The world is falling down on me...

[rahvin]

@onyx: not a problem. classical studies in italy mean a lot of old latin (and old greek too ). i understand your mistake since the saying errata corrige (literally, "correct the mistakes") is also fairly popular. however - and then i end it with the boring lessons - the structure of errare humanum est is:

- errare: infinite form of a verb meaning "to err" (duh)
- est: 3rd person of a verb meaning "to be", so "is"
- humanum: masculine nominative form of the adjective meaning "human".

so, "to err is human". i remember there was a king's quest game once called "to heir is human". pun! i pnw you all! erm... anyway.

@the others: pecunia non olet

rahvin.

 

[Siren]

@onyx: not a problem. classical studies in italy mean a lot of old latin (and old greek too ).

i pnw you all!

lol!!!!!!!111111111

 

[Melancholia]

I've writen a loooooong post this afternoon,but in the mean times the forums had logged me off & my reply was lost somewhere in the void of cyberspace

I'll try writing a second one,even though it can never be as good and as long as the previous

First of all,Mousie,I'm sorry you've got into such a diuffcult situation...I hope it well end in the best way possible...... Look,first of all it's not your fault he is in pain,you are not responsible for that.It's very positive that you want to help though.i think that only you can feel if your friend is faking it,at least better from us all,who just judge from a paragraph you wrote,since you are the only who knows how close you've been with that person,you are the one who has talked to him,you are the one who communicates with him.....I think that we are rather judging in a "colder" way here,being suspicious about it (and i guess it is logical for us to do so,since we are not directly involved and since very often suicidal stories combined with internet and other "impersonal" contexts can be dangerous)....

From what i read i agree with Villain..... wonderful post!! I think the advice he posted were very well thoughtout and I guess you should follow them...... I do believe that threats for suicide are serious... I don't agree with the "statistics".I'm sorry,but i think sometimes we take the things we think as the real truth.However,from what i've read and studied people who threat/gives signs for suicide/express suicidal thoughts etc can very well go on and put their plans into practice as well as never do so.... Expressing suicidal thoughts is not always a cry for help,but even if it is i don't see the reason why some people refer to it as it were sth bad.....Of course,some people "use" their suicidal behaviour in order to make their close ones puppets,but also some of them give out this "cry for help" because they really expect they will be helped.....In the very end,i prefer to see this "coward" act from a person i love than having him/her dead
As for people talking about their trouble on the net,i don't find it impossible at all,since the "anonimity" the internet offers can be a very "safe" condition under which people can express their thoughts without being afraid that thay will be discovered/stopped etc by others and generally avoid trouble....Suicide attempts can produce "violent" situations in a family....

I'd also like to say that people with suicidal tendencies are not necessarily mentally ill (bad boy FV ),since people can develop suicidal behaviour under several circumstances,from simple depression to serious mental illnesses like schizofrenia and psychosis... So,i think it is quite bad dragging such violent conclusions without knowing this guy...

Mousie,i hope everything will go in the best way possible. I hope this boy is not faking it,cause it will hurt you deeply and you don't deserve it... I hope it will end in the best way both for him and you....

Take good care of yourself and be strong!
/Melancholia.

 

[Northern Lights]

Cogito ergo doleo.

Magister mundi sum!

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

And last but not least, my personal favourite:
Mater tua criceta fuit, et pater tuo redoluit bacarum sambucus.

Haven't studied latin so I have no idea if these are correct or not... but could be rather useful anyway

@mousewings: all the wise things have already been said by everybody else. I did have a net friend once who was very close to killing himself I believe. He never set any dates or said "I'll do it", but I know he considered it, and for some time everything he said when I talked to him was really a cry for help. What he told me of the situation he had... I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. However, he got through it, and now he's even doing better than me... so there's always hope. For everyone.

 

[mousewings]

Thank you everyone. Every bit of advice here really helps me.

I'm still unsure as to what his intentions are. I'm still unsure if he's depressed and trying to get my attention, is faking (I doubt he is though), or is serious. He may be trying to get my attention and wants me to write him more as he's depressed, as I haven't been writing to him that much recently. Not as a diss though, as I haven't been feeling too good even before this event happened. It makes me feel bad I did this.

