The World Trade Center, in New York, was just Kamikazied by airplanes!

[Protocol]

Glad to see you on a better side of your temper gotham.

>My opinion is that arguments about US foreign policy right
>now (stress on now) is not the way to do this.

But I disagree. There is no more important time than now to discuss u.s foreign policy. Such a powerful governement must not be allowed to act un-scrutinized when the prospect is war. Neither must nato, or any of the other nations involved.

>PS: Linux is a great development, but give me Half-Life any
>day and who created that?

Pity half-life is a game and not a utility. ;D

 

[Sullen Jester]

I know I'm going a bit over-the-top here, but anyway:


The Murderers of NATO, Slobodan Milosevic and Yugoslavia
Posted By: Eddie Stratton
Date: Thursday, 5 October 2000, at 4:56 a.m.
Upated: Sunday, 28 January 2001
Here is a reply I wrote to a guy talking about how dreadfully undemocratic Slobodan Milosevic is being in Yugoslavia:

With regard to the situation in former Yugoslavia, right now Milosevic is not acting democratically, if he ever did. I am not an apologist for Milosevic; I think ALL leaders are criminals. But if you only looked at the body count, it is clear that Clinton has murdered many thousands more than Milosevic, and Blair is a much bigger liar, murderer and criminal than Slobodan.

To work out what all the unrest in the Balkans is all about, you have to go back to the 80’s when the US-controlled International Monetary Fund went into former Yugoslavia. Although the IMF was put together back in the 1940’s to help rebuild countries destroyed by the Second World War, it has lost that role today, and instead is used to force countries to embrace capitalism and fall under the control of America. The IMF destroyed the economy of Yugoslavia at the behest of the United States. In fact, the words used by the US Government at the time were that they needed to ‘destabilize’ Yugoslavia’s economy, to instigate a ‘quiet revolution’, so that the country could be ‘opened up to free market principles’. This is all doublespeak, and it actually means that the USA and its corporate buddies wanted the resources in Yugoslavia, and using the IMF as a major player, they decided to divide up those resources among corporate power.

Resources in Yugoslavia are unbelievably rich. They have huge resources, including the Trepca mining complex, which is worth billions before you even start digging. It sits on massive mineral deposits, zinc, coal, gold - in fact, some of the biggest tracts of raw materials on the planet!

The trouble was, Milosevic wasn’t in the mood to bow down to the USA - and so the Yugoslav resources including those at Trepca, weren't finding their way to the people who the US Government thinks should really benefit. Naturally, the guy Uncle Sam thinks should benefit from Yugoslavian wealth is Uncle Sam.

So the masters of the ‘free world’ devised a plan to take Yugoslavia’s wealth, and make it look legitimate. In actuality, the US and the UK just waged economic warfare against the population of Yugoslavia for the benefit of private profit. First they attacked with the intervention of the ‘Bretton Woods organizations’, which comprise of the IMF, the World Bank and the World Trade Organization. Of course, under such pressure, the economy started to buckle, and in just one year, the wage of the average man dropped by an incredible 41%...

Milosevic, desperately trying to hold on to power in the face of impending financial disaster and a populace drowning under economic desperation, did what all leaders do when they are threatened. He found a scapegoat. When a country undergoes too much pressure, the society tears apart. A society will always tear apart at the weakest seams, and so Milosevic, frightened at the prospect of facing the rage of the population, re-directed their anger, trying to set the people against each other instead of against him. He did this by manipulating centuries of ethnic wounds. This strategy was not entirely effective, Yugoslav society was not actually fragmenting under ethnic tensions, and so the media in the west just pretended it was.

The forces of the obedient Western media staged an effective PR attack. They made up stories of ‘ethnic cleansing’, and ‘rape camps’ in Serbia. These lies were repeated all over the capitalist world, and lurid horror stories of ethnic cleansing abounded on both sides of the Atlantic. Tellingly, after the NATO bombing campaign, the FBI and Scotland Yard went to Yugoslavia to investigate these allegations but they found no mass graves, and no evidence of an ethnic tragedy, but true to form, this was not mentioned in the newspapers! Although there are ethnic tensions in the region, and these were heightened by the economic warfare waged by the west, there was no large-scale ethnic catastrophe, only the economic and military catastrophe caused by our leaders in the UK and the US.

