Varg Vikernes is a free man

[AeonicSlumber]

Like how homosexuality is an abomination but touching little boys is okay? hahaha

 

[Shadow77]

Like how homosexuality is an abomination but touching little boys is okay? hahaha

That or one that happened to me personally..."Your going to hell because you desecrated gods temple by having tattoos..." Told to me by a middle aged man that got his rocks off with 15yr olds...

 

[Tyra]

They are there to recruit more mindless drones to Christianity and shouldn't be there in the first place. And your whole argument about "some of my ancestors built churches so therefore you should show some respect" is like saying "some of my ancestors were Nazis and shot down innocent people into mass graves with blood sweat and tears... show some respect!"

Well, the way I recall it, they're there to praise God and make him a nice house (officially, anyhow, although I've a sneaking suspicion you're right...). In any case, what I'm getting at is that the churches in Sweden are apparently not very good at recruiting more mindless drones, else they'd actually have people in them on Sundays. So, why burn down something nobody remembers how to use? Especially when it's a building that's like 900 years old and contains some pretty cool things. Some churches just simply get dismanteled. What's wrong with that? Why desecrate things that supposedly belong to all the people? It's your own fucking stuff you're destroying (if you're Swedish). Things don't work the same way over there as they do over here, where churches are owned by this group or that. Those in the faith will just go somewhere else.
The idea behind Varg's thing was to do to unto the Christians what they'd done to his ancestors. Hence my thing about the ancestors. He started that line of thinking, so I was only trying to explain that there is another side to that coin.
Which is not to say that I do not believe in respecting my ancestors...

 

[Hagg]

Tyra, did you read my PM?

 

[Hagg]

Btw, i think that one should not burn down churches, just because of their cultural value, not because of any ancestors.
Because that would imply that us western europeans should not buy any AA music because our ancestors suffered a lot from the norsemen. ;o)

 

[Spanish_Lass]

Since I don't want to give him my money and support his racist ass ideologies, I downloaded his stuff. Respect the art, not the artist.

I couldn't care less if the buildings were culturally significant. They are there to recruit more mindless drones to Christianity and shouldn't be there in the first place

Ok... let me get this straight, you are all up for respecting the art, so burning it down artistic and cultural heritage is OK by you. Yep, that makes a lot of sense. Oh, how easy it is to diss historical heritage when you come from a country that hardly has any.

Like how homosexuality is an abomination but touching little boys is okay? hahaha

Actually, no, you will find its the other way round.

 

[Shadow77]

Btw, i think that one should not burn down churches, just because of their cultural value, not because of any ancestors.
Because that would imply that us western europeans should not buy any AA music because our ancestors suffered a lot from the norsemen. ;o)

Fuck since a 1/3 of my ancestory is native american I would be 7 shades of screwed and not able to buy any record *cry*

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Ok... let me get this straight, you are all up for respecting the art, so burning it down artistic and cultural heritage is OK by you. Yep, that makes a lot of sense. Oh, how easy it is to diss historical heritage when you come from a country that hardly has any.

a church, of any religion, is a dangerous thing in the first place. It's a symbol that represents corruption, bigotry, and lies.

Also adding that music is intangible and is solely an extension of artistic creativity. A church might have artistic qualities, like the architecture itself, but its PURPOSE is to further organized religion. So you've made a ridiculous comparison.

Actually, no, you will find its the other way round.

Um no. Have you read the news in the last 10 years about Catholic priests molesting kids? Hell, we've even had politicians who were anti gay-marriage because of their retarded beliefs that were later caught for hitting on kids (see Mark Foley).

 

[AeonicSlumber]

I surmise that all of you Europeans (and even Canadians) really will never understand where I am coming from because you guys live in countries where religion is much more lax. Over here, it's completely out of control and has been for many years.

 

[amon666]

I surmise that all of you Europeans (and even Canadians) really will never understand where I am coming from because you guys live in countries where religion is much more lax. Over here, it's completely out of control and has been for many years.

Where are you from?

 

[AeonicSlumber]

US and A. Some of my Swedish friends for example, have seen movies like Religulous and Jesus Camp and have nightmares, telling me "there's no way this shit is real is it? There are people like this in America?!" But it is, and there are! And what's worse is that it infects our politics and everyday life. We're supposed so sympathize with and respect people who value the pope more than they do the President and think we are at war with Islam. People that tell us that homosexuality is an abomination and that they shouldn't be allowed to marry (and in the 70s and 80s, basic civil rights altogether). People that tell us that women who get raped should be forced to keep the baby because having an abortion is a sin. People who not only believe evolution is a lie, but actually lobby to get creationism taught in schools. I say fuck them. And if a few crazy dumbass kids blow up a church in a fit of angst, I'm not going to complain. If your fucking "house of God" is your cultural heritage, the very house that furthers opinions like the ones mentioned and you DEFEND IT, then I don't give a damn.