I've written back to him yesterday, saying how much he means to me (as he's helped me through a lot), that life could get better, and asking him to promise me not to hurt himself and to get help. I've also followed Villain's advice and refused to give my address, saying I would accept his gift only as a friendship offering, not as a way of remembering him when he's gone. Northern Light's story gives me hope, as he may not do it or be unsuccessful. I also remember another occurance related to this topic which didn't end badly either.

So far he hasn't responded to me. If he still says he's going to go through with it I'm going to find some way to call EMS in my area and see if they can contact authorities in Germany, or at least help me to cope and with what to say to hold him off. Meanwhile, I'm trying to research as much information on him as possible and look up phone numbers for his university, city, etc. I haven't been able to find his family's info, as there are a lot of people with his last name in his hometown. I don't have much "alone time" this week, so I may have to sneak off to be with my friend or to the mall, and then call the proper places from there.

@Incendiare : My sympathies for the loss of your classmate. That's very sad.

Edit: I've now found a few resources on suicide helplines and distress centers (some local and some international), I'm going to give them a try if he isn't going to hold off (forgot to say he mentioned having a suicide pact with someone, but I'm not sure if that's still the case now). Also I've fired off an email to my friend, hopefully arranging a trip to the mall, so I can carry out my plan. Ergh, he still hasn't written back yet, but I still think he's keeping his old plans, and besides, he wants to send me something, so I don't think he's gone through with it yet... hopefully. This is just getting weirder feeling by the minute.

 

[rahvin]

Expressing suicidal thoughts is not always a cry for help,but even if it is i don't see the reason why some people refer to it as it were sth bad.....

because saying something like: 'beware, i'm gonna take my life' has a tendency of getting people off their asses and running all the way from canada to help you. if the core of your message is 'i'm feeling depressed' or 'i have problems, i need help', it seems rather unjust, self-centered and - in my opinion - plain fucking bullshitting your friends to cause such an alarm instead of telling it like it is.
the intention of manipulating the others makes it even worse, but even if it's not there, it's still a sign that you can't hold your shit together, which is something i personally tend to deplore.

As for people talking about their trouble on the net,i don't find it impossible at all,since the "anonimity" the internet offers can be a very "safe" condition under which people can express their thoughts without being afraid that thay will be discovered/stopped etc by others and generally avoid trouble....

anonimity? but he's given her his full name.
aside from that, i thought being able to talk about your issues with long-distance friends was a rather good sign...

I'd also like to say that people with suicidal tendencies are not necessarily mentally ill (bad boy FV ),since people can develop suicidal behaviour under several circumstances,from simple depression to serious mental illnesses like schizofrenia and psychosis... So,i think it is quite bad dragging such violent conclusions without knowing this guy...

this is very subjective depending on your idea of a mental illness. it might be argued that the desire to kill oneself is so unnatural that it has to derive from a pathological suffering of sorts, but i can already hear legions of blacker-than-black users rebutting that they have all entertained suicidal thoughts at some point in their short life, so - being in the minority - i refrain from supporting this point of view

rahvin.

 

[Melancholia]

a quick reply

Mousewings@ I think it is good that you wrote to him and also good that you looked for some help,support for both of you etc. I'd only advise you to be a bit careful with your address and your too personal info,because still you can never know...Have strength!!

because saying something like: 'beware, i'm gonna take my life' has a tendency of getting people off their asses and running all the way from canada to help you. if the core of your message is 'i'm feeling depressed' or 'i have problems, i need help', it seems rather unjust, self-centered and - in my opinion - plain fucking bullshitting your friends to cause such an alarm instead of telling it like it is.
the intention of manipulating the others makes it even worse, but even if it's not there, it's still a sign that you can't hold your shit together, which is something i personally tend to deplore..

whether you will get off your ass and run all the way from canada to help somebody or not is a personal decision.I don't think anyone of us is a puppet.I guess people on our ages can decide if it is worth doing so and how far it is worth going for some person depending on how close we are to him/her,so I guess and hope mousie knows why she's doing what she is doing.I am aware though that sometimes you can get deceived which is terrible of course.
I'm not trying to say that "cry for help" is a supercool thing and that the people who do it,do well.i was just saying that usually depressed people are in such a confused state of mind that they can't express themselves clearly,so in some cases no matter how annoying it can be to see it happening to you,talking more objectively and concentrating on the person who gives it out a cry for help can be positive. Imagine if it happened to a person you love.Would you find it so annoying??? and even if yes,which is still acceptable,i doubt you would just show contempt for his/her acts and ignore him/her.Everything is relative...
As for the cases where people use their symptoms of any kind in order to gain sth,I completely agree with you that it's a crap and i tend to get annoyed by such people...

anonimity? but he's given her his full name.
aside from that, i thought being able to talk about your issues with long-distance friends was a rather good sign....

