The World Trade Center, in New York, was just Kamikazied by airplanes!

>I agree that none of the people that died on tuesday deserved to die - I just say that America deserved it.

I know it's stupid to get involved in this, but Villian, you come from Finland, a country that is totally insignificant on the world stage (although I'm sure it's beautiful and a great place). None of the other countries in the world look to Finland for help, support, advice, or anything. You don't know what it is like to be a citizen of a country that every other country looks to, a country that leads the world. Therefore, your opinion really doesn't have much importance to me.

Well, it seem's to me that you don't read thing's through.
He said that none of the people deserved to die, but AMERICA deserved it. The American State, the government etc. etc.
YOU brought the USA people and starting minimizing other countries accomplishments, and bragging about those of the USA. Let's go there then.

For accomplishments, they have started many corporations that exist only for profit - and cut out all expenditures as possible. Think "Sweat Shops". What are they?
American owned slave factories in undeveloped, third world companies. They have helped destroy peoples lives for that bit of money.

Before someone said that the USA helps all countries, then said that it only helps the ones you like.
Well yes, it has helped countries.
BUT they also called a massive debt on these third world companies and demand payment. This incredible debt is a major cause of death in these countries through lack of funding of water purification facilities, hospitals and proper medical supplies, schools etc. etc.. So this "great, helpful" country of yours has helped murder millions through greed.




Villian, just answer one question, for the last 50 years, after the US, the USSR, and the British defeated the Nazis, do you think your country would've peacefully coexisted with the Soviets if the US wasn't on the other side in the Cold War? Would your country have been better off if the US lost the Cold War?

It would pretty much be the same - living under the bloody rule of a single man. I.e Hitler. He did everything, he was in CONTROL. He made laws, regulations etc. etc. and people were brainwashed. They literarily worshipped him.
Now, that's happening again. The man up top is getting his share of P.R. and is getting a good name with the people. That's is a bad thing. See how you automatically attack people who disrespect your "lovely nation", bringing up pointless arguments and evading all questions?
No don't worry, there are lot's of people like you, but again, try to THINK FOR YOURSELF.



For this struggle with the Soviets, the US deserves a terrorist attack?

No. The US Government deserve it for the struggle with HUMANKIND.


How about the advances that have come out of the US in the area of computer technology? What has Finland done to advance the Information Age? Does the computer you use have any American software or hardware?

Again, he wasn't attacking the sole accomplishments of individual stalwarts - he was attacking the Government. And as Protocol pointed out, a LOT of software hardware etc. etc. comes from the Eurasian continents, but American-owned. More sweatshop slavery.



Villian, when was the last time you went to the movies? Are there any American movies playing in your country or American programs on your TV?? For providing the world with this entertainment, the US deserves a terrorist attack? You may not like every movie or program but millions of people around the world do.

Do you know how many non-american movies/shows/etc, etc. there are? I'm usually swamped finding an English speaking movie when I'm bored, as there are so many. Just because everything in America has an American spin to it, doesn't make it tops.


The point is: Before you start saying such hateful rhetoric, look at your own country and your own life and think how the US has contributed to it's well-being. Now think about how Finland has contributed to my life and my country.

The point is: Before you start misconstruing what people say, and start saying such hateful crap, look at your own evils that have come from America. Wake up to the world.
As for what Finland had contributed, and in backing this argument up, they held off the Russians off for a LONG time whilst dealing with a numerically superior threat. They alone could have saved Northern-Europe from the Soviet rule, thus making it easier for USA, UK etc. etc.


And you still have the balls to say that the US deserves a terrorist attack!

And you have the balls to come up with something so illogical!















>>America is no better than the Soviets ever were.

Villian, do you know that the Soviets killed upwards of 10 million of their own people because of Stalin's extreme paranoia? Do you know that the Soviets subjected the people of Eastern Europe and Central Asia to a tyrannical oppression?

Do you know how much oppression there is in USA?
Do you remember Rodney King? He's a black man, nice person really. He was dragged off the road and had the crap beat out of him by four white, all-american police officers. This is just ONE example for that, but another case, a small camera (One of those fly-on-the-wall thinges) caught some more white police, busting a black man, why? Because "his shoes looked too expensive for what a black could provide". US society has a LOT of twisted morals, and a lot of it is behind-the-scenes. Wake up.

