The True You

[Protocol]

Man, I wish I knew people like that. All the fun I could have! We do have jehova's witnesses, but as previously told, we scared them away.

>this does not discount the map as
>an accurate interpretation

>but we know that our mental images
>are accurate enough to trust

Yes, indeed. But what happens when people have different mental images? Truth, the physical world, history and what not, are all relative, if to nothing else than to the individual observer.

Everyone has their own map of the 'reality' territory. Oftentimes they overlap, sometimes they conflict, some are so small you can fit dozens of them on larger maps.

I do agree with you on most of what you've said, but I would present them to a counterpart as theories rather than fact. I like to keep my map big.

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by Protocol
I do agree with you on most of what you've said, but I would present them to a counterpart as theories rather than fact. I like to keep my map big.

Agreed. Yes, such are ways of viewing reality that is consistent and valid under logic and such, but there are as many realities as there are organisms to perceive it, some of which may be ridiculous, are still valid cuz there is no scale for validity. I draw the distinction between theory and fact when I feel the evidence is strong enough to support the claim, but i know ultimately it's just subjective and meaningless, this being the entire premise of my ranting. However, we have to draw the line somewhere. We know anything is possible and all points of view are valid, but for the purpose of discussion I think we should be limited to the observable and measurable "facts" (for lack of a better, less weighted word).

For example, I know a guy who has convinced himself that we are all alien spirits trapped in these bodies and we are enslaved by the big head in space. There are others who think they are immortal and will live on in an afterlife. Some believe the actual literal interpretation of reincarnation. I would say these things are all whacky in the same way.

Does your map allow for all possibilities, even these? Do you dismiss *anything* as just foolish and unworthy of consideration? How fucked must someone's map be to not be emcompassed by yours? hehe Also, if your map is so big that it allows for all possibilities, then how do you get where you're going?

Tell me I'm an idiot, I'll agree, hehe,

Satori, lard tunderin geesus b'y

 

[Protocol]

>we are all alien spirits trapped in these bodies
>and we are enslaved by the big head in space

This can very well be his reality, but it does not coincide with my map of the physical world. To push the above claim into everyone's notion of the world is simply absurd.

'Alien spirits' I associate with bad sci-fi, 'spirits' I associate with fairytales and such, 'enslaved' in its current form and most common definition is not applicable to our position (alien influence or no), and the notion of a 'head'-shaped or 'head'-equivalent function filling object in space is rather irrational.

But if you rephrase it somewhat, the effect can be changed quite radically:

"We are all [souls of some kind] trapped in these bodies and we are under the covert influence of some extra-terrestrial neural entity."

A lot of the absurdity can be transformed into plain unlikeliness, thestatement can be shapeshifted a lot with definitions.

As for the other two issues: the immortal soul and reincarnation - we simply can't know for sure since we don't know exactly how the mind/soul/whatever works yet (or do we?). These subjects can be discussed in theory only, whereas the head-in-space thing is more of a practical issue. (If you define a person as not only the thoughts inside you, but also encompassing the thoughts of others about your ego, then one version of afterlife could be remembrance.)

This is all assuming that the ideas you presented are applied to the 'material reality'-niche of the map.

Last point for now: I don't know where I'm going. I never have.

.I am Protocol.

 

[Autumn Rust]

Satori,
yes very true, everyone has a different perspective because what gets triggered in their conscious and sub-conscious total of mind is the total of what their life experience is.... but to me you see, reality is only an opinion.
And opinion is the thing created to let the fool speak and be heard. It is the fools excuse... but at the same time gives the freedom to the intellect and be heard (but then again truth speaks for itself). So it could be total shit or it aint. So how do you know?

well, I believe in testing things scientifically (modern day science may be cold in the way that it wont take a leap before judging you as insane but true science investigates everything no matter how weird a theory it is.) And by using this logic tool with lateral thinking I try to discover the essence of reality. If my testing is worng... well I pay the price for that blindness and learn from my acent into death.
I guess that testing things to learn what they do is the only lantern we have to find the way into ourselves and beyond.
More specifically our curiosity.
So don't let that be numbed down by society and life's errors.

