Hahahahahaa, well it was the first time I had seen it Kyle, so IMO you can still get plenty of mileage out of it! 
When someone like Andy records live gigs
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Executioner213
Ultimate Meatbag
It's been beat to death on this forum, sounds like you have some reading to do.
Triggered or not, the dude is still hitting the drums. Your comment is as valid as saying "Well...Ritchie Blackmore isn't a real guitar player because he uses distortion and a delay pedal" or "Don Airey isn't a real key player because he uses a synth and not a micd piano". It is a means to amplify a performance and to obtain artistic effect and mood. Comparing Rainbow to Arch Enemy is fucking apples and oranges: two ends of the spectrum. If you ever get a chance, watch some vids of Daniel Erlandsson *hitting* his drums and you will know he is beating the fuck out of em.
Wasn't it expressed that the guitars were DI'd and reamped afterwards? If thats the case, it doesn't mean it wasn't a rendering of the exact live performance that was filmed on that exact evening. The sound was just polished afterwards. Welcome to the new era, where getting live albums that sound almost as good as studio albums is pretty much common place, especially with extreme metal bands.
K Odell
\=/Varnisher\=/
grywolf627
Member
I'd much rather have a studio reamped (reamped mind you...not retracked) live DVD/CD anyway. Isn't it the job of us audio engineers to make the product as good sounding as possible? So what's the great sin in just polishing the performance? It's still the same notes played at the show...now it just sounds better and cleaner. And if you think this sort of thing hasn't been going on for yeeeeears.......think again. Hell, even I was doing this or some form of it back in my shitty live sound days...just for small bands in small clubs (late '80s - early 90's).
tearsofthedragon
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Hmm, funny that because the best live 'extreme' metal albums I've heard are taken straight from the mixing desk, Death live in L.A being one great example. I just think live albums should be messed with as little as possible, you want something that catches the energy of the live performance, not the sterility of the studio. SMALL overdubs can help I.E 'Live after death', but when your re-amping, re-shaping, E.Q-ing and triggering the drums on a 'live' album (and call me old fashioned) but your defeating the point of it being a live release. I've seen Arch Enemy live, and they sounded bugger-all like that live DVD, Ive also seen Rainbow and they sounded pretty much exactly like the 'live in Munich' live album, case n' point.
Morgan C
MAX LOUD PRESETS¯\(°_o)/¯
@tearsofthedragon
The energy of the live performance comes from the crowd, the volume and the visuals of the band. The mix (unless its terrible) plays a pretty small part in the energy. Get 100 people together, and play a studio album at 105dB with huge bass kicking you in the chest from good speakers, and you'll have pretty much recreated the live energy.
The energy of the live performance comes from the crowd, the volume and the visuals of the band. The mix (unless its terrible) plays a pretty small part in the energy. Get 100 people together, and play a studio album at 105dB with huge bass kicking you in the chest from good speakers, and you'll have pretty much recreated the live energy.
And for this.. I'd rather a band be decent on DVD and shit in real life than shit on both the DVD and the live performance. This doesn't pertain to just these bands (neither of which I listen to or have seen live, btw).
The Unavoidable
jättebög
One important aspect of this, is that live albums are ment to be listened to many many times over so any small defects in the sound is going to start standing out after a few listens, and after a while all you can hear is the flaws. Live albums need to be polished if you intend on listening to it more than once.
And damnit, if anyone still thinks re-amping guitars and triggering drums is "cheating" or "fake" then just become a scientologist already and surrender rational thought and logic all together.
And damnit, if anyone still thinks re-amping guitars and triggering drums is "cheating" or "fake" then just become a scientologist already and surrender rational thought and logic all together.
cobhc
Amiga Enthusiast
tearsofthedragon
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@ Morgoe, it sounds more like your trying to convince yourself than me. Firstly, if a band can't play live for shit, then don't release a 'live' album. Simple as that.
Secondly you seem to be implying that the performance of the band is the least important thing on a 'live' album, this has got to be the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard, when you go to see a band, you go to see them PERFORM the music you like, if they do this well there's an honest exchange of 'live' energy between the band and audience. This interaction is what a live album should capture; otherwise the band may as well just be miming.
If you want to listen to something perfect, don't bother leaving the house, just put the CD on.
There just seems to be some twisted logic going on here that has been bread by lazy musicianship. But that's old-school vs. new-school mentality. I guess anyone who disagrees must be a scientologist?
Secondly you seem to be implying that the performance of the band is the least important thing on a 'live' album, this has got to be the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard, when you go to see a band, you go to see them PERFORM the music you like, if they do this well there's an honest exchange of 'live' energy between the band and audience. This interaction is what a live album should capture; otherwise the band may as well just be miming.
If you want to listen to something perfect, don't bother leaving the house, just put the CD on.