Shut the FUCK up.

Right back at you.

I have nothing more to say to you because your comments make you seem to be a complete fool.

Now THAT is as egotistical, arrogant, elitist as you could be. You suggest, that you are above his comments, because you don't agree with them? YOU are a fucking NAZI. If you don't agree with what I say, will you censor me too?
YOU are the complete fool, for thinking you are above him, or anyone else for that matter, that you can tell everyone what to do, that you can dismiss their arguments at the thought that its simply, "wrong", as it was not what you were taught.
Fucking take a look around you.












You complain about the great injustices performed against the Americans in recent actions, yet forget about the other people in the world. A tragedy in its own rights, this terrorist action has truly brought out an ignorant side.

You claim this to be a first bad action in a good world, the first bad action in a long time.
You forget about the 1.3 billion people that live on less than one dollar a day. You forget about the 4.7 million children that die under the age of 5 every year in South Asia. You forget about the 2 million children that have been killed in armed conflicts in the past decade. You forget about the 800 million that go to bed hungry every night. You forget that 90 percent of the victims in todays wars are civilians. You forget about the 1.2 millin people that have died in Iraq since 1991 because of sanctions placed on food and medical aid. You forget about everyone and everything that is not on your beloved mainstream TV. You forget about what a real, loving and caring world is. You never knew.
You've been raised in a world of consumer brainwashing and lawless politcal activity.
Wake up.
I say wake the fuck up.
Take a heart and show compassion for more than just those on TV. Show compassion for ALL OF your fellow humans, not just the ones your told to.
 
Originally posted by Protocol
My motivation, luke, as I've said a couple of times before, is that I like to argue, debate, fight. A devil's advocate if you like,

All in all, I hope you're questioning my motives for the sake of debate and not because you actually can't understand them. =)
Click to expand...

I appreciate the effort to stimulate the board. Again, just asking you to rethink the appropriateness of your timing.
 
.....That picture is weird. I hope it isn't fabricated. So sad that that's actually of a real event. Still find it surreal in some way.

To Sullen Jester,

Let's be metrical about this. How much does democracy and freedom and human rights mean to you? How much does America do to fortify such politics in the world?

Conversely do you support totalitarian regimes?

How much good has America done vs the bad that it's done? And what's worth more to you?

I think the knee-jerk reactions that some people in america might have (that all such acts of terrorism are absolutely unjustifiable and evil) are naive. True. It is justifiable, or at least, the sentiment behind such extremism, can be understood and explained, which is to say there are reasons behind such acts.

But at the same time I think you are given to ignoring the vast good that america signifies and produces, vis-a-vis that it helps ensure a respect for human rights and basic freedoms in the world, indispensable values of which America has been the prime guardian. Do you fault America while ignoring everything else?

NO nation is perfect to be sure, but the values and idealogies they stand for can be determined. There is little, if any, confusion about this. The aggressions that America or Irag make ARE BOTH justifiable, but I think we should not make the mistake of forgetting the idealogical horizons in which such aggressions and transgressions take place.

Innocent people die. And civilian atrocities do occur. By rule, by logic, by whatever, however, when america violates the rights of others and destroys innocent life, that is largely the result of error, that is open to criticism and we hope correction. When Suddam does it, that is only the natural if not inevitable behavior of a dictatorial politic, sactioned only by the ruling despotic few.

Extremist muslims think that America is out to destroy the muslim way of life. How absurd. America only seeks to sedate their totalitarian agenda, and breed a respect for tolerance and multiplicity, values that accord with individual interest and one's right to a pursuit of happiness. America does defend people's right to religion it should be remembered, and it will not support any society in which any religion is forcefully suppressed. That 's the bottom line.

So whose side are you on? And what what do YOU stand for?

My final position: no innocent deserves to have their lives ruined and destroyed. Religious or not. The statement "America deserved it" is not even worth consideration. In fact it misses the point, for the real question seems to be: is America (its governemnt, way of life and idealogies) good and is what it signifies worthy of our support?

two casual cents flickered from nonchalant thumbs.
 