Just to illustrate how heavily propagandized we have been, the biggest single act of ethnic cleansing which occurred in former Yugoslavia was actually perpetrated by a joint force of Croatian and American military. The forces of so-called ‘democracy’ ethnically cleansed nearly half a million innocent Serbian civilians.

But the opposite story proliferated through our media - our governments needed to show that Slobodan Milosevic was the ‘New Hitler’. So they invented an ethnic cleansing crisis of holocaust proportions.

The real scene was this. In the year prior to the NATO attack in the spring of 1999, there were a total of 2000 people killed in Kosovo, that’s the total for all sides of the ethnic divide. That makes it about as bloody as, say, Atlanta. So How come NATO didn’t go and bomb Atlanta too?

How about this for a double standard: Turkey is a member state of NATO, and Turkey participated in the attack on Yugoslavia. Turkey has a track record of ethnic cleansing - if we want to talk about a racial tragedy, then how about the 3500 Kurdish villages the Turkish State has destroyed? How about the tens of thousands of Kurds exterminated in Turkey's campaign of extermination and genocide? Compare this to the toll of 2000 evenly spread on all sides of a low intensity guerilla war, and compared to Yugoslavia Turkey looks very bad indeed.

So if we look at the real history which our media ignores, the reason we went into the Balkans can’t be about human rights, can it? Maybe it was about money… What do you think? After all, if our governments cared so much about human rights, they wouldn't still be imprisoning refugees just for daring to seek asylum. They wouldn't be dismantling the welfare state and the National Health Service. They wouldn't be forcing people out of their homes and jobs. They wouldn't be building domes until they housed all the homeless.

And so NATO went to war. Here’s a double cross for you: prior to the NATO bombardment of Yugoslavia, the US told Milosevic he had to 'negotiate' or they would attack. The USA handed Milosevic a copy of their demands - which were outlined in a document called the Rambouillet agreement.

This demand effectively said that Milosevic should hand Yugoslavia over to the Americans. Just give Yugoslavia to the USA. Let us have your entire country, no strings attached. Of course, Milosevic rejected that as an absurd and transparent case of bullying. He was quite right, because that is precisely what Rambouillet was.

After Milosevic rejected the Rambouillet accord, the media presented this to the people of NATO member countries like this:

"Milosevic rejected Rambouillet. He refuses to negotiate. Diplomacy was tried, and Milosevic refused to even talk about it. We must seek peace through military means."

(Notice that Orwellian idea of ‘seeking peace through military means’! How is waging war searching for peace?)

So, NATO attacked a sovereign nation, in open defiance of the UN, and in doing so, our leaders broke International Law and committed crimes against peace, and crimes against humanity. The UN was defied, because the leaders of NATO knew that they wouldn’t ever get the green light to attack a country, which was no threat to any other country.

So for a whole month the US and the UK dropped nuclear weapons on Yugoslavia and Kosovo. I am not kidding. NATO used depleted uranium shells, which they ‘tested’ on the population of Iraq, and by extension on their own soldiers through the effects of fallout, in the Gulf War in 1991. What do you think Gulf War Syndrome is? It’s now beyond any reasonable doubt that this is radiation sickness. Similar to the war zone in Iraq, Kosovo is now a poisonous landscape, with an enormous increase in cancers and infant mutations. NATO ‘saved’ the people by dropping nukes on them. How does that curious contradiction work? And so, Milosevic ‘surrendered’, and NATO took the prize, the resources of Kosovo, for the corporate elite.

So, while nobody could accuse Milosevic of acting democratically, take a look closer to home to see if we in the west have any more democracy. Just a couple of examples of anti-democracy in the UK, the miners were tortured by paramilitary police, and then Thatcher stopped only a hair short from making unions illegal for daring to stand up for their rights. That is not in the slightest bit democratic. Thatcher re-armed Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge during the 80's, and the British SAS trained death squads in Singapore.

The UK and the USA’s history of foreign policy reads like the imperial expansionism of Hitler's Third Reich. Where people elect a popular socialist, NATO bombs them.

For example, Greece elected a popular leader on the left, and so the US invaded them - you are free to choose the leader you want, provided it is the correct one!

Another one - Chile elected a socialist called Allende in 1971, who immediately put in programs for the poor, for women, healthcare, education programs, but of course the USA can't make money from socialism, and so they had Allende murdered. The CIA and the ITT corporation moved in and installed General Augusto Pinochet, who killed over thirty thousand people in the first few months of his dictatorship.

