Theory on Guitar

Mystique1721

Mystique1721

bass solo, take one
Jul 31, 2006
4,675
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38
Southern Cali
So i think it'd be useful to have a thread for all the theory-related stuff you're trying to learn on guitar. Or just for theory questions in general.



here's a question i have (and maybe i should already know the answer to this, but whatevs, at least i'm trying to learn it now :p)

So i was wondering why is there a B string on guitar? if you think about it theoretically, the E string (6th string) is the fifth of A (which is the 5th string) and A is the fifth of D (the next string up, the 4th string) and D is the fifth of G and G is the fifth of C. so why isn't the B string a C string instead? is it because B is the fifth of E and the first string has to be the same as the sixth string? this has been on my mind for a while, so i thought i'd try to figure it out. what do you guys think?
 
By that logic, the high E would be an F. Tuning a guitar in completely in 4ths (you were looking at it in 5ths...same thing, just inverted) would make a lot of chord voicings a lot more difficult to finger. Try tuning your guitar completely in 4ths ( E-A-D-G-C-F) and then try playing basic barre chords and even basic open-position chords. The fingerings you would have to use in that tuning just aren't very practical. As far as the history behind it, tenor viols in the renaissance era were tuned in a similar fasion. The difference being that they used a major third between the 3rd and 4th strings rather than on the 3rd and 2nd like on modern guitars. 6 strings lutes were common at the same time and used that same tuning. The tuning for 6 string lutes is G-C-F-A-D-G (bearing in mind that this tuning is the modern intepretation of it though....as back then there wasn't really a standard for the exact pitch of the instrument so long as the intervals remained the same). Given that lute was the predecessor to guitar, I assume that logic just carried over. I guess I can't tell you exactly when the decision was made to "standardize" that tuning, who did so, or what the exact thought process was, but it ultimately comes back to making certain things easier to finger.
 
Meedleyx10 said:
By that logic, the high E would be an F. Tuning a guitar in completely in 4ths (you were looking at it in 5ths...same thing, just inverted) would make a lot of chord voicings a lot more difficult to finger. Try tuning your guitar completely in 4ths ( E-A-D-G-C-F) and then try playing basic barre chords and even basic open-position chords. The fingerings you would have to use in that tuning just aren't very practical. As far as the history behind it, tenor viols in the renaissance era were tuned in a similar fasion. The difference being that they used a major third between the 3rd and 4th strings rather than on the 3rd and 2nd like on modern guitars. 6 strings lutes were common at the same time and used that same tuning. The tuning for 6 string lutes is G-C-F-A-D-G (bearing in mind that this tuning is the modern intepretation of it though....as back then there wasn't really a standard for the exact pitch of the instrument so long as the intervals remained the same). Given that lute was the predecessor to guitar, I assume that logic just carried over. I guess I can't tell you exactly when the decision was made to "standardize" that tuning, who did so, or what the exact thought process was, but it ultimately comes back to making certain things easier to finger.
Click to expand...

damn dude, you certainly are well-informed. well thank you for that explaination. i guess our conclusion is that the reason it's tuned to this "standard tuning" is for practical purposes.
 
hmm...that was interesting. i think learning scales in the NST will be much easier to learn visually. i might try this out myself. thanks for updating us on this.
 
I just tried it. I've got great respect for anyone with the guts to fully tune up in this tuning. It had my heart in my throat by the time I got to the B string, and the E string was even worse!! Seriously I have no idea why the b and e didnt snap.

Anyway, the tuning sounds really nice. Its very melodic.
 
I would try it out, but all of my guitars present have locking nuts, and I really don't feel like going through all that crap now.
 
It's a novelty as far as I'm concerned. It's cool to try new things like that just because it forces fresh ideas, but that tuning isn't as practical as they make it out to be. It's kind of a joke to call it "new STANDARD tuning", because I can assure you...it will never be a standard.
 
Yeah its not that good, but for certain stuff it is. Like if u play a 1-3-5 pattern on the low strings then thats the whole feel of the tuning. Its like Butterfly Effect style music, or well thats what I get out of it. And just because they come from here doesnt mean I like their music :S.

I'll be changing back to standard tomorrow.
 