May I just interject something here? No? Well, I'm going to anyway. :p

Xtokalon is admirably trying to direct the conversation, but I have a comment first.

Americans go on and on about "freedom," "liberty," "rights," etc, and I distinctly remember being told in early elementary school that the US was the best country in the world and to live ANYWHERE else in the world would be a travesty.

For starters, do the Americans on this board realize the extent to which other developed countries are just aghast at our death penalty? How barbaric it seems to them? Now, to us Americans, we're so used to accepting our justice system that we don't even *think* about this when discussing how morally superior we are to other countries when it comes to civil liberties and "freedom."

And also, the mention of the horrid practices of multinational and transnational corporations, anchored in the US, is completely justified. This is something the average American knows NOTHING about. All we're told is that we're supplying much-needed jobs to poor countries, and we all pat ourselves on the back for being so attentive to the world's needs. Just one semester in a class about globalization taught me more than probably 98% of Americans, and the extent and consequences of our exploitative behavior is just immeasurable. (Sidenote -- I don't know how this would be avoided though in our capitalist system. If it wasn't the US, it would be whichever country was the richest. So the US isn't inherently EVIL on this front.)

During all these recent international trade summits, I didn't talk to a single American who was aware of what the protesters were even protesting. It was *trendy* to make fun of all those hippies. True, there were a lot of idiots who just wanted to protest something, anything. But there are SERIOUS questions concerning freedom, rights, liberties, working conditions, child labor, debt reduction -- and no one in this country is even aware they're going on. The media just hasn't latched on to it as an important topic right now.

In summary, I agree that the US has done much, much, much good in the world. BUT I think there are many other western countries that are MORE "free" and "moral" than us -- they simply aren't world leaders because of their size.

So Americans on this board, understand that it has to be frustrating for so many people on this board whose countries are much more utopic than ours to hear us drone on and on about how our country is the best.

I would bet that the anti-American posts on this board stem from a frustration at the complete lack of awareness the average American has about anything outside the US. So either look into, or just accept, that other countries have much lower crime, more civil liberties, and less income disparity than ours before shouting that America is the best country in the world, hands-down, period, and that all other countries must just be jealous. That's only going to encourage resentment.
 
luke you schmuck! >P

Trust you to use my refraining from painting a grand picture of myself to paint a grand picture of yourself. Tsk tsk.
 
.....That picture is weird. I hope it isn't fabricated. So sad that that's actually of a real event. Still find it surreal in some way.

I agree, in the hopes that it isn't fabricated.. but if it wasn't, its a bit wierd isnt it?

To Sullen Jester,

*excited*

Let's be metrical about this. How much does democracy and freedom and human rights mean to you? How much does America do to fortify such politics in the world?

Freedom means a lot to me. I have very little in this shit life of mine. I have it. My life suck's as hell, but I will still fight for all life. All freedom. All rights.
As I have said before, it's not the American PEOPLE, but the American GOVERNMENT. Please forgive me if I haven't been clear in my messages. I see a capitalist state as oppressive, and a limit on freedom, as more than often it punishes people who are pissed off by the state, who disagree with the "general belief".

Conversely do you support totalitarian regimes?

Sorry if it seem's like I'm avoiding the question, but I only support a legitimate, anarchist movement dedicated to EQUALITY. I wouldn't be interested in leading ANYONE, or ANYTHING, as I would have to be responsible. That is too much for ANY human, to be responsible for ANOTHER, when we are all too IMPERFECT to rule ourselves efficiently, and in a "good" way.

How much good has America done vs the bad that it's done? And what's worth more to you?

In my mind, and feel free to comment on this one, I believe it's impossible to weigh "good" and "bad" with one-another. Saving so-and-so's life from a group of tyrants, who had the capability of destroying some country, and you stop, will NEVER negate raping Mr. Ble's family. Do you understand what I mean? Doing 1 really good thing won't make up for any "wrong's". The good of the American populace will not make up for them being led into anothers environment and taking what is wanted, at the wishes of one bloody MADMAN. These people were manipulated by great PR efforts into believing Roy and Jimbo of this country were bad, as were their followers, and they justly followed their leaders into saving the world from the threat they posed. When Roy and Jimob were good people, these good American citizens whose accomplishments were a gift to the HUMAN SOCIETY were USED by the GOVERNMENT to fulfill their GREED.
I don't think that's clear at all, but what I mean, the good of ONE person will not make the bad of ANOTHER's okay. My complaints are with the government, the leaders, but not with the people.