The forces of ‘democracy’ installed one of the most brutal torturers and murderers the world has yet seen. At the time, totally dismissive of a free and fair election, US Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, arrogantly declared:

"We cannot afford to let a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people".

Don't think this is some kind of ‘exception’. This habit of causing the destruction of democracy, followed by the installation or support of a fascistic dictatorship, is very much routine and business as usual, and it has happened over a dozen times since WW2, and has been deliberate and central to US foreign policy over the last 55 years. Socialism has never been permitted by our leaders to rise or fall under its own merits.

So back to Yugoslavia - the NATO attack was about corporate profit. It was about invading a country for the resources that country has to give us. If we compare the ‘democracy’ of Yugoslavia under Milosevic to the ‘democracy’ of Blair and Clinton, it is crystal clear which side looks like the ‘New Hitler’.

So - the mainstream media. Should we trust it?

You know the answer to that one already... but to show you just how corrupt and obedient to power the mainstream media is, here is a quote from the one-time editor of the most powerful newspaper in the world, the New York Times.

He is telling us the truth about what the MEDIA are all about. So bear this in mind when you are reading the papers or watching the news...

Here’s John Swainton, editor of the New York Times, being frighteningly candid on the day of his retirement, addressing his staff.


"There is no such things as a free press, you know it and I know it. There is not one of you who would dare to write his honest opinion.
"The business of a journalist is to destroy truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, fall at the feet of mammon, and sell himself for his daily bread.

"We are tools, vessels of rich men behind the scenes, we are jumping jacks. They pull the strings - we dance. Our talents, our possibilities, and our lives are the properties of these men.

"We are intellectual prostitutes"

Cheers for reading!

Ed

There... it's not the whole history of mankind, but its about what the USA did to Yugoslavia, Kosovo etc. etc.


Later all..
Be nice.

Sullen

 

[Sullen Jester]

Oh, and I forgot this one:

Title: Doublespeak
Author: Eddie Stratton
Date Added: 3 October 2000
Updated: 28 November 2000
I was doing a bit of reading recently, I found something which I thought more of you might like to read, which will help you in understanding how the media and the government lies to us in order to manipulate us.

I found this today. I was reading a book by media analyst and propaganda expert Edward S. Herman earlier today. This guy is amazing - he cuts through the lies by defining them!

His book, 'Beyond Hypocrisy - Decoding the News in an Age of Propaganda', includes a 'doublespeak dictionary' which is vital if you want to understand what the news is really about. This dictionary is basically a bunch of translations of government bullshit and media propaganda.

Before I go on, for those of you unfamiliar with George Orwell's 1984, (which is not just recommended, it is vital), 'Doublespeak' is the action of using inherently contradictory terms, the misuse of words for propaganda by redefinition. Basically speaking, it is the art of verbal manipulation.

So when the US invades a country, (and there are loads of examples of US invasions - check out William Blum’s book ‘Killing Hope’ for a complete list), the media is full of manipulation to make it look like they are doing the opposite. Certainly, any wrongdoing is edited right out of the equation...

Compare the language - in 1991, Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, and was called the New Hitler by the media. When George Bush invaded Panama, this action was called ‘Operation Just Cause’. The US invasion of Grenada was called a ‘vertical insertion’. This is doublethink in action!

The media said that the troops were sent in not to make war and kill people, but to ‘search for peace’. Clearly, this is perverse, and we need to decode the media so we really understand what they are saying. And we should demand our media tell the truth instead of camouflage it with ‘purr’ words and ‘snarl’ words to evoke emotional reactions or to cover up the crimes of our political and military leaders. So ‘collateral damage’ should really be described as what it is - ‘murdered civilians’, and an ‘area denial device’ should be called a ‘mine’ or an ‘illegal cluster bomb’.

Here are some terms used, particularly in Vietnam, and some used elsewhere, with their translations, which I adapted from Herman’s dictionary:

Aid:
‘Aid’ is usually help for corporations in selling their goods abroad, or subsidies to corporations for setting up sweatshops in third world countries. The other type of overseas ‘aid’ is western help in setting up a military terror apparatus for the repression of legitimate protest (legitimate protest is usually called ‘subversion’ by the government and media!) Here is US official Robert Nooter, talking about ‘aid’ to Vietnam, which was used to terrorize the population: "Aid’s task (in Vietnam) has been to assist the National Police in recruiting, training, and organising a force for the maintenance of law and order." This means that aid was really financing the state terror apparatus.