There just seems to be some twisted logic going on here that has been bread by lazy musicianship. But that's old-school vs. new-school mentality. I guess anyone who disagrees must be a scientologist?
grywolf627
Member
Sorry...I really hate getting into arguements around here....but: Lazy musicianship? No one, except you, has mentioned anything about retracking parts in the studio. The rest of us are ONLY talking about reamping and triggering the drums. NOT tracking new parts. How is this lazy muscianship?
And old school vs. new school...sorry bro...but I'm calling bullshit on this as well. I'm not some noob. I went to recording school in '88. I started messing with recording well before then. I did live sound for 80's metal/hardrock bands in clubs from '89 to '91. Trust me...we were doing reamping long before the digital age. Both in studio recordings, and live recordings. I've done it my self a number of times. Sorry bro...but don't make generalized statements like "this wasn't done in the old days" unless you know what you're talking about. And by the way...bread is something you eat...not a verb.
I know that won't be the end of it...but that's my end at least. *getting off soapbox now*
Torniojaws
They call me Juha
Yeah, you should leave live albums alone when it comes to heavy editing. Maybe a triggered kick or snare, but that should be enough. I don't think reamping and fully retriggering the drums is in the spirit of a live album. Re-recording parts is a big no-no in my book. The performance is what matters most in a live performance
Funnily (or not), my favourite live recordings have been 3rd party bootlegs (aka ROIOs). They really capture the live feeling that live albums very very rarely do. Better yet if they have a good sound quality. SBD and FM recordings are sometimes too clean.
Funnily (or not), my favourite live recordings have been 3rd party bootlegs (aka ROIOs). They really capture the live feeling that live albums very very rarely do. Better yet if they have a good sound quality. SBD and FM recordings are sometimes too clean.
tearsofthedragon
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Grywolf, that was clearly a typo, and as I'm not writing a thesis here I couldn't really give a shit, try goose-stepping over someone elses spelling mistakes and missed apostrophes - besides, what would you know about spelling? You're American!
I'm not saying that every 'old' band didn't edit their live albums either, but as Torniojaws pointed out, most of the good ones didn't, and they often came directly from the sound desk, I have tons of Zeppelin bootlegs like this, and some fantastic Metallica and Dream Theater ones (that are much better than the official live releases).
I'm not saying that every 'old' band didn't edit their live albums either, but as Torniojaws pointed out, most of the good ones didn't, and they often came directly from the sound desk, I have tons of Zeppelin bootlegs like this, and some fantastic Metallica and Dream Theater ones (that are much better than the official live releases).
cobhc
Amiga Enthusiast
You're basically saying you'd rather have a DVD where when you crank it up on your Hi-Fi it sounds like shit because the bass drums are getting lost, you're getting bleed into everything else, bass it too loud, etc. Like I see on most video cam clips on youtube.
It goes back to the old chestnut of an argument that we've had on here many times where some people are so anti editing/performance enhancing that we might as well not amp anything, not use any mics, it should be a drumkit and acoustics at every gig from now on, and the vocalist will just have to shout really loud to be heard above the drums, because otherwise we're not getting a natural representation of how the instruments sound. Hell, there wouldn't be any DVD's or Video's because a video camera and however the sound is recorded isn't a real representation of how everything sounds at the gig.
tearsofthedragon
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If it sounds like shit, it sounds like shit, that's a real performance, and I'm not re-writing history. But most bootlegs sound better anyway, so you do the maths...
cobhc
Amiga Enthusiast
You do realise that probably a fair amount of those bootlegs had triggered drums? It's been going on since the 80's, triggering drums is nothing new. I think you're not realising that at most live gigs they have the drums triggered and sample replaced before even hitting the PA. Using your logic you might as well never go to a gig again, because you're not going to be seeing a "real performance".
That's my last comment on the matter, because from what I can see from your recording standards, I'm not going to gain anything from talking to you.
So does he or any mixer get any say in the rigs or RECORDING process of them?
This has gone way off topic- we all know the shenanigans that go on with MIXING live albums, last one I did I sample replaced the kick and toms, same performance but sounds alot better than the poorly recorded originals, no one complained.
This has gone way off topic- we all know the shenanigans that go on with MIXING live albums, last one I did I sample replaced the kick and toms, same performance but sounds alot better than the poorly recorded originals, no one complained.
cobhc
Amiga Enthusiast
Sorry dude, I went completely OT, I just had to rant. I can't offer an answer I'm afraid.
Grywolf, that was clearly a typo, and as I'm not writing a thesis here I couldn't really give a shit, try goose-stepping over someone else’s spelling mistakes and missed apostrophes - besides, what would you know about spelling? You're American!
Unnecessary, ignorant, and incorrect - and a little winking smiley doesn't suddenly make everything fine either, so don't try to pull that one (you might as well have said "no offense, but..." instead)
grywolf627
Member
Nah...don't worry Marcus. Doesn't bother me. I've been called a lot worse by people that like me a lot more.