I think the knee-jerk reactions that some people in america might have (that all such acts of terrorism are absolutely unjustifiable and evil) are naive. True. It is justifiable, or at least, the sentiment behind such extremism, can be understood and explained, which is to say there are reasons behind such acts.

By knee-jerk, do you mean an automatic one? Something that they can't help and can't stray from? If so, I think your 100% right there. A lot (Damn those generalisations!) of people have a programmed reaction to something, that they will solidly (not always coherently) defend. All acts of terrorism are evil, and definately unjustifiable. Nothing is justifiable.

But at the same time I think you are given to ignoring the vast good that america signifies and produces, vis-a-vis that it helps ensure a respect for human rights and basic freedoms in the world, indispensable values of which America has been the prime guardian. Do you fault America while ignoring everything else?

The same argument as above, that good doesnt make the bad ones better. It just means there have been good and bad actions. That this person is of variable conscience. There are a lot of good people in this world, and yes America included, that try thier hardest to help those treated inequal. I fault the government for being corrupt and decadent, but I do not fault the people. My comments have been directed as one against the government, never the people. I know there will be bad people out there, but generalising that as "the people are as bad as the government" is fuckin' pointless.

NO nation is perfect to be sure, but the values and idealogies they stand for can be determined. There is little, if any, confusion about this. The aggressions that America or Irag make ARE BOTH justifiable, but I think we should not make the mistake of forgetting the idealogical horizons in which such aggressions and transgressions take place.

Yes, there aggressions can be justified, as aggressions fought for money. That is bad. I can go into this, and I will do so later, just right now I lack the caffeine in my system to do something that requires research (Finding the exact facts).

Innocent people die. And civilian atrocities do occur. By rule, by logic, by whatever, however, when america violates the rights of others and destroys innocent life, that is largely the result of error, that is open to criticism and we hope correction. When Suddam does it, that is only the natural if not inevitable behavior of a dictatorial politic, sactioned only by the ruling despotic few.

Why classify Suddam as a dictator, when all rulers are, as they limit our freedom.

Extremist muslims think that America is out to destroy the muslim way of life. How absurd. America only seeks to sedate their totalitarian agenda, and breed a respect for tolerance and multiplicity, values that accord with individual interest and one's right to a pursuit of happiness. America does defend people's right to religion it should be remembered, and it will not support any society in which any religion is forcefully suppressed. That 's the bottom line.

Back in a time before now, religion was forced upon ALL. When it became too much of a issue, people were given THAT freedom. But still, religion is a big issue, and America's provocative, capitalist, elitist, homophobic, racist etc. etc. government forces whatever (well, nearly) they want. There is no TRUE HAPPINESS except for the one we all feel in TOTAL FREEDOM.

So whose side are you on? And what what do YOU stand for?
I'm taking no 'sides', just what I believe in, and that is complete equality, no matter what species, complete freedom, and what is "right". What's "right" I cannot really say, as in various situations it would vary, but essentially it comes down to something that is beneficial to all, and never anythign that can hurt or harm others. Never to manipulate or goad another, but to lead a helpful life.

My final position: no innocent deserves to have their lives ruined and destroyed. Religious or not. The statement "America deserved it" is not even worth consideration. In fact it misses the point, for the real question seems to be: is America (its governemnt, way of life and idealogies) good and is what it signifies worthy of our support?

NOONE deserves to DIE at all. Not even the bloodied massmurders like Bush. To punish them, say by life-inprisonment, wouldn't solve anything, but leave that man in anguish for hte rest of his biological life, and piss off all his supporters...

I'm going to stop now, as I am getting less understandable by the minute...

Later all,
I'll be back with more information soon.


Have a good one.
 
Lina...

Americans go on and on about "freedom," "liberty," "rights," etc, and I distinctly remember being told in early elementary school that the US was the best country in the world and to live ANYWHERE else in the world would be a travesty.

Yes, propaganda. It happen's everywhere, not just in the US.