Mitch, you probably already know theory on guitar....

but umm...i don't wanna leave your request unanswered so.....have you ever worked with secondary dominant chords? you should grab a jazz piece...like "All of Me" (it's easy, cuz it's in the key of C) and work out all the secondary domininant chords on there...just to umm..improve your theory? lol i don't know; but you probably already know this stuff.


edit: oops, i just remembered you don't like jazz :p
 
Mystique1721 said:
Mitch, you probably already know theory on guitar....

but umm...i don't wanna leave your request unanswered so.....have you ever worked with secondary dominant chords? you should grab a jazz piece...like "All of Me" (it's easy, cuz it's in the key of C) and work out all the secondary domininant chords on there...just to umm..improve your theory? lol i don't know; but you probably already know this stuff.


edit: oops, i just remembered you don't like jazz :p
Click to expand...

I actually learnt about those once when I was in college but it ended up being rather pointless to me when I understood what it was. Can't remember it now though.

Isn't it just D7?
 
D7 is one of the secondary dominants in C, V7/V to be more specific (read as "five-seven of five"). A secondary dominant chord is just a dominant chord built off of any note that is in the key that doesn't form a dominant chord when it occurs naturally in the key. In other words, a secondary dominant chord is a dominant chord that has a diatonic root (the exception to the rule, in a major key, is of course the V chord, which isn't a SECONDARY dominant because it occurs naturally)

So for example lets look at a D7 in the key of C. The note "D" occurs naturally in the key of C, but when a diatonic 7th chord is built off of it diatonically, it is a Dm7. By turning it into a dominant 7th, you make it a secondary dominant. When you change it to a dominant, it then wants to resolve to G chord. Here is the list of secondary dominants (in C major for sake of simplicity)

C7= V7/IV, wants to resolve to F major
D7= V7/V, wants to resolve to G major
E7= V7/iv, wants to resolve to A minor
A7= V7/ii, wants to resolve to D minor
B7= V7/iii, wants to resolve to E minor


As you probably noticed, V7/vii doesn't exist. The reason for that is that in addition to having a diatonic root, the note a perfect forth above (or a perfect 5th below)the root must also be diatonic. A secondary dominant will always want to resolve to a chord with a diatonic root. In order for V7/vii to exist in a major key, the chord (in c major still) would have to be F#7, which doesn't work in because it doesn't have a diatonic root. You will see a dominant seventh built on the 4th scale degree quite often (V7/bvii), however it technically isn't a secondary dominant because it doesn't want to resolve to a chord with a diatonic root.

Secondary dominants occur WAY too often A LOT of styles to view them as pointless.

"but meedley....what about T3H M3TAL!!!11!!!11 R0XX0R5!!!!???//??"

thanks for asking. Secondary dominants occur in a lot of metal, especially one in particular. ESPECIALLY in minor keys. You know this already (i promise you do), but you my not have consiously recognised it as a secondary dominant. In a minor key, the chord built from the 5th scale degree occurs naturally as a minor chord. However, in classical music, a lot of neo-classical metal (yngwie anyone?), jazz, etc., the V chord in a minor key shows up all the time as a Dominant 7th chord. The difference between a minor 7th chord and a dominant 7th chord is the third. The third of the V chord is the seventh of the key, so when you raise the third (making either a major triad or a domiant 7th chord) you are raising the seventh of the key. Thus, giving us our beloved harmonic minor scale. And as we all know, harmonic minor= T3H SHR3DD0RZ OMGZ!!!!!!.
 
Yeah I read up on that. I looked at an example in a Mozart piece snce it was all on Wikipedia.

Turns out I was thinking of something else when I said it was pointless and mentioned D7. :p
 
Could some one please explain how to develop the five positions of the major and minor scale. No i'm not talking about the moveable position scales, but lets see the key of A has five positions, each key has five position has five scales, unless we are talking about 3 notes per string which has 7 different scale types, but how do you go on finding the five position of the tonality of the scales. Its very complicated and i'm sure i didnt quite explain myself right. But could any one help me or show me the five different scales please. Thank you:kickass:
 
Well, if I understand correctly what you're referring to are the modes of each scale. Since I suck at explaining things, I'll just advise you to buy these:

01BooksDVDs.jpg


I have yet to buy the DVDs, but these books are a great help.
 
MJRfan1 said:
Could some one please explain how to develop the five positions of the major and minor scale. No i'm not talking about the moveable position scales, but lets see the key of A has five positions, each key has five position has five scales, unless we are talking about 3 notes per string which has 7 different scale types, but how do you go on finding the five position of the tonality of the scales. Its very complicated and i'm sure i didnt quite explain myself right. But could any one help me or show me the five different scales please. Thank you:kickass:
Click to expand...


I don't really get whatever it is that you're asking (though I suppose if you already understood it really well you wouldn't be here asking about it:loco: ), but it sounds liek you're asking about the CAGED system? If that rings a bell let us know and I'll elaborate on what that is.
 
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