i mean by that, when someone asks me what is my belifes i'll say im muslim. but when i said dont bring religiuos issue over here, cuz we r here for the music not our belifes, plus im not religious, but i still respect it, so if someone would insult it, i wont just sit down and watch it, i have to defend it, but if like if someone start asking me Q's about it, i dont know how to ans them. my point is, we r here for the music not for our belifes, if ur here cuz of ur belifes then ur in the wrong form my friend


excuse me for my english, its just not my first language

Didn't understand everything but I got the most part of it (i think).
By the way, Pat Condell's videos on islam refer to "radical islam". If you are offended by him insulting radical muslims that means you are one, hence i damn well hope you're offended.
He does defend atheism though, and if you are offended by that, it makes YOU disrespectfull of HIS beliefs.

And also, if we only talked about Amon Amarth in this forum we'd only have new threads when AA's touring or when they release a new album, so this forum would be quite boring.
When there's a thread on any particular subject, i'm entitled to give my opinion, because I have one of my own (and not that of whatever religious dogma).

And yeah, your thing about being muslim and not being religious at the same time is kind of weird. Perhaps you think islam is an inherited thing, or ethnic?

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

that sucks that you're a muslim.

 

[Babydollcybergoth]

that sucks that you're a muslim.

Now why would you say something as stupid as that? Anyone tell you that it sucks that you're American??

 

[Swabs]

Recent thread on CoBOT is kinda related to this http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/cob-off-topic/344079-religion-discussion-thread-8.html

Sorry to link people to that dreaded place, but it's possibly the first half intelligent discussion to happen on that board

 

[Celtik Militia]

Now why would you say something as stupid as that? Anyone tell you that it sucks that you're American??

He didn't chose to be american, whereas one tends to have a certain choice in their religion or political affinities. So its not comparable

For example, a communist chose to be one, or was stupid enough to be endoctrined in this ideology. Hence he sucks.
Whereas an american is born american (unless he asks for the nationality.. i'll give you that, but that still gives him the choice of his own personality) hence he doesn't automatically suck.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

Now why would you say something as stupid as that? Anyone tell you that it sucks that you're American??

lol. Its ok to talk shit about christianity, but not islam?
eat a dick, islam is just as bad

 

[Babydollcybergoth]

Yes, NO ONE ever chooses to be American. Anyone heard of immigration? Loads of people choose to be American. I didn't say "Anyone tell you that it sucks that you're American??" to be like "You suck because you're American." I don't think Americans suck, I've got plenty of family that are American.
But at the same time, he shouldn't be saying stuff like "Sucks that you're Islamic."
I have NEVER believed in religion, born atheist, never baptized, living as an atheist. But I also know how to respect people who do believe in the whole god/devil thing, whether they choose to be Christian, Islamic, Jewish or Satanist.
What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't pick on any of the religions. If someone choses to believe in something, let them. Just the same way that my Islamic friends and Christian friends let me believe in a whole lot of nothing.

Oh... and if you're gonna tell me that immigrants to America are not Americans, then you might as well tell the "Americans" we know now that they're really NOT American.

 

[Tyra]

Just the same way that my Islamic friends and Christian friends let me believe in a whole lot of nothing.
quote]

What about when they don't though? What about the Judeo-Christian dogma that says they are supposed to save our souls by converting us by whatever means necessary, that for years now has caused my in-laws to shun my family, and call my daughters bastards? Is that just my choice for choosing to be asatru? Or is it my childrens' fault for being raised by me (I realize it is to them, because it goes back to original sin, but they're little kids who have not had the opportunity to make a choice at some point, aren't they?)? And what about when you as a woman apply to a job and have the best references and CV of all applicants, but you still don't get a job, because your prospective employer is of a specific sect or religion that firmly believes that women should finish grade 8, get married, have children and stay home and raise them and their 12 siblings, until the day you keel over? Don't tell me they don't exist, becasue I live in the middle of them, and I know how hard it is to get a job in this community based on those rules. Isn't the problem that it is a one-sided proposition here - we have to conform to their rules, but they do not have to conform to ours, because they have the fancier bombs?

And Celtic, political alignment isn't always a choice either, at least not according to most of those who grew up in Nazi Germany or Communist Soviet Union/Campuchea or whatever.

Krigley, I'm 'unna take your advice as soon as my husband wakes up. He thanks you for the suggestion (since he's got the only dick in the house and all).

