What the Hell does *no flow* mean??

Originally posted by Morningrise
No flow is when a song has many stops in the middle to only change to another section. Listen to songs like Black Rose Immortal, and tell me those FLOW, the guy is right to an extent, and you guys are being dumb.
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Good to see someone was willing to answer the question!




A lot of Opeth's work is based on riffs, a section of a song is a riff and a riff is a section of a song, this results in numerous different sections of a song. A band like In Flames have a group of closely related riffs that they interchange between to create their songs, this usually means at most 2 different themes per song. Its a difference in aims, if In Flames want to express a different feeling or emotion then they write a different song, whereas Opeth throws it all together in one big story. With I.F. each riff is a natural progression from the last, still feels closely related, and can easily flow back into the previous riff (and often does). With Opeth a riff change quite often means a mood change, and they only ever string a few riffs together of a similar feel.

In truth Opeth only manages to avoid sounding completely disjointed because they are pretty damn good at transitions... the transations make each riff flow into the next, but then the riffs still remain largely unrelated, in most cases you couldnt retreat back into the previous riff like you can in I.F. songs.

The main point is that both bands have flow, but Opeth (and a large portion of other metal bands) are writing music in a completely different way than your gothenburg metal or nu-metal... and to appreciate and understand the music you've got to listen to it in the way it was intended. When you listen to I.F you expect to hear 1 or 2 very closely related themes for an entire song, if you listen to opeth in the same way you will be greatly dissapointed and you will see Opeth as a bunch of unrelated riffs. I guess its just that with I.F and similar, you listen to a song at a time... where as with Opeth you listen to a riff at a time.

And yes, every band is boring in some ways, you're friend just isnt listening for the same things from music as opeth provide, and so they arent for him. Everyone here, including you and me, finds some other music really boring that is actually extremely interesting... The key is to not have such a subjective view about what music should be, and not think that what you get from music is what is right for everyone else. But i think 99% of people cant do that, this board is packed with people of the same attitude as your friend, attacking and laughing about other bands based purely on their own subjective views of the music. Take a look at any thread on Dream Theater or Tool and you'll see what i mean.. even the replies in this thread show the same attitude that your friend has when he says "poopeth". In the end everyone just needs to be more accepting.... you listen to what you like, they listen to what they like and you appreciate that, whether you understand it or not, if they enjoy their music then thats all that matters.
 
To the last guy:
VEry well stated. I understand and agree with you. Sometimes I still find it hard to respect others tastes expecially when they insult yours first. Does that mean your logic applies to rap and pop? I can't find anyhting interesting in that, I can't rspect it. But ina ny other genre I can find things to disrespect, which doesn't mean i like it. I think Jazz has great ideas but I won't put it down. I just don't enjoy the timbre of horn instruemnts (i.e, particularly the trumpet)


Ive read some of your posts and you bring up some interesting ideas. I'd like to talk music with you sometime.
My screen name for AIM: DeathAtTheGates
 
i agree that to the average listener, opeth's songs don't seem to have total "flow", when compared to a 3 minute slipknot pop song with the verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus fail-safe structure,
ur mates prolly just not used to prog music at all. give him some Yes, Genesis, Floyd.. probably get the same dislike he shows towards death metal...
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What the hell is this? Jesus you guys put yourself on a pedestal for listening to Opeth, you aren't that special. I happen to notice that Opeth dosn't have very good flow sometimes, so I am an "average listener", compared to one like you who is the almighty? I happen to listen to all of the band syou stated and have for years. And as a matter of a fact, Yes, Genesis, and Floyd, all have absolute perfect flow, changing seamlessly from one part to another, Opeth I think has trouble with this sometimes. People have opinions, and ones who say "oh hes too dumb for this" are just ignorant...
 
i didn't mean that... by average i meant "most", not below me... i don't think alot of opeth's stuff flows anywhere near as good as some other prog acts.

sometimes its very difficult to word what you want to express without confusing everyone. im not that great a writer, so i try to keep it simple, and sound like an idiot in the process. sorry.

i meant to draw a distinction between people that identify bad flow because they know bad flow, and people that identify bad flow because its not like what they're used to. and i think his friend falls into the latter, which is what i meant by you would likely get a similar response from him if he heard other prog rock, even prog that did flow well. and if im wrong, meh, happens all the time.
 