For starters, do the Americans on this board realize the extent to which other developed countries are just aghast at our death penalty? How barbaric it seems to them? Now, to us Americans, we're so used to accepting our justice system that we don't even *think* about this when discussing how morally superior we are to other countries when it comes to civil liberties and "freedom."

I was trying to say before (I think I was) that when your life is so built up on something you don't even think to second-guess it. It becomes an autonomous response in your chain of thinking, a permanent link in your chain of reason.

And also, the mention of the horrid practices of multinational and transnational corporations, anchored in the US, is completely justified. This is something the average American knows NOTHING about. All we're told is that we're supplying much-needed jobs to poor countries, and we all pat ourselves on the back for being so attentive to the world's needs. Just one semester in a class about globalization taught me more than probably 98% of Americans, and the extent and consequences of our exploitative behavior is just immeasurable. (Sidenote -- I don't know how this would be avoided though in our capitalist system. If it wasn't the US, it would be whichever country was the richest. So the US isn't inherently EVIL on this front.)

And its something that your not wanted to know about. When you don't know about something, how can you fight it? Supplying well needed jobs is just justification of slavery, and it strikes in your mind as such a good cause, that you dont think of any alternatives behind the message. It's all a part about brainwashing, which I can provide you some information for should anyone request it.


During all these recent international trade summits, I didn't talk to a single American who was aware of what the protesters were even protesting. It was *trendy* to make fun of all those hippies. True, there were a lot of idiots who just wanted to protest something, anything. But there are SERIOUS questions concerning freedom, rights, liberties, working conditions, child labor, debt reduction -- and no one in this country is even aware they're going on. The media just hasn't latched on to it as an important topic right now.

They don't know, because they listen to the mainstream media (4/5 times government controlled) so that definately won't be used to convey a message of a protest.

In summary, I agree that the US has done much, much, much good in the world. BUT I think there are many other western countries that are MORE "free" and "moral" than us -- they simply aren't world leaders because of their size.

That's one accurate way to put it...

So Americans on this board, understand that it has to be frustrating for so many people on this board whose countries are much more utopic than ours to hear us drone on and on about how our country is the best.

You are a very...modest..and understanding person.

I would bet that the anti-American posts on this board stem from a frustration at the complete lack of awareness the average American has about anything outside the US. So either look into, or just accept, that other countries have much lower crime, more civil liberties, and less income disparity than ours before shouting that America is the best country in the world, hands-down, period, and that all other countries must just be jealous. That's only going to encourage resentment.

That's pretty much it. That, misunderstanding and a inaccurate anger.

gtg
pizza is here!
 
Forgive me if I said that, as I do not think it to be the case.
If a man kills another, is it our duty to kill him in turn? Would that be just?
By that system we ourselves would then need to be killed.

Death is never an answer.
 
In the middle of all these...":mad: feelings," while driving to work this morning, again I heard that this all started on Tuesday at 8:45 AM. So, how did the thread starter, Human_Life know already at 8:22 AM? Are the clocks off that much? I know. How preoccupied/off-the-current-topic can I get?! :)

HE MUST BE ONE OF THEM!!!!!! :loco:
 
Yes. Very well said
Thank's for your input Gotham =D




I'm sorry that I lost my temper yesterday. I have the most respect for Scandanavia and I'm going for two weeks this fall as a tourist. I've been around the world in my life (lived in the Soviet Union 10 years ago as a student, all over Europe and the Middle East) and I'm not an American that's blind to the rest of the world. When I studied in Russia, I was confronted by a drunk Afghani who wanted to kick my ass because of President Bush's policies. That was the first time I realized that as an American I'm considered responsible for the actions of the government.

You are forgiven.. lol =P
It's been in my experience that a lot of people will blame an innocent populace for the actions of a singe leader. Such as what happened to you, in your example. Now, that will probably give you a slightly worse opinion of Afghani's, and that may stay with you. Not everyone is educated well enough to understand the difference between a foul leader and a compliant population. Some of my best friends are from America, and I can't see them as start wars, killing innocents etc. etc. This Afghani, most likely a victim of PR campaigns, will think theres no such thing of a "Good American". Throught provocatation and retaliation thing's will just get worse, in some silly argument that didn't have to take place.