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

 

[ian.de]

Krigley, I'm 'unna take your advice as soon as my husband wakes up. He thanks you for the suggestion (since he's got the only dick in the house and all).

we need more women like you in the world

 

[Celtik Militia]

Yes, NO ONE ever chooses to be American. Anyone heard of immigration? Loads of people choose to be American. I didn't say "Anyone tell you that it sucks that you're American??" to be like "You suck because you're American." I don't think Americans suck, I've got plenty of family that are American.
But at the same time, he shouldn't be saying stuff like "Sucks that you're Islamic."
I have NEVER believed in religion, born atheist, never baptized, living as an atheist. But I also know how to respect people who do believe in the whole god/devil thing, whether they choose to be Christian, Islamic, Jewish or Satanist.
What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't pick on any of the religions. If someone choses to believe in something, let them. Just the same way that my Islamic friends and Christian friends let me believe in a whole lot of nothing.

Oh... and if you're gonna tell me that immigrants to America are not Americans, then you might as well tell the "Americans" we know now that they're really NOT American.

Babydollcybergoth; You perhaps missed what i put in parentheses in my post. I said one can chose to be american indeed, but being of a certain nationality doesn't impose a doctrine to you, especially in america where freedom of speech, i must admit, is very strong. Whereas being of some religion does influence highly your personnality.

(And yes Tyra, some states obliged their citizens to think one way or another, but they can always pretend to be nazi or communist while secretly disliking it. As for propaganda influencing someone in being a commie/nazi (or leftist in western europe for example), as i said, if the person is stupid enough to be influenced its his problem and he's as bad as someone who believes the bible or the Koran litterally.)

Babydollcybergoth: I don't usually pick on religions. But i do like to pick on Islam. I dislike Islam. We got 6 million muslims here in France, they fuck things up by whining all the time, asking for special privileges (which they get eventually thanks to the collaborator politicians who wouldn't mind that electorate).
The 2nd video on the 1rst post of this thread says a lot about the situation in western europe. The result of that 9/11 rally against the islamisation of Europe was police brutality against the ralliers, multiple arrests including that of parliamentaries (some of which famous european politicians). They'll do anything to shut people up. Its a disgrace.

But, you know what? As I said, we have 6 million muslims in France, how about we send them all off to Sweden? they'll breed you out in one generation, i'm sure you won't mind...

 

[Tyra]

As I said, we have 6 million muslims in France, how about we send them all off to Sweden? they'll breed you out in one generation, i'm sure you won't mind...

Too late. 1 out of every 3 Swedish citizens were not born there. Most of them are catholic or moslem. And before them, it was the French, who were catholic. And before them it was the Germans, who were lutherans. And before them it was the Dutch - I don't even know what they were, becasue they switched somewhere mid way, but they sure weren't of the old Scandinavian religion. And before them it was the English, who were catholics at the time. Even the Old Tradition didn't originate in Scandinavia. Sweden's already been bowled over so many times that it is not a for sure thing what it really means to be Swedish anyhow, if you base it on religion. I don't think you can base what a citizen is based on religion alone. I think it is religion and cultural differences that bother people. One comes with the other, so even if you remove the religion, the problem still remains.
Besides, Babydoll just finished saying she's an atheist and that she doesn't mind other religions, since she's assuming they'll respect her right to not be moslem, so what does she care if her and all her non moslem friends are out-bred in one generation? Or not, Babydoll?

 

[Belgar]

Babydollcybergoth; america where freedom of speech, i must admit, is very strong.

not the america I know (or not the way it used prior to 2001). This place is turning into a police state and I cannot wait to get the hell out of here. In part thanks to all the sheeps who are willing to give up their liberty and freedom for a so-called security ... beware the attack of the people of the cave and forced fed propaganda... coming to a theater near you.
Freedom of speech here? I suggest you check out the Patriot act, at least read it like I have, unlike 99% of the people here who have not.
If the Patriot act is boring then, you can read the history of the Roman empire to know the fate that awaits this country.
This country ain't the land of the free.

 

[Babydollcybergoth]

What about when they don't though? What about the Judeo-Christian dogma that says they are supposed to save our souls by converting us by whatever means necessary, that for years now has caused my in-laws to shun my family, and call my daughters bastards? Is that just my choice for choosing to be asatru? Or is it my childrens' fault for being raised by me (I realize it is to them, because it goes back to original sin, but they're little kids who have not had the opportunity to make a choice at some point, aren't they?)? And what about when you as a woman apply to a job and have the best references and CV of all applicants, but you still don't get a job, because your prospective employer is of a specific sect or religion that firmly believes that women should finish grade 8, get married, have children and stay home and raise them and their 12 siblings, until the day you keel over? Don't tell me they don't exist, becasue I live in the middle of them, and I know how hard it is to get a job in this community based on those rules. Isn't the problem that it is a one-sided proposition here - we have to conform to their rules, but they do not have to conform to ours, because they have the fancier bombs?