Originally posted by YaYoGakk
Good to see someone was willing to answer the question!




A lot of Opeth's work is based on riffs, a section of a song is a riff and a riff is a section of a song, this results in numerous different sections of a song. A band like In Flames have a group of closely related riffs that they interchange between to create their songs, this usually means at most 2 different themes per song. Its a difference in aims, if In Flames want to express a different feeling or emotion then they write a different song, whereas Opeth throws it all together in one big story. With I.F. each riff is a natural progression from the last, still feels closely related, and can easily flow back into the previous riff (and often does). With Opeth a riff change quite often means a mood change, and they only ever string a few riffs together of a similar feel.

In truth Opeth only manages to avoid sounding completely disjointed because they are pretty damn good at transitions... the transations make each riff flow into the next, but then the riffs still remain largely unrelated, in most cases you couldnt retreat back into the previous riff like you can in I.F. songs.

The main point is that both bands have flow, but Opeth (and a large portion of other metal bands) are writing music in a completely different way than your gothenburg metal or nu-metal... and to appreciate and understand the music you've got to listen to it in the way it was intended. When you listen to I.F you expect to hear 1 or 2 very closely related themes for an entire song, if you listen to opeth in the same way you will be greatly dissapointed and you will see Opeth as a bunch of unrelated riffs. I guess its just that with I.F and similar, you listen to a song at a time... where as with Opeth you listen to a riff at a time.

And yes, every band is boring in some ways, you're friend just isnt listening for the same things from music as opeth provide, and so they arent for him. Everyone here, including you and me, finds some other music really boring that is actually extremely interesting... The key is to not have such a subjective view about what music should be, and not think that what you get from music is what is right for everyone else. But i think 99% of people cant do that, this board is packed with people of the same attitude as your friend, attacking and laughing about other bands based purely on their own subjective views of the music. Take a look at any thread on Dream Theater or Tool and you'll see what i mean.. even the replies in this thread show the same attitude that your friend has when he says "poopeth". In the end everyone just needs to be more accepting.... you listen to what you like, they listen to what they like and you appreciate that, whether you understand it or not, if they enjoy their music then thats all that matters.
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Nicely said. Although I'm pretty sure if you were to direct this at the thread starters' friend you would receive a reply along the lines of 'huh?'. I agree about acceptance, but there are just some people that refuse to skim the surface at all in what they listen to, and will totally just shut out all music that is anywhere remotely more complicated than mainstream.
 
Originally posted by Smekermann


Why didn't you just fucking play him Ulver's Nattens Madrigal or Abigor's Channeling the Quintessence of Satan, and get it over with? OR CRYPTOPSY, MAN! YOU SHOULD'VE PLAYED THAT SHIT FOR HIM!!! IF HE WON'T LIKE IT THEN OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE TO KILL HIM BECAUSE HE'S A STUPID IDIOT AND HE HAS NO FUCKING TASTE, EVEN THOUGH HE OBVIOUSLY HAS NOT BEEN EXPOSED TO THIS SORT OF STYLE AND IT NEEDS TO GROW ON HIM!!1 FUCK HIM! HE LIKES *SOME* RAP! KILL KILL KILLKKILLKILKKILKILKILKKILLKILLKIL!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
1

You play him fucking Nile and then you wonder why he's not into it? Jesus fuck, man, have you ever heard of BEING EASED into a genre and not being smashed over the fucking head with it?

I don't give a shit about him not liking Opeth. Some people like it, some don't. It's not the end of the fucking world. What I find hilarious is that you list Nile as one of the bands you played for him and then you go on wondering WHY he doesn't like it. *boggle*
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WOAH WOAH WOAH!!!!!!!!

Bloody Hell, you don't have to rip my head off!!!!!!!
Why did you just blow up?? I played him Nile and he didn't like it. Big deal! I was only wondering if he liked it, or what he thought of it.

The point of this thread was to find out what *no flow* meant, and a number of people have been kind enough to explain this to me. What I really don't need is people like you telling me what I can and cant play to my friends. Your acting like theres a proper way of playing someone Nile or Opeth. Actually mate, you just stick the CD in the CD player and press *play*. You don't need to ease them into a genre (well on some occasions you do, but this is not one of them). One day I might think "Oh, I'll see what Rich makes of Nile. If he doesn't like it, thats fine. I'd just like to know which bit doesn't agree with him and why".