I used the term "anonimity" in an abstract way.Sure,she knows his full name, but does mousie know any other people of his close family?any friends of his? can she have any control of his life from where she is? NO and if not NO,VERY LITTLE. This is why i said internet offers anonimity.One can go and express himself and feel quite secure that people won't mix in his life.To make sth clear: "without being afraid that thay will be discovered/stopped etc by others and generally avoid trouble....", in this sentence "others" refers to the close family of the person,to teachers and generally people who are physically close to him and thus can interfere in some way. Imagine the following sentences "Mum,hello,I feel i want to commit suicide today", "hello netpal,i feel like commiting suicide today".In which case is it more possible that people will try to stop me and also disagree with my decision and even react in "violent" ways (not all families react logically in listening such words,one can very well end up in a hospital/mental clinic with his mouth full of tranquilizers...and that's some people feel safer when they talk with people who can't help them directly.

As for talking with your long-distance friends about your trouble,i never considered it something bad...it's rather good.

this is very subjective depending on your idea of a mental illness. it might be argued that the desire to kill oneself is so unnatural that it has to derive from a pathological suffering of sorts, but i can already hear legions of blacker-than-black users rebutting that they have all entertained suicidal thoughts at some point in their short life, so - being in the minority - i refrain from supporting this point of view

Sure,there are many ways of viewing mental illness and for sure suicidal thoughts it's sth pathological,since it is improbable that you'll have them if you feel content with your life etc. BUT,labeling in the same way a person who has a simple and easily cured psychological disorder (f.i. a phobia) and somebody who has psychosis and is practically lost in his own world of delusions is quite unfair and dangerous, since the words "mental illness" are followed by horrible stereotipes. We know nothing about this guy,maybe he is supernuts,maybe he is just a normal person.I was just trying to view things in a general and more wide way.

To all of you,i'm not supporting the guy,nor i think that suicidal people are cool or whatever.Nor prompting mousie to run and help him blind.On the contrary,i suggest she should be extra careful,having all possible outcomes on her mind,estimating what's worth for her and what's not, cause i think it is what should be done before taking a decision regarding such "dark matters".It's just that studying what i'm studying i've learnt to be a bit more careful and not throwing dangerous verdicts here and there.If i had a closer look in this incident, probably i could say sth more concrete, but so far i find what is happening quite "normal",a story that can happen. Yet,2 things worry me:
his constant giving exact dates which doesn't make sense unless these dates are so important to him,which i doubt and this suicide pact mousewings has just mentioned.what exactly is a suicide pact???? if it is what i think it gets me worried....

Ok,i'll shut up,since i have to go on with my project writing

 

[rahvin]

whether you will get off your ass and run all the way from canada to help somebody or not is a personal decision.I don't think anyone of us is a puppet.I guess people on our ages can decide if it is worth doing so and how far it is worth going for some person depending on how close we are to him/her,

definitely. yet i think it's safe to say i'm more prone to run if i get the impression someone's about to take his life than if i get the impression someone's about to spend the night crying. that's precisely because we tend to appreciate life a lot more than avoiding to have a bad day, which is in turn something that anyone pulling the suicide card must be aware of. so the consequences are pretty much known to the would-be suicider, who's well aware he could count on many people's feelings that even a remote chance to save one life is worth going through some trouble.

i was just saying that usually depressed people are in such a confused state of mind that they can't express themselves clearly,so in some cases no matter how annoying it can be to see it happening to you,talking more objectively and concentrating on the person who gives it out a cry for help can be positive.

you're the one working in the field, but i'm not sure i buy the mental image of extremely distressed people having no idea of what they're saying talking about suicide on day x, last wishes, suicide pacts, afterthoughts and such. i'd understand your reasoning if we were talking about someone who's acting on a whim, like "i just lost my job, i'm calling a friend overseas to tell her i can't go on like this anymore", but this is clearly not the case.