Just consider though that I live very close to the Twin Towers, I could see it out my window. Try to believe me, if any of you people had spent any time in NYC, 1 month, 5 years, whatever, you would come to love this city and its people. This attack would've devastated you and you would NOT be saying all these anti-American theories. Not that you wouldn't believe it, but because of the complete lack of respect and decency it shows in the face of the tragedy that surrounds me everywhere I go. There's a time for these discussions, but have the decency to refrain for a little while, for fuck's sake.

Yes, we most likely would begin to love the city and it's people. I didn't say people deserved to die, and I didn't say the kamikaze pilots were right in their actions. I understand what you're saying but how long would be a decent wait? If some people start talking now, must I wait in order to be decent?

In a central park of the city, Union Square, many large pieces of paper have been taped to the ground. On the paper are messages written in many languages and alphabets, most calling for peace. A common opinion at this park is that retaliation would be a terrible reaction. If any of the "US governement is Satan" posters could spend any time at this park, you would see that your rhetoric is surrounding us here. You're not the great teachers of world society that you may believe. All day on Wednesday I stood in the park and heard people arguing just what you are saying. One memorable message written was "Is this how the Iraqi citizens feel when we bomb them?"

Speculation. No proof that the Iraqi's did this. For all we know, those pilots could have acted alone, but with plants of "evidence", to get others into the hungry cookpot.

Anyway, the point is that I know what you are saying. A lot of Americans know what you are saying. Don't think we are as ignorant as you seem to think. If we were really so ignorant, we wouldn't be leading the world in many areas of industry and culture. Your statements are just really not appreciated. People are crying in the streets around me and in your comfy homes in Finland and Australia, you spit on me. Forget the facts about what you're saying, just try for decency toward others.

I do not think your ignorant. I haven't said that Americans are ignorant. (Wasn't Canada voted for the best culture? Just reading that brought that to mind... Not too sure though... Anyone clear that up for me?) I know what you mean by it though, but I assure you: I see ALL OF HUMANKIND as a society capabale of much.
The only evil's in society I see are the leaders, the ones that assume control of others, and manipulate them for personal gain.

Try to imagine if Helsinki or Sydney were bombed by terrorists. Really try to consider it. Then, on the Internet, on the streets of those cities, people were saying this is deserved. Given you these facts that mean nothing to you. Pages out of a textbook. You say the US was a terrorizer in Nicaragua, in Iraq, in Yugoslavia. What the fuck does that have to do with me and everyone around me? Do you want me to storm the Capitol or set off bombs there?

Well, again, the AUSTRALIAN people, or people in HELSINKI, wouldn't deserve it. THE GOVERNING HAND would. I don't really know much bad things about either of these two governments, but like all governments, I think that in existence they are bad. Before, I said:
"The only evil's in society I see are the leaders, the ones that assume control of others, and manipulate them for personal gain."
And that is what I think of the government. They would deserve SOMETHING, but killing anyone won't solve anything.

You should take a look inside and ask yourself why you take such satisfaction and pleasure at attacking people with words who were just attacked with bombs. Where is your decency?

You must be tired in my saying this, but my strikes were against the government, not the victims of the assault. Keep on posting...


Later man,
Be nice =P


Sullen...
 
I agree about the retaliation bit 100%.
Reading interviews with top ranking US officails, it sounds to me like the US is acting like a wounded bear. It frightens me to read (I'm pretty sure it was Larry Cohen) say on the 13th that the US needs to make a political statement to the Islamic countries that it's not ok to harbour terrorists. A statement that would involve massive damage and 'lots of casualties' Another offical (not good with names, sorry) said that this called for the Us dropping a nuclear bomb on Afganistan.
All this, before they are sure it is Bin Ladin, and at the same time the Afgan government was saying that if there was conclusive evidence proving to Bin Ladin they would not shelter him.
One article said that enlistments went up to four times the usual rate immediately following the bombings.
The fact that 'Dubya' (somebody please explain where this name comes from) jumped on the horn right away saying that this would be treated as an act of war isn't very conforting either. The fact that news is so censored in Afghanistan, and that most Afghanis probably know little more than the fact there was some kind of disaster doesn't mean much to the US officials who are endoring their mass murder by nuclear weapons.
Why can they not see that such a broad response would only create thousands of new anti-US terrorists??
I applaud the Pakistani government for standing u tto the Us and opposing movement into Afghanistan. Perhaps after evidence proving it was Bin Ladin is presented, and the Taliban refuses to extradite him, selctive military actions would be neccessary
I hope China, Russia or France has the balls to stand up to Bush and stop him from doing something rash. I can't see many other countries doing so...