Now do you see where I was coming from? He said "its got no flow", and I wanted him to explain what he meant.

TO THE KIND PEOPLE THAT EXPLAINED WHAT MY FRIEND WAS
TELLING ME:

THANK YOU, IT WAS MUCH APPRECIATED!!

To Smekermann:

If your just going to shout at me and tell me why I'm "SO STUPID" to play my friend Opeth and Nile,

DON'T BOTHER!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by YaYoGakk
Good to see someone was willing to answer the question!




A lot of Opeth's work is based on riffs, a section of a song is a riff and a riff is a section of a song, this results in numerous different sections of a song. A band like In Flames have a group of closely related riffs that they interchange between to create their songs, this usually means at most 2 different themes per song. Its a difference in aims, if In Flames want to express a different feeling or emotion then they write a different song, whereas Opeth throws it all together in one big story. With I.F. each riff is a natural progression from the last, still feels closely related, and can easily flow back into the previous riff (and often does). With Opeth a riff change quite often means a mood change, and they only ever string a few riffs together of a similar feel.

In truth Opeth only manages to avoid sounding completely disjointed because they are pretty damn good at transitions... the transations make each riff flow into the next, but then the riffs still remain largely unrelated, in most cases you couldnt retreat back into the previous riff like you can in I.F. songs.

The main point is that both bands have flow, but Opeth (and a large portion of other metal bands) are writing music in a completely different way than your gothenburg metal or nu-metal... and to appreciate and understand the music you've got to listen to it in the way it was intended. When you listen to I.F you expect to hear 1 or 2 very closely related themes for an entire song, if you listen to opeth in the same way you will be greatly dissapointed and you will see Opeth as a bunch of unrelated riffs. I guess its just that with I.F and similar, you listen to a song at a time... where as with Opeth you listen to a riff at a time.

And yes, every band is boring in some ways, you're friend just isnt listening for the same things from music as opeth provide, and so they arent for him. Everyone here, including you and me, finds some other music really boring that is actually extremely interesting... The key is to not have such a subjective view about what music should be, and not think that what you get from music is what is right for everyone else. But i think 99% of people cant do that, this board is packed with people of the same attitude as your friend, attacking and laughing about other bands based purely on their own subjective views of the music. Take a look at any thread on Dream Theater or Tool and you'll see what i mean.. even the replies in this thread show the same attitude that your friend has when he says "poopeth". In the end everyone just needs to be more accepting.... you listen to what you like, they listen to what they like and you appreciate that, whether you understand it or not, if they enjoy their music then thats all that matters.
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Cheers for that! I think I may just run it past him, see what he makes of it! :)
 
LOL@Smekermann...:lol: :lol:


He has got a point though IMKC, playing him Nile would probably put him off for life, you don't go from listening to rap to listening to Nile...LOL...you need to get him used to death vocals for a start, and less heavy stuff before brutal death metal...

...Play him some Darkthrone:lol:
 
Originally posted by SADUDE
Sometimes I still find it hard to respect others tastes expecially when they insult yours first. Does that mean your logic applies to rap and pop? I can't find anyhting interesting in that, I can't rspect it. But ina ny other genre I can find things to disrespect, which doesn't mean i like it. I think Jazz has great ideas but I won't put it down. I just don't enjoy the timbre of horn instruemnts (i.e, particularly the trumpet)
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I can't respect gangsta-rap either, but I think that has rather to do with the lyrical content and the culture connected with the music. I think it's rather impossible to disrespect a melody or a song structure - it's all about the message and the people connected with it.
 
Originally posted by Smekermann


I'm not even gonna bother telling you why people need to be eased into genres, as it's quite obvious you won't understand it. So I'll just leave you with this statement: you're stupid.
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I cant believe your giving me this much crap!! Of course I know that you have to ease people into genres sometimes. Particulaly genres like Death, Black and Doom Metal. I was only playing him this to see what he made of it, I wasn't exactly thinking "hes going to be into this in no time at all".

I played him Nile to see what he made of it...I played him Opeth because I thought he might appreciate the excelent musicianship...I played him Emperor again to see what he would make of it...At the Gates because I knew he liked In Flames and Arch Enemy, and thought he may like it.