LOL! @ BurzumBeast,
quite a contradiction that house aint it?
well I saw my mom do the funniest thing.. she got pissed off at a jehovas freak cause they made her hurry to the door and and she got all this fuckin water inside the house.... so she goes 'fuck it'... and grabbed the hose (since it was already majorly wet inside), opened the door and let out a fucking wargasmic scream and blasted those fuckers with the hose! I was laughin my tits off cause I've never seen my 'innocent lady' mother do such shit. and y'know what? we haven't got a jehovas witness in the last 6 years.. lol.
now thats a great tip to get rid of those assholes.

and another incredible thing I saw on late night evangelist tv when I was coming home from a gig, was this ad they where doing... the Rev's names where Rev Cash and Rev Dollar.. NO SHIT! I was rolling on the fucking ground! I should've taped it! and they where trying to sell some video set of some bible stories for 'twenne naaaane naaanyfaave + GST'.. and they call us freaks... ha!

 

[Sadistik]

Well Satori, sounds like you've been reading your Sartre as of late! Well, anyway, I feel like if I got intom my thought processes the way several other posters have, I'd probably never shut up, so here goes: I cannot stand people who live their lives in pursuit of the basest need: acceptance. Were not some of the most brilliant minds considered heretics and outcasts? These people today, it harks back to the old analogy of the flock of sheep being herded by the all powerful shepherd (religion, society, government, etc.). I am constantly evaluating my life and the world around me . People I meet, even at college, seem very narcissitic in nature. They think "how does the world respond to me?", whereas I think, and it would be a shame if others didn't have a similar POV, "How do I respond to the world?" As far as I am concerned response is everything. I gauge my reactions to have the fullest effect on the world around me. If I simply thought that my mere existence matters, the narcissism shines through. The people who dress like goth "freaks" just to get attention are the types to which I refer. Which is more powerful: the blatant, "out-there" in your face anti-establishment figure or the one who subtly goes about life manipulating the world through carefully considered actions and reactions? The latter might be considered dangerous in some respects, but is that person not in control, whether we know it or not? That is what I strive to be. As Socrates said, "the unexamined life is not worth living".

 

[Satori]

Ok, I wrote this below and it's really long and I don't know if it will make sense to many, but anyway, it might just all seem really weird and may not make sense at first so I ask that you give it some thought and see what I'm actually talking about before going off into unrelated earthly tangents such as "finding yourself" and other such thoughts. Things such as society, mental maps, personality, figuring out our place in the world, death, soul, afterlife, etc are NOT what I'm talking about. All these things are interpretive and I'm trying to get at what's below the interpretations by showing the complete inadequacy of what we regard as rational thought. So I don't feel the urge to reply if anyone thinks what I'm saying here can be applied to things such as "becoming enlightened upon finding oneself" or whatever, I seriously can't even entertain such an idea for second and if you feel that this what what I'm talking about below then I can't really respond. I'm not talkng about that at allin the classical sense of "ego" and "individuality". I don't see myself as distinct from my environment so I can't really write as if I do, which is what it would take to respond to much of this "finding oneself" bullshit.


Hmm.. sleepy, reading with passive interest all that's been said and one overwhelming thought came to mind that I thought I'd share: It all seems like such pointless crap, all of it, even what I am saying right here. I've noted that we tend to think and think and come up with all sorts of perspectives on everything in the most noble attempts to grasp reality but in thinking about reality and the mind spinning such as it does, true reality is lost in the thoughts and ideas. I realize how weird this sounds, I'll provide an example.

Let's say we look at a flower. We stand outside on a sunny day, wind blowing, birds chirping, and there is a beautiful little flower in the grass. We take note of the flower, but what are we actually taking note of? What do we really see? Here's my stand on what we see.. what we see is complete bullshit. We don't actually see the flower, we see our mental image of it, and this mental image is as old as you are and has been growing and changing since you were born. This is key in what I'm saying.. reality isn't external and something we experience directly, it is internal and has much more to do with what's in our minds than what we think we are experiencing. This is not the same as saying "reality is subjective". Reality is us, it's everything, if we externalize ourselves from reality and think we are separate from it then there's no hope of "understanding" anything. Looking at the flower we notice that it is yellow (colour is a fabrication of mind). We noticed that it looks very soft (texture is a fabrication of mind). One of the petals are missing (the idea that something can be missing is a fabrication of mind). It smells sweet (scent is a total fabrication of mind). It is higher than the grass around it.. another personified subjective human idea. As I've said before,

We don't see reailty, we see a faint reflection of reality, and we are the mirror.