Where's Gandhi when you need him?
 
George W ('Dubya') Bush.

Well, I think even if there is currently no conclusive evidence linking Bin Laden to the Tuesday attacks, there's still plently linking him to the WTC bombing in 1993, and the U.S. Embassy bombings in Africa, amongst others. Whether he organized this recent attack or not, he is still a known terrorist, and still being harboured by the Afghan government. If the U.S. investigation concludes that they have enough evidence to charge Bin Laden of the crimes, and the Afghan government refuses to either turn him over or cooperate in allowing the U.S. to go in and get him, then they had best prepare for whatever action the Americans will take - it will be swift, coordinated, and conclusive. The U.S. military isn't run by people named "Dubya", and various individuals thinking a nuclear strike might be a wise idea... unlike the government.
 
I agree about the retaliation bit 100%.

Good!

Reading interviews with top ranking US officails, it sounds to me like the US is acting like a wounded bear. It frightens me to read (I'm pretty sure it was Larry Cohen) say on the 13th that the US needs to make a political statement to the Islamic countries that it's not ok to harbour terrorists. A statement that would involve massive damage and 'lots of casualties' Another offical (not good with names, sorry) said that this called for the Us dropping a nuclear bomb on Afganistan.

Not only was this a strike against the American people, but it affected the ominous pride that the US government and military have to cover other countries. If they don't act soon, and act effectively, smaller, less developed countries will realises that this power-state is not the well oiled machine that runs behind the scenes of today.

All this, before they are sure it is Bin Ladin, and at the same time the Afgan government was saying that if there was conclusive evidence proving to Bin Ladin they would not shelter him.

The sooner they find someone who they can blame convincingly, the better. In some cases, and in some perspectives, this is "better" than finding the guilty one.

One article said that enlistments went up to four times the usual rate immediately following the bombings.

Now, with this increase in soldiers, what would they do now? If you enlisted just to take a piece back for the bombings, you'd actually want to do that, eh? You won't sign up and not get retribution.

The fact that 'Dubya' (somebody please explain where this name comes from) jumped on the horn right away saying that this would be treated as an act of war isn't very conforting either. The fact that news is so censored in Afghanistan, and that most Afghanis probably know little more than the fact there was some kind of disaster doesn't mean much to the US officials who are endoring their mass murder by nuclear weapons.

Yes. Think of the innocent Afghani's getting nuke's and other illegal munition payloads dumped on them. Won't that be just?
BTW - Dubyah is refering to the "W", as in well, taking the "redneck american" (I intend no slight) pronounciation of "Double-u" as "Dubyah".

Why can they not see that such a broad response would only create thousands of new anti-US terrorists??

Yes, it will create a lot of new anti-US sentients, but if they nuke the hell out of a whole country because of the 18 men that crashed those planes, noone will risk that kind of a damage-ratio for freedom if they fail.

I applaud the Pakistani government for standing u tto the Us and opposing movement into Afghanistan. Perhaps after evidence proving it was Bin Ladin is presented, and the Taliban refuses to extradite him, selctive military actions would be neccessary

And keeping with trends, that means taking a "small taskforce" into the country, shooting the crap out of Osama Bin Laden, damaging the surrounding environment and leaving a small reminder of what happens when you oppose them. Then we get drowned in what "really" happened there.

I hope China, Russia or France has the balls to stand up to Bush and stop him from doing something rash. I can't see many other countries doing so...

Why would they, when theres a mutual benefit from it? If they oppose Dubyah in his act of vengeance now, what chance would they have of getting US help on some matter in the future?






The U.S. military isn't run by people named "Dubya", and various individuals thinking a nuclear strike might be a wise idea... unlike the government.

I beg to differ....

Later man,
Be nice =P


Sullen...
 
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