Law and Order:
Really means ‘Order’, which is the pacification of the population.

Conventional Attack:
Dropping bombs on villages from 20,000 feet.

Bay of Tonkin Incident:
A fabricated attack on US warships by the North Vietnamese on August 4th 1964, manufactured by the Johnson Administration to obtain a blank cheque from Congress to move to a full scale war with Vietnam. Assisted by a gullible and supine Congress, the blank cheque was granted and a war of aggression was escalated.

Escalation:
Covering up mistakes by increasing their size and number. With a sufficient investment in mistakes, their correction involves undue ‘loss of face’. We are then stuck on the Escalator.

Save:
Kill. As in ‘we have to save the Kosovar people’. By bombing them. ‘Rescue’ means the same thing.

Body Count:
The total number of people we ‘saved’.

Censorship:
The sick leading the blind.

Free World:
The group of countries that worships corporate power.

Communism:
Those countries that aren’t part of the ‘Free World’.

Conservatism:
The political ideology which says ‘the Government Is Too Big’. Conveniently, the exceptions to this size restriction are the military, the police and the prisons, which in the mind of the conservative are MUCH too small and so need major expansion (republicans, tories, labour party, democrats - they are all conservative).

Commandos:
Assassination or death squads. Commandos in countries we don’t like are called ‘terrorists’.

Crop Denial:
A Vietnam War program to deny the enemy of food, by destroying the food supplies of the people we are ‘saving’, or ‘rescuing’ from the enemy. Detrimental effects on the peasants whose crops we destroy (such as starvation) are usually called ‘collateral’, ‘inadvertent’, or ‘unintentional’.

Diplomacy:
Giving an ultimatum.

Negotiations:
Giving ultimatums.

Search for Peace:
A PR ploy which will allow us to continue to pursue warfare.

Military solution:
What our governments employ when Diplomacy, Negotiations and the Search for Peace have been exhausted.

National Interest:
Corporate interests.

George Orwell:
A British optimist

Deterrent:
Our capability to attack.

Development:
Exploitation.

Education:
Official instructions on the merits of free enterprise, and the creation of a phobia of communism.

Enemy Structure:
A thatched hut we destroyed.

Extremist:
A government term used to describe any person who advocates enough change to actually have a beneficial effect. This also means anyone who disagrees with capitalists.

Faith:
Our strong belief.

Fanaticism:
The enemy’s strong belief.

Firepower:
The first and last recourse of US diplomacy.

Free:
Used by the system to describe a non-communist. Also used to mean ‘good’.

Free Fire Zone:
An area in which, by military proclamation, there are no friendly forces or populace, and in which targets may be attacked on the initiative of US/Free World commanders. Anyone killed in a Free Fire Zone MUST have been a communist, therefore, according to the definition!

Hostages:
A word we use for prisoners taken by our enemies.

Interrogation:
Torture.

Kill:
What the enemy does.

Neutralize:
What we do.

Civilize:
To kill.

Limited Accidental Damage:
The total destruction of a target, which is officially off limits. As in Pentagon spokesmen said that the Bach Mai hospital and Gia Lau airport apparently suffered ‘some limited accidental damage’ during the intensive US bombing.

Marxist-Leninist:
Designation of a government we are about to attack. ‘Marxist’ shows dogmatic leftist tendencies, ‘Leninist’ shows a connection to Moscow! This designation doesn’t need any actual basis in reality, but is used solely to justify an attack.

Political Fund Raising:
Fighting money with money.

Prevent Wars:
Enlarge the arms budget.

Propaganda:
The enemy’s lies.

Public Information:
Our lies.

The Press:
Guardians of Public Information.

Restraint:
Killing fewer people than we actually have the technical capability to kill.

Search and Destroy:
This was the main US military activity in South Vietnam between 1965 and 1971. Search and Destroy actions took the form of a mission involving the occupation of a village, the killing of all males attempting to run, impounding whoever is left for ‘Interrogation’ (definition: Torture), and destroying all animals, food and houses, ‘to deprive enemy forces of sustenance and shelter’. The remaining population was relocated in what was called a ‘strategic hamlet’. (I shall define this next). Today, we would call search and destroy missions: ‘ethnic cleansing’.