In this case, looking at the flower, our thoughts came up with all kinds of impressions and descriptions of the flower, perhaps you really love flowers and you also get emotional when looking at them, that feeling in you is also part of your interpretation of the flower (another mind fabrication of course, like everything). Maybe you are looking at the same kind of flower that was on top of a loved one's casket and this flower with it's colour and scent makes you feels sad. Whether you think so or not, all these impressions you've had of flowers for your whole life is creating your image of the flower you see in front of you right now. If you were poisoned by a flower as a kid then you will have this innate fear and anxiety when looking at it, you will think flowers are bad even though you may not remember why and know flowers are neither good or bad.. but it doesn't matter, the mind forms an impression based on it's knowledge and experiences and that's really what you are looking at. The flower is actually none of the ways that I've described it and it has none of the human attibutes I've ascribed to it, like colour, texture, scent, emotions, it's all just personified subjective bullshit.

Now, if we can't even see a flower for what it truly is without our enoumous psyches getting in the way and reinterpreting it into something completely different than what it is, then what hope do we have of thinking accurately about things such as true self or the "after life", or anything for that matter. We can theorize all we want but ultimately anything we see or think isn't actually or literally "real". For this reason I can't even entertain discussions about god, soul, true self, etc, cuz to me it's just a bunch of freaks sitting around discussing the nuances of the shade of colour of a flower which doesn't actually exist (the colour I mean). Complete crap usually comes out of most discussions.

Some may think I'm into philosophy and I am, but I consider most of it just complete bullshit thoughts about thoughts about thoughts which just make the mind spin in circles and go nowhere at all. It's pointless. We can sit around and discuss for a million years what the flower actually is or isn't and we'd be much further from what it actually is than when we first started cuz then we'd have a million years worth of personified reasoning surrounding the flower, billions of more interpretations which only serve to cloud our judgement further.

Thoughts personify/subjectify the universe and are inherently extremely inaccurate. Thoughts about thoughts (ie thinking) leads the mind even further from true understanding of the universe. For example, the flower smell sweet, then we think, I like sweet, it tastes good and make me happy. We don't actually consciously think that, but that's what happens when we smell a flower whether we think so or not, chemicals released in the brain which alter our fragile, fleeting, and ever changing perspective on what we think we are experiencing. This happens without our control or knowledge and it can't be stopped.

We can see, feel, and smell flower, these are the sense we employ to get information about it. Colours, textures, and smells don't actually exist so all the info we receive is just subjective bullshit. Just had to reinterate that.

So, when we look at an object or hear a sound it's actually mostly just in our heads and our minds are so biased as to completely alter what we think we are seeing. Kinda makes it hard to know anything for certain, hehe. I know how whacky this sounds, believe me, it's not a very 'normal' way of thinking. For example, most people in the civilized world see 90 degree angles everywhere when they look at buildings from any direction, but they actually see non right angles cuz that's just how a right angle looks from any position other than right in front of it. Living in this square world, our minds are conditioned to see right angles everywhere even though we see all sizes of angles all the time. Give you computer screen a little turn in one direction, it still looks like a square doesn't it? But what you are seeing now is a not a square, but you mind does a great job of interpreting it as a square your knowledge or consent. If you try hard you can see the non-right angles but it's hard and it goes back to being right-angles again as soon as you stop thinking like that. This is just one small example of how what we see is not actually what is there. If you saw a computer screen from a distance and the right side was smaller in height than the left, you would swear the screen was turned a bit to the right and that you were seeing all right angles, even though there isn't any. Perception is inherently biased and can never be truly trusted in the deepest sense.

Forget any hope of objectivity, it's hopeless, everything is just an interpretation of mind and should NEVER be mistaken for reality. We must understand that our ideas are just that, ideas, and nothing more. While they may serve as a good model for understanding reality for a hairless ape on a watery planet, they are nothing more than various reflections of ourselves in the natural world. We must not mistake our thoughts for reality. We don't see reality, we see our personified interpretation of it. Our senses lie to us always. If we trust our senses too accutely, we become imprisoned by them.

continued...

 

[Satori]

All this understanding oneself seems rather overrated to me. What's to understand? I can see how it can apply to ones normal daily life, we are human after all and have to behave as such, but when people relate self discovery to spiritual/religious persuits then for me the discussion has lost the point. All this finding yourself stuff is more in the vein of psychology, the study of mind/interpretation/reaction, and spirituality, imo, is deeper and far less explicable. Thoughts cannot grasp ultimate reality.