 

[Tyra]

Tyra, did you read my PM?

Yes, I did, finally - been sick on bed rest for about two months. Sadly behind in the e-mail reply department.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

I, for one, am quite sympathetic to Varg. May his remaining years bring him happiness.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

I, for one, am quite sympathetic to Varg. May his remaining years bring him happiness.

See people should be slinging shit at this dude for this comment and his signature to contextualize it. Not me.

 

[Spanish_Lass]

Also adding that music is intangible and is solely an extension of artistic creativity. A church might have artistic qualities, like the architecture itself, but its PURPOSE is to further organized religion. So you've made a ridiculous comparison.

Right, so because the artistic expression that you recognise Varg's music to be is influenced by his anti-christian outlook, but IF it happens to be connected to an ideology that is not offensive to your sensitive self, it is OK?

So according to yourself, if a church is a listed building (which means the SECULAR government says it has to be preserved as a heritage site), and no longer used for religious services, and converted into flats, a government building or a shop- like it happens in the UK- you should go ahead and burn it BECAUSE its original purpose was to further religion? Where do you draw the line?

Um no. Have you read the news in the last 10 years about Catholic priests molesting kids? Hell, we've even had politicians who were anti gay-marriage because of their retarded beliefs that were later caught for hitting on kids (see Mark Foley).

Um, yeah, I can tell you the Catholic Church recognises that homosexuality is a naturally ocurring thing. And they do condemn acting upon it- It so happens that pockets of kiddie fondling have existed geographically, normally because of a tolerant regional bishop was in charge. Seven shades of wrong- oh yes. But dump all Catholics in the same bag- just as wrong. Just like saying all Americans are illiterate fundamentalists (although your last post seems to suggest a significant number of them are) or that all Satanists and Black Metallers go around burning churches.)

Dude, extremes are just wrong.

 

[Tyra]

Hey, now, we're not slinging shit at you, we're discussing ideas back and forth. At least I am. Kind of figured that's what forums are for. If you'd posted doorknob replies and such, I would not have bothered replying. I don't feed trolls, I just look like one.

And you are right, the US is nothing like Sweden (and besides, it's slightly o/t, since Varg is Norwegian, but he did insire Swedish kids to burn Swedish churches). Canada is somewhere in between the two (mind you, that depends on where you live, which can also be said for the US). That was kind of the point I was trying to make, too, with my previous post. You can't really compare the two, since churches in the US are owned by private persons/groups and so on, and religion is very much an issue still. Fine, I'm not saying there are no religious people in Sweden, and I believe the numbers of practising Christians are higher per capita in Norway than in Sweden, but I have no idea about DK, Finland and Iceland any more (lots has changed since I moved away). All I meant was that in terms of attracting followers, churches (as in the building) don't really work these days. I'm not sure they even work as a PR tool over here, either, for that matter. Have you seen some of the monstrosities erected in the name of religion today?? Yuck. God's flock attract new followers by providing free "rock concerts" and chastity dances and so on instead, and the good old brain washing by TV worsk great, too, but I don't think many arenas or TV stations are blown up for putting on Megadeth concerts and showing Seventh Heaven.
Anyhow, what I am after is that I'd not destroy a 1000-year old adobe building erected by some Native American tribe, or deface Aboriginal rock paintings in Australia, nor would I consider it a great feat of excellence to distroy a 1000-year old church, synagogue or mosque simply on the basis that whoever created it might attract a religious following. Voltaire said that if God didn't exist, he'd have to be invented. I really believe that if there were no churches, there would be some other religious monument in their place. What makes the church special is the intrisic value in the art and workmanship that it contains. And sometimes, we keep things around just because there is history attached to it that we never want to forget - Bergen Belsen and Auschwitz for example. To me, going into a church reminds me of why I am not a Christian, as in the opposite of converting me. I can appreciate the art and the beauty of the things in it, but it gives me the heebie jeebies to think about all the evils done in the name of that faith. A mosque and a synagogue has much the same effect on me, only the last mosque I was in did not allow the women to see any of the beutiful things, as we had to sit behind a screen. I did not feel like I wanted to convert after that. That's not what it's about for me. I just don't think it's right for someone in this day and age to destroy someone elses property. I prefer to fight them on my own turf, with my brain and my words. If someone attacks me physically, then that's a different game, but at this point, it's a war of words.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Oh no, I know Swedes who are indeed Christian as well as Christian Finns as well some of which I consider to be close friends. However, from what I was told (mainly by non-Christian Swede friends), religion is not nearly as big of a deal over there as it is here. It doesn't necessarily seep into their policy like it does here, etc.

I've been in mosques, synagogues, churches, hindu and buddhist temples. For the most part, these places were quite striking in their appearances and I respect the architecture and the sculptures and such, but overall, especially in the first three aforementioned buildings, I felt threatened. I felt as if I was an outsider impeding on these people's practices and that unless I join up with them, I'm not welcome.