Strategic Hamlet:
A specially constructed settlement, guarded by the US military, which houses the displaced populations (usually women and children) from search and destroy missions. The official line was that these people were under US protection from attack and from subversion at the hands of their own husbands, fathers and sons! (Today, we would call them ‘concentration camps’. Interestingly, the Nazi’s sometimes claimed that their concentration camps were for protective custody too!)

Subversion:
Any activity or protest from below that threatens elite concerns.

TV:
The real American education system.

Vietnam War:
A lengthy US war against the right of the people of Vietnam to choose their leaders, which was fought in order to stop ‘communism’ from infecting America, which was actually 10,000 miles away from the possibility of infection. But above all, buy and read Edward Herman’s book!

Ed


Sullen

 

[discouraged1]

Did anyone care when NATO bombed Yugoslavia?

I live in the main Belgrade street downtown, between the Military building and the Police Dept. and both buildings were destroyed and completely demolished one night(during the attacks that lasted 77 fuckin' days).
I was quite happy I lived through it and I still appreciate the fact I'm still alive.

And the main thing is?
I could die NOT because I'm the terrorist, but because of the Yugoslavian ex-fucking-president Slobodan Milosevic who is finally in Hague now(and I hope he will die and rot there 4ever), the person responsible for all the shit that happened to our people in the past 10 years.
NATO could kill only him any time they wanted, but no, they just didn't care and didn't want to free the innocent people from agony.

 

[Mikael is God]

this is confusing me... sullen jester it sounds like you're saying the USA made up that the Milosovec guy was an asshole, but this dude just came on and posted that the dude is responsible for everything that happened in the past 10 years.....

 

[Leper Affinity]

The USA has bombed these countried since 1945, in most of them (for not saying all of them), innocent people died too... :

China 1945-46 and 1950-53
Korea 1950-52
Guatemala 1954 and 1960
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Congo 1964
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemaña 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Libya 1986
El Salvador and Nicaragua all the 80's
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991-99
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999

 

[MetalManCPA]

What's the point of this circular discussion. Yes - Amercians have bombed others as noted by Leper, and terrorism is part of everyday life for many around the world.

And yes, I'm mad that we (Americans) have seemed to act with an air of invincibility.

Here's what I think - because American soil hasn't been infiltrated by terrorists, we have "tried" to balance diplomacy, human interest, our ego, etc. in dealing with the problem. For the first time in history, we Americans have personally endured this new type of war. In the past, the opposition has made it very clear who they are - we've known our enemy. This is a new enemy - one who hides, is cowardly, and quite frankly this makes them the most evil opposition the USA has ever faced.

But all this finger pointing, "deserve it" talk - what's the point? If anybody stands behind terrorism - let us know. That is what we are dealing with. It's not about what country does what to who, it's about the global terrorist movement - there is no country here.

So I firmly believe that most of the posts here, and heated discussions that occur are out of anger, and pride for ones own country.

I ask everybody who reads this the main issue here: Do you stand behind terrorism and believe in its foundations?

If you do, you deserve what I hope is the ultimate fate of the terrorist movement.

 

[E V I L]

America is not perfect- yes we know this. There is no need to point out its imperfections and errors.

America is not an altruistic pan-national angel taking care of all nations equally and unconditionally- no shit sherlock!!

But America is DEMOCRATIC and operated by individuals who are for and bounded by the composite of principles that protect individuality and basic human rights.

We err, but who doesn't? We are mutable, and we have the basic freedoms to criticize which includes impeaching corrupt officers of law and prosecuting them, which includes protesting active policies and legislations of our government and correcting them. Those are freedoms that are to be cherishes and make no mistake about it, that is the fiber and core of the USA.

If you're for these same principles of which America is a part, stop your fucking bitching and petty anti-american arguments. I'm getting sick of these shallow-minded non-american people, thse envious children spouting their meaningless intellectualizations.

 

[MetalManCPA]

Originally posted by E V I L
America is not perfect- yes we know this. There is no need to point out its imperfections and errors.

America is not an altruistic pan-national angel taking care of all nations equally and unconditionally- no shit sherlock!!