If people sit around with their minds spinning with profound nonsense of self-analysis then that's fine, but we must be aware that thoughts do not equal or even remotely reflect reality, fun as it is it's just bullshit, even what I'm writing right now is all just crap, and all I can hope is to point in a direction which gives some insight into this void of reality. The words do not exist to convey the experience I'm trying to explain. It is a turning about in the deepest seat of consciousness which leads to the selflessness of the much misunderstood lable of existentialism or zen or whatever you want to call it. It is often called "enlightenment" but I find this quite misleading. It's really not that big of a deal, it's not some big relevation, it's what you've always known since you were in the womb but never quite put your finger on. If we could look at the flower without bias, in effect, without consciously thinking, just experiencing without interpreting the experience then we melt into the flower and get a sense of becoming the flower as the subject-object division dissolves. I feel that if we want to find "self" (for lack of a better word) then all we have to do is look at the flower and just fall into the moment of direct experience without thinking about what we are seeing. Then the mind, which typically makes us feel distinct from reality, helps us to feel like reality ourselves, and this is just a simple cold fact (if there such a thing as a fact): we are just a part of our environment and nothing more. This sense of ego we have is a fabrication of mind, just like colour or sound, and it only exists within our heads and no where else. The universe is you and you are the universe, like it or not, believe it or not, that is what "true self" is. Consciousness is not "self", consciousness is just another expression of universal variation. It's all so obvious, it's right here in front of us right now, what are we really seeking? And won't seeking it just push us further into the illusion of something we can never find anyway? There's no point in getting spiritual and metaphysical about "mind", mind is just a bunch of spinning perspectives, constantly evolving, never the same for more than a few seconds.

Using mind to find "mind" is a lot like trying to grab the positive end of a magnet with the positively charged end of another magnet. As you chase mind with mind, it keeps running away. The mind won't hold still it jumps. It's like trying to use fire to burn fire, it's a hopeless venture.

There's much much more that I can say about this, but I'm hoping that this can at least be a start. Some of you will think this is all nonsense. I didn't write this for you, I wrote it for other's who see glimpses of mysticism/existentialism in themselves and wish to explore it. If you think what I've said here is nonsense then you probably don't think along these lines and will never see what I'm actually talking about, it's a kind of thing where you either get it already and have always known it since before you were even self-aware or you have never seen it and never will. That's cool, there's all kinds of ideas out there for everyone, it doesn't make any right or wrong, they are all just bullshit subjective interpretations anyway, even this one. The "feeling" of existentialism is usually "spiritual" (in the non-religious/non-mythical sense). If you gained "spiritual" insights (feelings of understanding/connectiveness with the universe) from what I've said, then you have existentialist tendencies without a doubt, and I know many of you already do and I think that's totally cool, I feel a kinship with you that goes beyond "understanding".

So what is self? Perhaps a better question is, what is it not?

just another relection of reality..

Satori, the spiritual non-theist newfie freak from hell

"Self is the universe - not separate - the state before the fall into self consciousness." -Cynic

PS: religion must die. Muwhhahah!

 

[HoserHellspawn]

Alright then.

As a creature who will always percieve reality through the inaccuracies of the human brain, we are and forever will be incapable of seeing "true" reality. It may as well not even be part of "our" universe as we are unable to objectively view it due to the inherent obstructions of an existence filtered through the five senses. To me, this raises the question "why does it matter?". If everything we know is a relative perception, then as far as we are concerned, this reality you speak of will never be of consequence to us... we can never know what this abstract notion is, affect it, take any lessons from it, or have it affect us. The interaction is constant yet meaningless. To follow your analogy, every aspect of the flower is a fabrication of the mind. We see it as having colour and texture and the like and if it doesn't, then what does it matter? If the "truth" or "reality" people speak of is the relative one that they will only ever be able to see, why argue that there's another one that they cannot? Correct or not, it certainly appears less relavent than our interpretive sense of reality, as false as it may be. Which one is actually bullshit as it concerns us? I realize that the mere asking of this question implies further subjectivity and just goes to back your point further, but it's the bias of the only reality that actually exists.

It seems to me that a conversation pertaining to humans discussing discovering/defining (Ooohh, alliteration!) aspects of their personality is a discussion that exists purely within our respective realms of interpretation, as personality is itself a fabrication of the mind. As much as I respect and am fascinated by your highly insightful argument, I must agree with you in saying that it and the topic at hand bear no relation.

...at least for the sake of this argument. I never hold anything I say as "true"... friends of mine have attributed this to a lack of self-confidence but I'm sure that it has to do more with my acceptance of the limitations of my perspective. This whole opinion could change tomorrow. Right. I'm all done.

"Turn up the Flash Gordon noise and put more science stuff around. Lowering the breakfast pastry... contact Dr. Jemima... YUM!"

 

[NovembersDirge]

This entire post is very interesting, so I will give you a little insight to myself, and how I ended up where I am.

