What do you think about Iconoclast?

[Kenneth R.]

Man, reading that was like going through some legal text or something.

Hah, sorry. That's how I write.

But those assumptions were pretty accurate, right? Meaning that albums that are like Iconoclast and you consider really good don't exist, right?

Thought about this.. yeah, you are right.

This is all perfectly sensible. What's a little less sensible, however, is the way you jump at the conclusion that SX has to be consciously dumbing their music down just because you feel that it sounds dumbed down. You're right about there being no need to come to terms with an album you don't think is all that good, but do come to terms with how very probable it is that SX really did make every effort to make Iconoclast as good as they thought it could be and are proud of it.

I guessed that it was a little of both: that they tried to go more modern, and that some of the elements people are saying are dumbed down were not intentional, while others were, as part of that more modern, stripped down style. I don't doubt that the band made the album they wanted to.

 

[Sauna]

Well I don't think anybody said that. Why are you twisting/exaggerating it like that?

Some of the lyrics are plain dumbed down. You seem to enjoy that kind of thing, which is cool, not everything has to be so serious and literary. But just as you are free to like it, I am free to dislike it when it's done a certain way by a certain band without having someone, based on his own exaggeration of my opinion, constantly telling me how ridiculous the very notion of it is. Such attitude is more typical of an irrational fanatic than a fan.

I don't think I was twisting anything, just exaggerating it a bit to get my point across. Which seems to have worked out fine.

Dumbed down =/= dumb. Saying the lyrics are dumbed down implies a conscious choice by the band to do so. But I'm not going to get into this again because what I wanted to say is already so well expressed in the RuRoRul quote on the top of the page.

As for some people thinking the lyrics are dumb, I'm fine with that. They're certainly not in the same league as the best lyrics the band has written.

Also, I apologize if I'm repeating myself and it's getting annoying, but when it comes to this discussion, I think both sides are well beyond guilty of that at this point.

Edit: Upon reading the above post, I realized I might have been taking the expression "dumbed down" a bit too harshly. If you people meant something along the meaning of "simplified" or something like that, that changes the entire nature of this discussion and makes most of what I wrote pointless.

Edit 2: The post below is fucking epic.

Edit 3: It was deleted. Such a tragedy.

 

[Adam Fiske]

I totally understand their decision to keep all the tracks, because we all would drop different tracks. I would drop Bastards and Heretic, what I consider two of the worst songs they've ever done. Bastards is just weak, Heretic is fine musically but man the vocals rhythms in the chorus and middle part are terrible. I think End of Innocence is one of the best songs they've done, it's definitely in my top 8. All together I definitely like Iconoclast more than Paradise Lost, but not more than Odyssey or V.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I would drop IC to a 3-track EP.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

^ IC, WAIL, and Reign?

 

[Marwen]

Not a bad idea.

 

[Kenneth R.]

^ IC, WAIL, and Reign?

yep

 

[AsoTamaki]

Does anybody else dig Dehumanized? the background riffs during the solo, when you really listen to them, are awesome.

Yeah, for sure. It's even got that delayed clean guitar thing going on like on "Candlelight Fantasia" and a few other songs. My favorite IC guitar solo by far. The part where it shifts to playing over the pre-chorus section was one of the few moments when I thought "ah, now this sounds like Symphony X." If not for the crappy verses, this would definitely be one of my top 3 from the album.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

It's even got that delayed clean guitar thing going on like on "Candlelight Fantasia" and a few other songs.

During the solo? I think that's the keyboard, but I could be wrong.

But yeah, definitely the best solo on the album. I've never heard MJR play like that before.

 

[AsoTamaki]

Could definitely be keys, but it particularly sounds just like the "Champion of Ithaca" verses where the delayed single notes are split between the left and right channels to create that nice effect. I don't think Pinnella uses a tone like that anywhere else, does he? Hard to tell exactly with all those heavy guitar layers though. Lol.

 

[Marwen]

this is why mjr should not commit the crime of not doing another solo album.

I believe it's guitar btw. Not exactly the Candlelight/Champion of Ithaca thing, just similar.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Guitarist solo albums tend to heavily feature guitar. Which, unless you're a guitar pornographer, is f'king boring to listen to.

 

[AsoTamaki]

Yeah, but I would assume that he'll want to do something different from the band so don't expect The Dark Chapter Part II (although that would actually be different from recent Symphony X). I'd expect him to explore some orchestral stuff too since he doesn't just play guitar, you know.

I believe it's guitar btw. Not exactly the Candlelight/Champion of Ithaca thing, just similar.

Yeah, not exactly the same. It's cool to hear the evolution of his playing in that small characteristic though. It's the same basic technique/idea, but it's been modified and improved on each time.

MJR #13
Premonition
Candlelight
Odyssey

I think those are the only songs he's done that on. Right?

So yeah, pretty sure it's guitar. Pinnella plays that part live, but he just uses a piano-ish tone and there's no delay or anything. So I think it's just because Romeo can't play 4 guitar parts at once live.

 

[Marwen]

^yeah it's a cool Romeo signature thing. Those are the songs he's done it on I believe.

I'd expect him to explore some orchestral stuff too since he doesn't just play guitar, you know.

Absolutely. I don't want it just for the guitar stuff. Even some vocals (by Russel or some vocalist friend of Romeo's) would be welcome. But his guitar, keyboards, and orchestra arrangements are what I'm most interested in.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

Hard to tell exactly with all those heavy guitar layers though. Lol.

It sure is. I actually think that solo section sounds better live, since there's less going on. I first heard the song live before I heard the album version, and I like how open the section sounds with the rhythm section holding down the fort. I'd never heard them do something like that before.

Guitarist solo albums tend to heavily feature guitar. Which, unless you're a guitar pornographer, is f'king boring to listen to.

I'm not a guitar pornographer and I agree. What I love about Symphony X (well, the old stuff, anyway) is that even though MJR is the band's main writer, the guitar wasn't always in the foreground like it is with a lot of other progressive metal bands. He knew how to hang back sometimes, which is something a lot of guitarists simply don't do.

 

[Marwen]

obviously an MJR solo project or DVD would be separate from Symphony X and targeted to guitar players mainly.

So if he does release one, you guys are free not to get it if you're not into the guitar. A lot of people are.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I am a guitarist primarily, and yeah, I won't get it if it is guitar-oriented.

 

[Liampie]

Absolutely. I don't want it just for the guitar stuff. Even some vocals (by Russel or some vocalist friend of Romeo's) would be welcome. But his guitar, keyboards, and orchestra arrangements are what I'm most interested in.

It's called 'Iconoclast'.

 

[Marwen]

if you mean the album, no.

if the song, hell yeah, I wouldn't mind an album full of iconoclasts.

 

[donKyle]

A bunch of 11 minute songs? It could be good. It could also be bad!