If they get in your face about it, then yeah I agree that you have every right to get right back in their face. Dude was like "sucks that you're Muslim" when the other guy was saying "I'm Muslim and proud of it."

I've had my fair share of people telling me that I am burning in hell. I had some Sikh guy even threaten to kill me in the middle of class in front of everyone because I refuse to tell him "Yes, there is a god."

 

[Babydollcybergoth]

Besides, Babydoll just finished saying she's an atheist and that she doesn't mind other religions, since she's assuming they'll respect her right to not be moslem, so what does she care if her and all her non moslem friends are out-bred in one generation? Or not, Babydoll?

First of all, I'm Chinese. So I wouldn't be Swedish even if I thought Swedish thoughts everyday. Secondly, I'm in Sweden to be with a Swedish man, so I guess I'm part of the "breeding out" problem. Oh yeah, before I came to Sweden, I lived most of my life in Canada. No one (I knew of) is worried about "breeding out" anyone, at least where I lived.

 

[Bates]

not the america I know (or not the way it used prior to 2001). This place is turning into a police state and I cannot wait to get the hell out of here. In part thanks to all the sheeps who are willing to give up their liberty and freedom for a so-called security ... beware the attack of the people of the cave and forced fed propaganda... coming to a theater near you.
Freedom of speech here? I suggest you check out the Patriot act, at least read it like I have, unlike 99% of the people here who have not.
If the Patriot act is boring then, you can read the history of the Roman empire to know the fate that awaits this country.
This country ain't the land of the free.

It still is, and it will remain so, one way or another. Not all of us are fooled by the bullshit. Truthfully, I'm of the opinion that this country has grown to the point that a fair democracy is nearly impossible, with the amount of people, there's just no way to rule all of them without fucking someone over. Sure, I'm an American, but the way I feel about that is probably about the same as you folk do about being a "European". Sure, it is a part of it, but nowhere near what I really consider myself. I'm a Yankee, and a damn proud one. And I forgot my point, dammit. But I think you'd find there are a bit more then 1% of us who are cognizant of the problem, and ready and willing to push things in a new direction.

 

[Celtik Militia]

not the america I know (or not the way it used prior to 2001). This place is turning into a police state and I cannot wait to get the hell out of here. In part thanks to all the sheeps who are willing to give up their liberty and freedom for a so-called security ... beware the attack of the people of the cave and forced fed propaganda... coming to a theater near you.
Freedom of speech here? I suggest you check out the Patriot act, at least read it like I have, unlike 99% of the people here who have not.
If the Patriot act is boring then, you can read the history of the Roman empire to know the fate that awaits this country.
This country ain't the land of the free.

yeah, i know of the Patriot act. But for all I know thats mainly about "intrusion in people's privacy".
But freedom of speech in the US is still stronger than in most European countries in my opinion. People can rally with nazi flags, people can say racist stuff, people can deny the holocaust, mexicans can tell white people to fuck out of "their" land (california), black people can call for the extermination of whites, people can be antisemite and claim it outloud..etc...
all these things, one couldn't do in Europe.
Sure, in the states the FBI probably has a file on each of these guys, but they can't arrest them for these reasons.
Which explains why many politically incorrect sites are on american servers to benefit from the 5th amendment.

But yeah, I haven't read the Patriot act or anything, i'm just saying that on what i've seen or heard over the internet. Didn't see anything for myself.

 

[Belgar]

But I think you'd find there are a bit more then 1% of us who are cognizant of the problem, and ready and willing to push things in a new direction.

Indeed, I am sure and hope that more than 1% are aware of some of the issues going out of control here. Some of the poles tend to show it. I was just refering to the Pat. act.
And again there is a difference between being aware of the issue and doing something about it. A bi partisan type of system is not good for a country. I still believe the US needs a 3rd or 4th party to start seeing some changes.
The other 2 are too much in bed with eachother and corrupt to bring any changes for the people.
You really have to dig back to the 1880's and see the Progressists who really tried to bring forth some good for the people.
For all I know and by the way it is going, it seems certain Clinton will be elected. (sadly)

Anyways, these were my 2cents worth of political rant.

 

[Bates]

I hear you. I'll let further comments lie, as the last thing this board needs is more of my political shit, but, well, this ones for you, man.