People ramming Christian dogma down your throat seems to be quite the recurring theme throughout, and again I too have had to deal with Christian Dogma. Being that both of my parents are ordained ministers in the Christian [Lutheran] church, my first step "to the darkness" was simply a kneejerk reaction. I was rebelling against my parents, as I believe most [healthy] teenagers do at about the same time (unless you're from a very family oriented society in which rebellion is frowned upon so sharply, that you cannot safely do it).

However, I didn't "grow out of it," as my sister and brother apparently did. I didn't "move on." I found that darkness is truly more beautiful than the light. There is much here that exceeds that which is found in the light: the intellectual superiority; the musical superiority; the amount of talent just floating around in the underground metal scene is insane.

I never did soul searching to find my "true self." I just was myself. After years of being tormented for being different, I realised that if I ever tried to be the same, it would be a worthless endeavour. I'm not like anyone else, I'm not going to be like anyone else. I'm myself, with my own tastes, and my own thoughts, and my own view of the world.

I've spent years with my nose stuck in books, and sitting in my room playing guitar and writing music. I've also found that music that is dark, is much more emotional than that which is light. We cannot deny our emotions, nor can we always be happy. Thus we must embrace our dark side, and embrace all of our emotions.

Now that I've just ranted, and none of you probably care I'll continue my day, uneventfully staring at this screen.

 

[MetalManCPA]

I have learned quite a lot in reading these responses to my original post. The depth of peoples souls here is incredible. Some can articulate quite well using the typed word - I myself speak better than the type-wrtitten translation of my thoughts.

As far as what I meant on the original post - "searching" for the true you isn't about soul searching. It's more about being focused in a natural way, and not letting the distractions of the reality around you prick holes in the inner you. {Don't believe what you see} We all know who we are - we don't need to "find ourselves". I can look back and honestly say that I fell prey to the falseness around me, and believed it. Only recently has my vision become clear, and I am able to see through the fog that most people create. I don't necessarily believe I am drawn to darkness. It isn't a matter of light/dark. It's about a totally different perspective on your surroundings, different than most people I know.

My clarity comes from dealing with a very personal issue with someone close. I have watched this individual fight depression, SI, anxiety, and more... all fueled by the stress of all the sh*t around us. This made me stand back, and take a view at the real big picture. Thinking small is a trivial thing - good job, own nice stuff - who cares!! We live in a frail world. We live in a world where the majority of people don't have a clue. Most people care about the wrong things. All I see around me is propaganda - doesn't anybody out there have something thoughtful and intelligent to talk about?

Enough babbling - I personally want to thank all of you for the insight you provide. I somehow feel close to a lot of you - despite any age differences. I used to think that age mattered. Not anymore.

A soul doesn't have an age - it just exists.

Oh, by the way, isn't this an Opeth messageboard?

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by HoserHellspawn
As a creature who will always percieve reality through the inaccuracies of the human brain, we are and forever will be incapable of seeing "true" reality. It may as well not even be part of "our" universe as we are unable to objectively view it due to the inherent obstructions of an existence filtered through the five senses. To me, this raises the question "why does it matter?". If everything we know is a relative perception, then as far as we are concerned, this reality you speak of will never be of consequence to us... we can never know what this abstract notion is, affect it, take any lessons from it, or have it affect us. The interaction is constant yet meaningless. To follow your analogy, every aspect of the flower is a fabrication of the mind. We see it as having colour and texture and the like and if it doesn't, then what does it matter? If the "truth" or "reality" people speak of is the relative one that they will only ever be able to see, why argue that there's another one that they cannot? Correct or not, it certainly appears less relavent than our interpretive sense of reality, as false as it may be. Which one is actually bullshit as it concerns us? I realize that the mere asking of this question implies further subjectivity and just goes to back your point further, but it's the bias of the only reality that actually exists.

Very cool, you hit the nail on the head exactly! The reality I speak of that we can't see doesn't matter at all. As you say, "what does it matter?" I ask the same question, what does anything at all matter? Why place so much value and energy into this whole bullshit illusion of reality? Why take it seriously in the deepest sense? Why be selfish and self-serving, wha'ts the point? The tale is not anywhere near complete..

What "it" matters is that it shows that what we are isn't really what we think we are and nothing is as it appears. Armed with this knowledge, why would anyone want to explore their biologically fabricated "selves", what's the point? I can relate to people who want to explore their humanity through anthropological means and discovering what makes them tick from that angle.. it's all so obvious anyway, but the serious self-analytical stuff that most people do on themselves all the time is, I feel, driving them nuts and leading them further from understanding. But hey, whatever floats your boat, I'm just speaking of one possible helpful way of viewing reality.