Imagine if it happened to a person you love.Would you find it so annoying??? and even if yes,which is still acceptable,i doubt you would just show contempt for his/her acts and ignore him/her.

of course i would find it annoying. and of course i would run for help. as for contempt, i say there wouldn't be more than a couple of situations where i would think the person is worthy of my pity. surely i would really not have a good opinion of that individual from that moment on.

I used the term "anonimity" in an abstract way.Sure,she knows his full name, but does mousie know any other people of his close family?any friends of his? can she have any control of his life from where she is? NO and if not NO,VERY LITTLE. This is why i said internet offers anonimity.One can go and express himself and feel quite secure that people won't mix in his life.To make sth clear: "without being afraid that thay will be discovered/stopped etc by others and generally avoid trouble....",

i hope you see this also applies to telling wild stories about your imminent suicide. your net friends can't just check your claims and verify that you're not just being depressed because your gerbil died.

In which case is it more possible that people will try to stop me

but i thought you said if you said it it's because you want to be stopped...? a cry for help and all that?

his constant giving exact dates which doesn't make sense unless these dates are so important to him,which i doubt

maybe they are, they could be connected to a traumatic event. either a real or imaginary event, that is.

and this suicide pact mousewings has just mentioned.what exactly is a suicide pact???? if it is what i think it gets me worried....

shouldn't it be when two or more people decide that at a given date they all commit suicide?
again, this only makes the whole thing look even harder to believe...

rahvin.

 

[hyena]

i concur with what almost everyone said: people who kill themselves normally don't say so beforehand, especially to people they barely know. the scary part for you, mousewings, is that probably the guy will disappear into nothingness on the due date for his suicide, so you'll be able to think he's killed himself even if he's still alive, kicking and presumably reading ootp (i know that's what i will be doing next week). i think that it's highly likely you don't hear from him any more after the set date: people prone to such histrionics normally want high drama, and they must be thrilled with the internet because it allows them to make people believe they are dead - rahve and me stumbled upon one such case on a mailing list some time ago. normally, in real life, they'll have you believe that their boyfriend or their family is dead, but hey, can you resist the temptation of being the dear departed yourself and read all the mourning messages on the place where you normally go online? that's the ultimate ego trip (.com). by the way, if you need tracking down, drop me a message. i'm good at that.

 

[Siren]

it gets more weird by the minute i guess, esp for mousewings..

two things i want to say:
a) if this guy really kills himself, perhaps there could be a way to find out, given that the information he's provided is real.
b) mousewings, don't feel guilty or responsible for this, no matter what.

siren

PS: the pact thing sounds terribly silly and suspicious.. also, just now it comes to my mind that mouse mentioned that he said "i'll suicide coz you don't talk to me anymore" or smt in that vein? i don't know, but i'm starting to be very sceptical about this :Smug:

 

[rahvin]

also, just now it comes to my mind that mouse mentioned that he said "i'll suicide coz you don't talk to me anymore" or smt in that vein?

i'm a very patient and happy dwarf but i think i'd want to personally mutilate someone who would resort to this, regardless of his personal problems.

and there's time for one more rant for me before i go to sleep (indulge me).
i have never been abused as a child. i have never lost any of my parents or a brother or sister. i've never been beaten black and blue, or used and thrown away by selfish girlfriends. i've spent a normal childhood and i've grown up without apparent traumas keeping me down or anything.
i respect and look in awe at those who actually went through any of the above: i won't be able to understand your pain ever.
still, there's way too many people just playing the troubled and molested and lonely out there. those i know have actually been through hell hardly ever mention it and they surely don't go around waving suicide flag or assuming the whole word owes them for some reason.
those who do think that the world owes them for some reason are much more often disgusting assholes who revel in self-pity without having a single thing to show for it.
just look at this board: have you ever read those who have really gone through hardships complaining and whining on and on? i could name some who did went through hardships and never complained, never whined, but i'm sure you all can too. and they are worthy of my outmost respect for their bravery.

rahvin.

 

[mousewings]

To clear things up: he never said he would kill himself if I ignored him. I just thought that he may have made the suicide annoucement as he was depressed and I haven't been writing to him or anyone else for a long time.