If you're for these same principles of which America is a part, stop your fucking bitching and petty anti-american arguments. I'm getting sick of these shallow-minded non-american people, thse envious children spouting their meaningless intellectualizations.

EVIL - if I'm missing the point, I'm sorry - but it seems anger is talking. It's very hard to type your thoughts and make them clear and concise - that's what we're all attempting to do.

I think most Americans are very angry - so am I. But I'm sharing my inner thoughts regarding this matter with everybody here. If you believe the "bonding in the face of adversity" theory doesn't exist, then I'm not with you, because I feel that's exactly what's happening worldwide.

You call it bitching, I call it venting. You say no shit Sherlock - well, of course no shit. But why not share anyways? It does help to ease the pain - unless of course you're a super human, and can block this out and be strong (which I call denial).

I hope you see my viewpoint on this, because I'm not trying to argue.

 

[E V I L]

Metalmancpa,

Sincere apologies if I didn't make myself clearer. I haven't exactly been following the crap in this thread, but I think my post pertains to those you may have been arguing *against*. In short, it was not directed towards you. My mood is kinda sour lately ( i live in NY)

 

[love]

greetings

i felt the need to stop by and i am sooo thankful to see that the regular posters here that reside in nyc are still with us.

yes this past week has been unthinkable but please dont get wrapped up in your anger and become what you despise.

love you all
((love))

-forgive our arrogance-

 

[MetalManCPA]

Originally posted by E V I L
Metalmancpa,

Sincere apologies if I didn't make myself clearer. I haven't exactly been following the crap in this thread, but I think my post pertains to those you may have been arguing *against*. In short, it was not directed towards you. My mood is kinda sour lately ( i live in NY)

Thank-you.

This has been a real bitch of a week. I never realized such a life changing event would occur, at least I never believed I would be alive to see it. I still haven't come to grips with it, nor figured out how to absorb it fully in order to move on with whatever "normal" life will be tomorrow.

 

[Sullen Jester]

Maybe I'm not making sense or your not reading it the way I wrote - either way I guess I should have tried to be a bit clearer..



Did anyone care when NATO bombed Yugoslavia?

I guess the Yugoslav's did. I do to - how the fingerlicking hell will bombing a country help a leaders disposition?

I live in the main Belgrade street downtown, between the Military building and the Police Dept. and both buildings were destroyed and completely demolished one night(during the attacks that lasted 77 fuckin' days).
I was quite happy I lived through it and I still appreciate the fact I'm still alive.

It's good to hear that you survived, and a shame that those attacks occured. It's a shame that any attacks ever occured.

And the main thing is?
I could die NOT because I'm the terrorist, but because of the Yugoslavian ex-fucking-president Slobodan Milosevic who is finally in Hague now(and I hope he will die and rot there 4ever), the person responsible for all the shit that happened to our people in the past 10 years.

Are you sure? Are you sure that you could have died because of HIM? JUST Slobadan? Noone else?

NATO could kill only him any time they wanted, but no, they just didn't care and didn't want to free the innocent people from agony.

NATO is a corrupt organization that exists only in the mindset of making a profit. What does this have to do with us? If we were in control of a profitable country, do you think someone like them would leave you alone for long?




About the politicians, well, you know how there are lots of protests and demonstrations?
If they were elected to lead us to a better place, and elected because they obviously know what we need, why is there a need to protest there actions? What they can do for us is just the sales pitch, the sugar coating etc. etc. When they are elected they are real arseholes...




And sorry if I seem to be attacking Americans, but that's where this argument has kind of drifted. I'm not saying that "America is bad but Australia is good" as I hate all capitalist regimes.
Yes I hate the Australian government too.

 

[MetalManCPA]

This thread is amazing.

For the first time since Tuesday, I actually realized that 4-days have gone by, and I've gone from the dream stage to the knowledge that Tuesday is now in the history books. I was thinking tonight: I "know" about all the wars from what I read in books - except the Gulf War. I was too young to remember Vietnam, so even though I lived through it, my information still comes from the history books. But not Tuesday.

I just lived through history, which to me is unbelievable. I know I'm living through the technology age, but it's been going on for a long time now. I know terrorism has been occuring for a whole lot longer than the Technology Age we're currently enduring, but since it's never hit our soil with a force anywhere close to what I witnessed Tuesday, I've known about it, but didn't have a real sense of understanding terrorism.