"It" matters as well to people who go through their whole lives miserable with their minds spinning all the time and creating internal havoc and causing them undue stress/anxiety. This is the "human" angle to what I'm saying and the whole point of it all, all that about the inadequacy of perspective was just to suggest that our normal waken thoughts are something that are quite inaccurate/inconsequential and not to be taken too seriously. When someone starts to view their own thoughts and perspectives with a kinda of non-serious edge, as if they are watching a movie or something then it takes a lot of the pressure off just being alive. Instead of being just being players in life, they are spectators too and so life becomes the silly soap opera that it actually is and it's easier to accept whatever life throws at them. It allows for people to be who they really are rather than who they think they should be, and I feel this makes for happier and more productive individuals who don't suffer the same extent of metal suffering. By 'waking up' to the fact that we are just mindless interactions in universal flux, we are freed from the binds of our own perspectives, which is called existentialism. Since you understand this hoser, and probably have always understood it, I don't think you go through life with the same sense of fear and panic and seriousness that is rampant in our societies, just a hunch.

Having such a view point of reality helps the individual in other ways as well, but the reduction of mental suffering is the primary benefit. If one is always thinking "I am everything" then it creates a sense of compassion that is beyond the concept of 'giving' or some crap like that. Being selfless means you are not greedy and just as concerned for the well beings of others, everyone, as you are for yourself. This is not the same as being giving or nice or whatever cuz in these things the focus is on self and is for selfish gain (ie the joy of giving and acceptance or whatever). Imagine if everyone thought like that, going around negating their own egos and always feeling unified and one with everything, it would be amazing. But instead people are going around with their minds spinning about nonsense like "god" or "afterlife" or "the real me" which isn't all that important when you consider it's just illusory interpretive bullshit, like everything. They feel confused and disjointed and they spend their whole lives seeking to understand.. understand WHAT exactly? What's to understand? Everything we need to know is right in front of us right now and there really is nothing more to find. If you find something then it is akin to seeing a shade of yellow you never saw before, it doesn't really or truely matter. I'm not suggesting we don't think these things, I'm saying we just place too much importance in them and it leads to an unhealthy state of mind. People can get themselves so wrapped up in thoughts and drive themselves nuts.

I think humanity should be ruled by unified logic instead of all this disjointed selfish subject-object stuff. I think true logic must be as objective and informed as possible. I think that learning to look without so much bias leads to more beneficial, balanced, and logical interpretations of reality, inherently false as they may be, but at least they aren't based in someone getting a bigger piece of pie or some religious shiester trying to finanacially sodomize the stupid or something like that. Greed and selfishness suck ass. I think all this has a benefit to the species as a whole, that we suffer less, do more "good", and operate more as a team rather than always competing and selfishly hurting each other. The good of individuals and humanity is the whole point.

I find peple generally treat each other like crap and are generally very mean and selfish and lacking in basic humanity. If we could all look into each others eyes and see ourselves staring back, then the world would be a much nicer place, don't you think? And that is why 'it' matters so very much to me, cuz I feel existentialsim brings about this sense of selflessness with brings about the type of love and compassion that could change ourselves and our societies for the better. We really can't help the fact that we are human with thoughts, but we may as well enjoy the show! Some people feel this can be achieved by a thorough investigation of "self", however, I feel this would only serve to deepend the illusion of self and make it much harder for one to think and act selflessly.

Invalidity of perspective => self/thought/ego negation => more direct experience => selflessness => unified love and compassion => better lives and better world. I'm talking about the whole 'enlightenment' thing, a lable I hate however.

Feeling disjointed leads to self-examination which makes the person more self-aware which does nothing for selflessness and causes them to suffer more. Self-awareness = suffering (another tale of reason).

Again, I realize how weird this must sound. I'm a freak.

Satori

This is just a way of looking at it of course.

 

[Autumn Rust]

Satori (and others who would like to join the conversation)

By 'waking up' to the fact that we are just mindless interactions in universal flux, we are freed from the binds of our own perspectives, which is called existentialism. Since you understand this hoser, and probably have always understood it, I don't think you go through life with the same sense of fear and panic and seriousness that is rampant in our societies, just a hunch.