The "suicide pact" is his plan to commit suicide along with a friend of his, as "a show of support" for her. He just wrote back to me and is saying he's still going through with his plans. Also told me not to contact his parents. He says he's going to write them a letter beforehand explaining his reasons, like it would make any difference to them. This is discouraging. For the address, he said it was my choice to give him my address/contact or not, as he wants to send me two CDs. So my refusal of my address as a delaying method is shot down. This really disturbs me.

He also said that if I loved him (as a friend), I'd let him do this and that he'd wait for me in the afterlife. That's quite a twisted thought and I believe he should be woken up. I can't find contacts for his family, so I'm going to contact an international suicide after I write this and hope they can help, wheither this is real or not. If they can't help, I'm going to call a local place for help or at least councilling on how to cope and hopefully my phone line is going to be fixed by then. If this place also can't help, I'm done for as I don't even know how to read German phone numbers and can't call long distance from here. Wish me luck, I'll need it.

 

[rahvin]

I don't even know how to read German phone numbers and can't call long distance from here.

i'm sure someone here can help you with both, if it comes to that.

rahvin.

 

[HarmonyDies....]

He's not going to do it. I've never heard of a suicide victim planning their dates, unless they were in a cult. I think he just wants attention.

 

[Kovenant84]

Hrm...

Whatever happens, Mouse, I have to agree with everyone here that you should not hold yourself responsible for it. I also have to agree with Harmony and the others that this is just a stunt. I don't believe that he'll actually go through with it. I don't have any authority to talk on this subject, but thats just my impression.

~Kovenant

 

[Villain]

Iris: I'll email you once my hangover is gone - just wait for a while...

He's not going to do it. I've never heard of a suicide victim planning their dates, unless they were in a cult. I think he just wants attention.

This thought has also been mentioned by many others here. I could argue against this based on examples from real life (ie. I know / have known people who have planned their suicide-attempts and mentioned about them to some people beforehand and then made one - it's also not unheard of in actual literature about the subject), but I will just repeat my main point: if our aim is to help Mousewings here, pondering whether or not he is in it for real is rather pointless. We can well discuss the statistical figures of suiciders and our personal experiences with suicidal people and compare them to this case, but I don't feel that it would help her much, if at all.

There has been many good suggestions for Mousewings here and I hope we are really helping her, but if we keep sticking to this topic of whether or not he is faking, the good ideas might easily "drown" in the ocean of arguments about his possible "real" intentions. She appears to be well aware of the chance that he might be faking, so repeating it is pointless, IMHO.

-Villain (with an annoying headache)

 

[FatherVic]

He's not going to do it. I've never heard of a suicide victim planning their dates, unless they were in a cult. I think he just wants attention.

didn't the guys from the denver massacre some years ago say it openly on their website????
and they weren't much in a "cult", sect or any other insanity spreader device!

fathervic (afraid of King Jeremy The Wicked)

 

[rahvin]

didn't the guys from the denver massacre some years ago say it openly on their website????
and they weren't much in a "cult", sect or any other insanity spreader device!

public and/or multiple theorization of mass suicide or murder sounds a lot like a cult to me, despite the lack of religious innuendos - which to a point were there in the case in point anyway - or a banner saying "warning: sect".

rahvin.

 

[FatherVic]

public and/or multiple theorization of mass suicide or murder sounds a lot like a cult to me, despite the lack of religious innuendos - which to a point were there in the case in point anyway - or a banner saying "warning: sect".

rahvin.

well, I wouldn't consider two guys who are simply filled with anger and rage and just want to finish with all, taking as many lives as they can with them (either because of madness or whatever) a cult nor a sect.
I mean, no purpose, not even claiming anything...just saying "we're fed up, you die" that's all!

I don't expect a banner...not even a discrete badge...but at least some kind of motto, or ar least trying to gain some more people to make the holocaust bigger...not just claiming their lives as a vengance for a lifetime of laughter...

 

[rahvin]

@fathervic: murder is however quite different. you're going to be very explicit when you kill someone anyway, so you might as well get the most of it. i agree that it should not be considered a cult as such, but you have to agree this is not just any suicide, nor a suicide pact.

rahvin.