Top 10 Heavy Metal and NWOBHM Albums

[V.V.V.V.V.]

*was not black metal as we see it now. However, I see it as historically accurate to consider them both black metal and not black metal (historical revisionism aims to rewrite history accurately given more current factual evidence to put things into perspective). I usually just say proto-black or 1st-wave BM. They mean the same thing tbh.

 

[AchrisK]

Was not black metal in that it was not called black metal, because nothing was called black metal at the time. You may make an argument that Venom was being called black metal because of their album title, but Fate was so different than Venom, and there was no connection between them, unless by evil little kids who gravitated toward the most evil lyrics. And that is the only way I see those two bands related in history, and toward the future.

Furthermore, the musical identity of black metal (as in the 2nd wave, when it was widely called black metal) doesn't seem connected to the so called first wave. The aural techniques and structure are very different, aside from being metal. So again I only see ideology connecting the first wave to the rest of it.

 

[The Black Prince]

Think about it logically. Every member of the band had a background in prog acts. Musically, the band put heavy metal riffs into prog-rock structures. Historically, no significant later black metal acts cite them as an important influence (nor can their sound be detected in the work of any important black metal bands), and they appeared too late, with a sound and an underlying content too little removed from basic heavy metal to have been important in any event. The presence of Satanic lyrical content (the importance of which within black metal has been vastly overstated) is the only significant area of convergence between Fate and black metal.

Even here, it should be noted that the way black metal bands have actually used Satanic imagery has been far different from the way in which that imagery is used in Mercyful Fate's work. In black metal, Satan functions as a metaphor for transgressive nihilism. As an emblem of violence, death and the violation of taboos, Satan is the symbol of vitality unrestrained by artificial moral constructs. He is an impersonal figure who ultimately represents both the Will to Power and man in a natural state.

Mercyful Fate's treatment of Satan and Satanic imagery is much less sophisticated, and follows in the well-worn path of earlier generations of rock and metal. Here, Satan functions almost solely as a figure of rebellion and as the personification of the (democratic - puke) ideal of individualism. Far from being an impersonal figure, Mercyful Fate's Satan is the rock star stand-in who shocks and delights, and Satan as a personality is central to the band's lyrical stance. It just ain't black metal, kid.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I think you just pulled that out of your ANUS. That sounds pre-written in some essay somewhere on the main site.

 

[The Black Prince]

Not at all. It was composed 'at the keyboard,' as they say. The distinction is an important one (again, similarities with the case of Deicide are obvious), and not so easily dismissed.

 

[HaggardBastard]

Either that or he's Prozak himself (!).

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

It's Falco(nsbane) tbh.

Anyway, I understand what you're saying but the problem is that there are some bands who are definitely black metal (stylistically/musically speaking) who use Satan as an avatar for rebellion and not "transgressive nihilism." Not all black metal bands are super into deep occult philosophy; some want to have fun and praise Satan. So are they not black metal now? The distinction is there but I think you're overstating it and claiming it to be the be-all-end-all of what is considered black metal. Maybe you should make a better case for Mercyful Fate et al not being black metal? It is the same thing with, as you mention, Deicide, who utilize Satanic/anti-Christian imagery and lyrics but are definitely not stylistically black metal and have more in common with the punishing rhythms of death metal than the (usually) passive-aggressive tone of most black metal.

As such, I don't believe for one second that there is a "catch-all" concept for black metal and believe it to be more of a feeling than a musically defined genre (though it is probably just circumstance and worldly influence which causes most BM bands to sound like they have a unified style), especially when referencing 1st-wave/proto BM bands.

 

[HaggardBastard]

Either that or he's Prozak himself (!).

I was kidding.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

How the heck was I supposed to know that?

 

[waif]

Musically, I don't think Mercyful Fate were a big influence on black metal, but lyrically they certainly were, and they kinda pushed the envelope. I'd say stuff like Venom, Celtic Frost, and Bathory are far, far more evident as influences on black metal.

 

[AchrisK]

I remember talking to Prozak way back in the day, like in the mid 90's on the newsgroup alt.rock-n-roll.metal.death. He went by "Goat" at the time. At least I think that was him.

 

[HaggardBastard]

How the heck was I supposed to know that?

The exclamation point in parantheses? Your mental tone of voice you read the sentence with? I don't know. Not a big deal.

I completely agree with WeAreInFlames. Mercyful Fate bears little to no stylistic similarities to black metal proper, while Venom do. Nevertheless, some sort of case can be made for Mercyful Fate being a black metal band. I think V.V.V.V.V. said it best: they may have not been a black metal band at the time, but they are (somewhat) now. Same for Celtic Frost/Hellhammer. It's simple historical revisionism. Good one V5.