Having such a view point of reality helps the individual in other ways as well, but the reduction of mental suffering is the primary benefit. If one is always thinking "I am everything" then it creates a sense of compassion that is beyond the concept of 'giving' or some crap like that. Being selfless means you are not greedy and just as concerned for the well beings of others, everyone, as you are for yourself. This is not the same as being giving or nice or whatever cuz in these things the focus is on self and is for selfish gain (ie the joy of giving and acceptance or whatever). Imagine if everyone thought like that, going around negating their own egos and always feeling unified and one with everything, it would be amazing. But instead people are going around with their minds spinning about nonsense like "god" or "afterlife" or "the real me" which isn't all that important when you consider it's just illusory interpretive bullshit, like everything. They feel confused and disjointed and they spend their whole lives seeking to understand.. understand WHAT exactly?

I see where you are coming from (I think.. he heheh)... not worrying about the trivial bullshit that makes us concentrate on the patterns on the road instead of the way the road is going, and just being able to enjoy the view while we walk instead of being kneeled down to the ground trying to study it, looking for what we don't (NEED to) know. Cause as you said, just enjoying the side-show while we selflessly walk will bring the experience we need.

Though I do disagree on something. Well, this is just my perspective of it to be more exact.

I don't think we are mindless interactions in the universal soup as you said. I do view myself as a separate entity with a will of my own (and a greater sub-conscious one which ties me to everything).. but also as a part of the whole, which gives me that sense of selflessness. So I think that concentrating on yourself is necessary sometimes and not wrong... because I think everything has a use, which when used with balance and in an evolutionary manner cannot harm.
Now let me explain. Science has recently discovered that everything we see is an illusion. the material world as we know it is a farce. It really is just a mass of energy vibrating at lower and higher frequencies (higher energy frequencies being more volatile therefore gaseous like, and the lower more solid as they are slower, therefore giving the illusion of solidness and separation etc.) and with different structures enabling the light to reflect from it in each individual manner and create the other illusion of colour.
So whats this got to do with it? well it prooves that perspectives are just illusions. And back to what both you guys said.. what does it matter then if this is all an illusion? what DOES matter?
And thinking about what does 'really matter' I wonder what makes the mass of energy do what it does... (because WE are part of that mass and we all function according to the same universal laws <gravity, hate, lover, karma etc> so in that I can find myself and everyone else... or should I say 'ALL' without any separation in terms of entity) I also wonder what is it doing? Why is it there? This done in vain of refining my perspective to home down the 'essence'... which explains that instinct people have and are using to search for 'it' even though they don't know what it is... because in finding it they may be able to reunite themselves with the 'whole' and feel free of that eternal pressure of searching and finally be able to live and enjoy lifes and death pleasures.

So... did that kinda make sense? lol.. well it does to me anyway.. and also one more thing. Do you think you can answer those questions I have put forward? I can say I've finally found the answer and have gained that freedom (which me Protocol and Hoser discussed in another thread, the 'drugs' one I think..) which makes life seem so much nicer and you be nicer to life... and death.

Though now I still search which is quite ironic.... but for something else as I've already found the 'prima materia'....

I'll leave you with this quote that I like:

We are the MACROcosm fooling ourselves to beLIEve we are the microCOSM.

ps: How come it is that I've never found this depth of thought with any other bbs crew before? I've been called insane by many while 'trying' to throw this quality of stone into the pool of water. I'm glap Opeth's music has brought us so called 'freaks' together.

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by Autumn Rust
Satori (and others who would like to join the conversation)
I see where you are coming from (I think.. he heheh)... not worrying about the trivial bullshit that makes us concentrate on the patterns on the road ... etc....

ps: How come it is that I've never found this depth of thought with any other bbs crew before? I've been called insane by many while 'trying' to throw this quality of stone into the pool of water. I'm glap Opeth's music has brought us so called 'freaks' together.

Ok, quite cool, I know exactly where you are coming from and I can see that you have that innate understanding of what I'm trying to communicate, selflessness and it's benefits on the human psyche.

When there is no "self" there is no selfish desire. Without desire there is no suffering. I could go into elaborate detail about why this is so, but there's no need. Suffice to say that the universe exists in a state of constant flux. Either we go along with the flux, adapting ourselves and using the change as a spring board, redirecting it in the path we want it to go, or we sit around being miserable and cursing the world and doing nothing to change our circumstances. I choose the former of course. Without elaborating, I'll make another conclusive statement which is built on logic that I can discuss if required: Resisting the flow of reality causes suffering and failure, going with it brings joy and success regardless of the outcome of events. By being selfless we are better able to adapt to the universe's constant flow of change and better able to redirect it to our advantage (and I don't mean selfish advantage).