I really believe this changed the course of history in a very large way. I also believe that what we do as individuals each day changes history, albiet just for a small number of people including yourself. My conception of "changing history" on a grander scale has also only come from books until today's revelation (in my mind) of Tuesday's events.

So I continue to come back to this thread to see it change with time. It makes me look inside at my own emotional swings, and brings me closer to understanding the real effect of this tragedy.

I hope everybody can start to seperate good from evil in their minds just a little clearer than it has been. This event has widened that gap in a huge way. I've seen something totally new to me. I've learned the concept of "close to home". I've definately bonded with my country in a whole new manner. Pride just oozed out of me.

But mostly, I can only dream that some day in my lifetime, I'll see the entire world on the same page, with the same definitions of every word ever written. Hey - there's nothing like a good dream : it's a great coping skill to have.

 

[benny]

I wasn't the most patriotic American before all of this happened. But now I see how vulnerable we really are here in America it has really made me think. I see how the people of the world reacted to this tragedy and it really gave me some much needed pride in this country that has given me so much. Everything has changed for me now, pretty much my whole view of America is one of a country that is fighting for what is right in this world. Seeing all of these people who are searching for loved ones really gets me misty eyed and I haven't shed a tear in a long time.

 

[Sullen Jester]

America is one of a country that is fighting for what is right in this world

But what's right?
I think the idea of a group of people heading towards whats right is good, but do we really know whats right?

 

[benny]

I think fighting terrorism is a big step in the right direction.

 

[Villain]

Originally posted by winter-frost
I think fighting terrorism is a big step in the right direction.

Sure it is - and destroying terrorist organizations like CIA should be part of it, just like punishing terrorist-leaders like Ronald Reagan. If you don't know what I'm talking about, read the article I linked earlier in this thread and start yelling AFTER you have read that.

But more about the general topic: Yes, I admit that I was too damn harsh when I said America deserved it. Only a few assholes (like RR) would have deserved it - and they are actually benefitting from this! Nationalism (the plague of mankind) is rising in the States and the US arms-industry gains billions of dollars. Those terrorists gained nothing and they indirectly destroyed the lives of millions of innocent muslims by their work. Already a moskey(sp?) in Texas has been attacked by American idiots.

Last tuesday was a very sad day, not necessarily for America, but for the world.

-Villain

 

[Mr. Black]

Originally posted by winter-frost
I think fighting terrorism is a big step in the right direction.

well lets hope that these new yorkers remember that next time they walk into their local McIrish theme pub and some goon asks them to donate money to Sinn Finne or the IRA...because if they're really looking to find all the ppl who have supported and harboured terrorists they need look no futher than themselves...

 

[Graves]

OK, so she isn't metal (but she rocks): I saw PJ Harvey in concert the other night. She was in DC at the time of the attack. She decided to continue with her tour here becuase she feels as though music is a great healer. I couldn't agree more, and was
so glad she didn't cancel -- we all needed it. At the show she expressed her sorrow about the attack and then ripped into this song from her latest album, which was inspired by time she spent in Manhattan:

[Kamikaze]

How could that happen?
How could that happen again?
Where the fuck was I looking
When all his horses came in?
And he built a whole army
Of kamikaze

10,000 willing
Pilots flying
Interfacing
Space and beyond
Built an army
To come and find me

Beyond all reason
Beyond all my hopes
The call of duty
Another war zone
(Makes me moan)

Kamikaze - you can't touch me, kamikaze

Eight miles high
He walks his path
And I follow mine
One tooth for one eye
He's come to find me

10,000 willing
Pilots flying
Interfacing
Space and beyond
Here is his army
Interspace here we come

Kamikaze-you don't touch me
Space here we come


This other one she opened with, also from her newest release, is how
I've often been feeling lately. They both seemed spookily prophetic to
me:

[Big Exit]

Look out ahead
I see danger come
I wanna' pistol
I wanna' gun
I'm scared baby
I wanna' run
This world's crazy
Give me the gun

Baby, baby
Ain't it true
I'm immortal
When I'm with you
But I wanna' pistol
In my hand
I wanna' go to
A different land

I met a man
He told me straight
'You gotta' leave
It's getting late'
Too many cops
Too many guns
All trying to do something
No-one else has done

Baby, baby...

I walk on concrete