 

[The Black Prince]

It's Falco(nsbane) tbh.

Anyway, I understand what you're saying but the problem is that there are some bands who are definitely black metal (stylistically/musically speaking) who use Satan as an avatar for rebellion and not "transgressive nihilism."

Certainly bands like Dimmu Borgir and Cradle of Filth use Satanic and occult content in that way, but then, these are basically old style heavy metal bands veiled in some superficially 'black metal' aesthetic elements, which would just seem to prove my point about Mercyful Fate (heavy metal, not black metal). None of the historically or creatively significant black metal bands have used Satanic content so frivolously, so why even bring up the creative non-entities?

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

OK, I can see your point now that you've picked two bands that obviously have nothing musically in league with black metal (except perhaps some of the earlier stuff which I am sure you're not particularly referencing) to illustrate it. "Creatively significant" is a nice euphemism for "bands I think are good" also. Perhaps try harder and use bands that actually play black metal in the old style but do it in a "Satan is so rebellious" kind of way, THEN actually try to make a cohesive point? I know what you're saying, but you aren't using the correct examples. I want to let you give some relevant ones before I start namedropping bands like Dark Funeral and...oops (then again I guess you could make the argument that they're not black metal, but have fun trying to put them in another genre they could fit in accurately).

@HaggardBastard: Thanks, but I think you are confusing what I am saying, to be honest. I don't particularly follow that MF and related Satanic heavy metal bands are "black metal" any more so than Deicide are now, and that's where my form of historical revisionism would come into play. You're saying the opposite of what I mean, just pointing it out For the record, I can definitely fall in line with the way of thinking that MF and co. are "black metal" in a "proto-" or "1st wave" sense but I don't consider them to be black metal by sound/by what it has become over the years. I believe it to be an accurate criticism of the genre's evolution (which is startlingly unique, to say the least), but I highly respect everything BM has gone through and wouldn't want to blaspheme (heh) the old ways by saying that Venom are not black metal; they may not be BM in the sense of how we speak of it today, just as Possessed aren't the same kind of death metal we now talk about (Venom is even further removed though and that's where black metal's odd extrapolated evolution fits in).

I think it is perfectly fair (nay, healthy) to use current factual knowledge to change how we think of older music, and I don't think black metal is exempt from this in the least. I think it is much more important, though, to follow the line of thinking that the 1st wave of Black Metal was not what black metal would eventually become and that the progenitors of the music were unable to see exactly what they had spurred into creation at the time. I hope people get what I'm saying.

2000000th edit: ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THIS should go in the Black Metal thread. Further points of discussion on this topic will be moved into that thread, but I'd rather you just quote things from here with references/links to this thread, as I will keep the current posts on this topic here. Thanks.

 

[The Black Prince]

OK, I can see your point now that you've picked two bands that obviously have nothing musically in league with black metal (except perhaps some of the earlier stuff which I am sure you're not particularly referencing) to illustrate it.

Cradle of Filth and Dimmu Borgir have quite a bit more to do musically with black metal than Mercyful Fate ever did: the point is that they are still, in essence, heavy metal bands and, unlike genuine black metal acts, use Satanic/occult imagery the way heavy metal bands use it.

"Creatively significant" is a nice euphemism for "bands I think are good" also.

Hardly that. 'Creatively significant' indicates just that: significance. It's not a measure of whether I like a band or not, but a measure of historical impact, which is a simple matter of fact. There are a handful of black metal bands pretty much universally acknowledged to be the bands that created and defined the genre as it exists - Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Bathory, Mayhem, Burzum, Darkthrone, Immortal, Emperor etc. - none of whom use Satanic imagery purely for shock value or as an emblem of personal rebellion.

Perhaps try harder and use bands that actually play black metal in the old style but do it in a "Satan is so rebellious" kind of way, THEN actually try to make a cohesive point?

There's no such thing. All the bands that use Satanic imagery in this way - Marduk, Cradle of Filth, Dimmu Borgir, Dark Funeral, later Dissection etc. - are fundamentally heavy metal bands who make use of thin veneer of black metal technique. All real black metal bands operate quite differently.

 

[Zephyrus]

I should have known this can of worms was prone to be opened by my question. I questioned those two bands' statuses as heavy metal, NOT black metal. It's well-established that they are black metal. My only question was if they could still be classified just as much in another genre. So now, discuss only why they are HEAVY METAL.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Why is it that black metal seems to be the only genre where there isn't a fine line transitioning the genres?

 

[The Ozzman]

I am listening to Satan - Court in the Act and it is fucking awesome. Holy shit.

 

[Zephyrus]

Why is it that black metal seems to be the only genre where there isn't a fine line transitioning the genres?

Ask in the Black Metal thread.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Don't tell me what to do.