You mentioned that you don't agree that we are just mindless interactions in universal flux. Well, I feel what you don't like about this idea is just the way it was put into words. You understand that we are a part of everything and you understand the invalidity of your own perspective. Understanding these things kinda makes it hard for you to disagree with the mere presentation of ideas. In short, I am you and you are me and we both realize this already and there is nothing to disagree about, don't you think? I can pick my own words apart and find something to disagree with too, no problem, but it's the essence of the words, not their literal interpretation, that's the real meat of it, and you so obviously see the essence of what I'm saying perfectly, something which makes me very happy. You understand the limitation of relativistic language, need I say more? Your brief explanation of the human condition mirrors mine perfectly. Of course we are more than mindless interactions, but we are also mindless interactions, either way you say it the effect is the same, it's a paradox and I see "truth" in both viewpoints, that's the nature of selflessness and existentialism, you can hold 2 contradictory perspectives and know that they are both equally valid. Is it a particle, or is it a wave? Yes. heheh

Here's how I feel about the phenomenon known as consciousness. I feel that in our brains matter has come together is amazing organization, and this organization (as Darwin would contend) has 'created' something called consciousness. To me this is akin to hydrogen in massive quantities together with gravity creating nuclear fusion. Fusion is a consequence of the compressed gas just as mind is a consequence of matter in organization. Compressed gas didn't 'create' fusion, the propensity for fusion and it's dynamics are part of the universe, and fusion is just an expression of universal flux. Likewise, matter in organization (the brain) didn't 'create' consciousness, consciousnes (like fusion) was there when the universe began and it's just an expression of universal flux, and in this case, unlike in the case of fusion, we are that expression. Whether or not you place the lable "mindless interaction" on it doesn't change this. I'm sure you feel that mind and fusion are more similar than different. We are just toying with words here, hehe.

I agree that we have to exist in both states at once, that is, feeling connected and part of the soup and at the same feeling human and distinct. The reason I talk about the former so much is cuz the latter is something that humans and all other animals do by default. I didn't mean to diminish the value of being and behaving like a distinct human, I just feel like everyone is already good at playing that angle and don't need to hear about it, so I tend to concentrate on the soup idea. It really takes that balance. If we thought only in terms of the soup, then we'd may as well lay down and die right now. But when we exist in the balance of the 2, we can be humans and yet act unselfishly together as a species and with the rest of the world as well, so the electron can be both a particle (individual) and a wave (part of the soup). Unfortunately, as lowly humans we are incapable of seeing both realities at the same time, so we have to think in terms of dualism. However, electrons are not particles or waves, these are just interpretations of humans and are only consequential in the confines of our thoughts. Likewise, humans are neither individuals or the soup, it's just how we explain it in this dualistic and discrminating language. I'm trying to get at the "whole" which is beyond the individual or the soup, the point where the electron is neither a particle or a wave, it simply IS.

I agree with you as well that most people will never understand what the hell we are talking about here and I'm also intrigued that I've found people here that I can relate to. Trying to explain existentialism to someone who can't see the forest for the trees is a totally pointless task, you may as well try to explain a new colour or something, it sits just beyond the grasp of reason. I've come to the conclusion that it's just a way of thinking that is inborn, either you get it and always have, though you may have fogetten and remembered along the way, or you simply don't think along those lines and never will. Again, this is neither right or wrong, it's just all perspective bullshit. I just happen to feel, as many do, that such a perspective is good for mental and societal health. Some may feel praising god is good for mind and society, but to them I ask, when was the last time existentialists got together and started a war or feared death or lived their lives in guilt while playing out someone else's ideology? Some place "mind" as the god they seek and put so much effort into "finding themselves" or whatever that they are totally ignorant of the soup mentality and cannot reap the benefits of simply letting go and 'being' without pretense or the personal obligations of ego. When we are too focused on the self of the individual, we forget the self of the universe and this leads people to behave in selfish ways. I loved your analogy of people who are kneeled to the ground studying it too closely and how they miss the point/direction of the road. So many smart intellectual types are like this, forever studying themselves so intensely that lose their true face in their skin texture.

I'm glad to see that you realize that you exist in this duality and are enpowered by it, and I thank you sincerely for your insightful post. You and I are an expression of the same universal phenomema, like everything is of course, the only real difference being that we both realize and acknowledge it.

"Thou art that"

in the midst of 'mystical' (unified) experience...

Sacreligious Satori

PS: "Form is emptiness, emptines is form." (buddhist "truth", quantum physics "fact"). Something = Nothing. What is before/beyond the division of something/nothing? That's the 'IT' that I'm eluding to for which words cannot describe.