Oh and for the record, his favourite music is Thrash, Heavy Metal and a bit of Nu - Metal. He does like Slipknot, and as much as I hate saying this, Slipknot are not soft like most Nu - Metal. In fact I've read various Death Metal bands saying how Slipknot (due to their heaviness) open up peoples eyes to the world of Death Metal. So don't tell me playing him Nile is going to scare him away from the genre.

You are totally (and I mean TOTALLY) over reacting...which you seem to do in a lot of threads on Ultimate Metal.

I was asking a simple question, and waiting for a sensible answer. I got the answer, and then you started shouting unnecessarily. Whats the point?
 
Usually if im throwing a not-so-metal friend into the deep end with music i will tell them exactly why they wont like it at first. Ill tell them they'll think the vocals sound like a joke and they'll absolutely hate them, and they'll find the songs incoherant and not flowing, and if the band is really extreme ill of course say they'll honestly just hear it as noise... and then i will inform them that pretty much everyone thinks the same, but that eventually you start to understand it. So i then tell them that if they like the sound of quite a few elements (if they like some of the riffs or something) and are just turned off by these things i mention then they should keep listening and with enough exposure they will grow to love it.. however if nothing catches their interest then its most likely not worth the effort for them (plenty of other genre's out there that they are more suited to).

People have as much difficulty getting into classical music, and jazz and prog music and whatever else .... the people you are most likely to experience 'success' with, are the people who have already worked their way into a different genre already, because they then understand what its like to start off disliking music and eventually discovering its aims and seeing it in a new light.
 
haha. there's always at least one guy like Smek around on a forum, haha. Listen man, if you've got some anger management issues, take it to someone who gives a fuck... if you don't have anything constructive to say, get the fuck off the board... simple as that.
 
Originally posted by Smekermann


Um... apparently it's YOU people that are giving a fuck, not me. And why would I get off the board if it provides me with incredible amounts of comedy? Does not compute, bro =/
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to answer that last question... for the sake of the other people on this board? but oh... I seem to have forgotten that you're some lil nerd hiding behind his comp flailing insults around because he takes it too hard in the real-world... sorry to hear that, but hey, that's life. so anyway, keep posting if you will, you're keeping us amused for the most part.
 
Originally posted by Smekermann


THANKS FOR BEING THE FUCKING 102908409354th PERSON TO POINT THIS OUT.

I'll state my points however the fuck I want to. Plus, what the fuck's the point of being nice when the point goes RIGHT OVER THE OTHER PERSON'S FUCKING HEAD? Not only is it not worth fucking trying anymore, it's also annoying. It ANNOYS me to deal with fucking retards who cannot understand a basic concept like that. But that gets compensated by seing dorks get all hung up about the fact that I'm SO MEAN ON THEIR PRECIOUS FUCKING FORUM! HOLY SHIT, WE CANNOT HAVE THAT!

Stop taking yourself so fucking seriously, maybe it'll help you in dealing with "immature assholes" such as myself better.
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No the point is not going over my head, I know what the Hell your on about.

You just don't have to scream it at me and blow up in 2 seconds flat because I've said something YOU think is stupid.

Calm down man!!

Maybe if you put your point across without getting worked up (for no reason at all) people might listen to you instead of being insulted and annoyed.

Get my drift?

I just cant be bothered to talk if I'm just going to get screamed at!
 
your friend is an idiot, who has his head up his ass
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You've grown tired of your finger have you??

I think what he means is that it doesn't "FLow", in that it isn't 4/4 time throughout the whole song, it is technical and complicated, it doesn't have a constanct groove like radio songs... Play him something like Morbig Dngels "Nothing is Not", and ge will undrstnad, that song is ALL grove
 
OOOOHHHH I'M SMAKKERMANN I SAY FUCK IN EVVVERY FUCKIN SENTENCE BECAUSE IT IS FUCKIN COOL YO!!! I HATE YOU AND YOU ARE FUCKIN STUPID!!!! SO WHAT IF I WANNA BE FUCKING GAY AND WANNA FUCK EVERYONE IN DA ASS YO THAT'S FUCKIN MY FUCKING FUCK BUSINEESSSS YO!!! YOU ARE STUPID AND I'M A FUCKHEAD SO FUCKIN WHAT!!!!! YO! I'M A TROLLL AND MY IDOL IS FRED FUCKIN DURST YO, BECAUSE HE IS WHACK YO!! I DO WHATEVVA DA FUCK I WANT YO!!! BITCH
 
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