I agree -- I wouldn't destroy adobe huts or aboriginal rock paintings either. Hell, I wouldn't destroy ANYTHING! I'm a pretty docile dude. BUT, churches are a bit different. At least here... So that's why I said that I don't think Europeans would understand where I am getting at.

And I doubt you look like a troll hahaha.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Right, so because the artistic expression that you recognise Varg's music to be is influenced by his anti-christian outlook, but IF it happens to be connected to an ideology that is not offensive to your sensitive self, it is OK?

I listen to some NSBM as well and I am as anti-NS as they come. When it comes to music, I don't care about the ideologies of the artist as long as the music is pleasing to me. Hell I listen to some Christian bands too like Alethian and I have some buddies in the Christian metal scene. I don't care. As I said, I respect their right to have an opinion even though I disagree with it vehemently.

So according to yourself, if a church is a listed building (which means the SECULAR government says it has to be preserved as a heritage site), and no longer used for religious services, and converted into flats, a government building or a shop- like it happens in the UK- you should go ahead and burn it BECAUSE its original purpose was to further religion? Where do you draw the line?

A building that is used for religious services and congregations and furthers religion is a meaningless building in my eyes. I don't care what happens to it, whether some nut jobs burn it down or a construction team bulldozes it into oblivion.

Um, yeah, I can tell you the Catholic Church recognises that homosexuality is a naturally ocurring thing. And they do condemn acting upon it- It so happens that pockets of kiddie fondling have existed geographically, normally because of a tolerant regional bishop was in charge. Seven shades of wrong- oh yes. But dump all Catholics in the same bag- just as wrong. Just like saying all Americans are illiterate fundamentalists (although your last post seems to suggest a significant number of them are) or that all Satanists and Black Metallers go around burning churches.)

Dude, extremes are just wrong.

The Catholic church is responsible for tons of bullshit, BUT it's way worse over here than it is there. For example, the pope spoke against the Iraq war but there are tons of pro-war Catholics. What the Church condemns over there is sometimes ignored over here. You obviously have no idea what goes on here as far as Christians/Catholics furthering their bullshit and trying to get it made as policy. We were founded on secularism, with a constitutional wall separating Church from State -- yet the countries the founding fathers fled from due to their overtly religious tendencies back then are now more secular than America.

Not all Americans are illiterate fundamentalists, but a TON are. That's how Bush got elected for two terms, and it's one of the reasons why McCain enlisted Palin as his potential VP; so that he could appeal to the massive bible-thumping moron vote.

There are fundamentalist churches in the south that have THOUSANDS in attendance. Some of these places look like stadiums Metallica would play at. I've seen footage of some of these sermons given over there where they are TOLD to get involved in politics and vote based on their religious beliefs. Reagan himself approved and encouraged this, as Christians didn't really vote prior to him.

edit: and you do realize the sentence "extremes are just wrong" is in it of itself an extreme? Some extremes are justified.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

See people should be slinging shit at this dude for this comment and his signature to contextualize it. Not me.

Yet they are not. Your idiocy greatly diminishes your credibility.

 

[waif]

Must be the 5th time I said in this thread that I don't care about dude's beliefs. Should learn to read ASAP.

I wasn't talking about you. You're not the center of the universe.

But as an atheist, if they are going to help impede religion then props to them.

Do you think they had any fucking impact on religion? Because they didn't/

As I said, I respect their right to have an opinion even though I disagree with it vehemently.

Yet you support church burning, which is the attempt to violently oppress someone's opinion.

A building that is used for religious services and congregations and furthers religion is a meaningless building in my eyes.

As a building that has stood for some thousand years, it gains some value from its age, and it certainly has aesthetic value. Anyhow, if you wanted to bulldoze the thing to make way for a hospital that'd be one thing, but to say "it was okay to blow it up in an act of terrorism (and it was terrorism) because I don't approve of what it was used for" is entirely different.

The Catholic church is responsible for tons of bullshit.

And the Vikings killed and raped stuff. So why don't I shoot AA down on stage in order to pay them back for fucking with some of my Irish ancestors?

Not all Americans are illiterate fundamentalists, but a TON are.

You know, there are a lot but it's not as bad as it looks. For one thing, they're generally poor and uneducated and don't vote as much as they should and are fat, so we liberal atheist northeast elite have disproportionate influence over the rest of the country. Secondly, "illiterate" is just dumb because the American literacy rate is about 99%.

I've seen footage of some of these sermons given over there where they are TOLD to get involved in politics and vote based on their religious beliefs.

OMFG reallies? People with influence telling people how to vote?

edit: and you do realize the sentence "extremes are just wrong" is in it of itself an extreme? Some extremes are justified.

How about this: extremes are usually fucking stupid bullshit spat out by idiots who didn't think it through but will defend it to the death in order to avoid admitting their error?