Why do people do this?

[adaher]

Edguy wasn't a generic power metal band, they continually evolved all the way up to Hellfire Club. Making an album that was a further progression from Hellfire Club would make sense for them. I don't expect Vain Glory Opera. But trying to compete with Wig Wam and the Poodles isn't going to work for them.

Days of Grays contained some concessions to the fans, most notably Flag in the Ground. It was a better album than Unia.

 

[General Zod]

Bands owe fans nothing, when it comes to new releases

No, they don't, but most bands do like money.

I suspect if most bands we listened to liked money, they wouldn't be trying to make it playing Metal. Most of the bands we listen to, actually lose money.

There are literally thousands and thousands of Metal bands out there right now. Those who are making money (from this current generation), enough to live off, you can count on both hands. And even with those bands, they could likely make more with an actual job.

As I said, at some point a band ceases to be just a few guys making music and becomes a business, often an incorporated business. At that point, the songwriters are equivalent to a corporate R&D department working on the next version of their product. And I think at some level most bands where the music is their career and they no longer have day jobs realize this. It's their business now as much as it is their passion.

While I would guess that very few of the bands spoken about in our circles ever make it to this point, the music still never becomes about what they owe their fans. When a band reaches this point, it's not about pleasing their fans, it's about pleasing the largest demographic they can, ala selling out. Ultimately, they're still not writing music to please their fans, their writing music to make money.

 

[adaher]

A band like Nightwish plays metal because they built up a fanbase playing metal. If they switched to techno-dance, they'd be starting essentially from scratch. So Nightwish making money is dependent on playing metal. There's also the matter of competing with other bands with a similar sound. Nightwish could conceivably switch from their cinematic power metal to a more goth sound like Evanescence has, but that probably wouldn't make them more money because fans that like that aren't going to buy Nightwish, they are going to buy Evanescence.

Almost all the bands in our genre that actually make money have a unique brand.

But you're right, they don't OWE fans anything. They can do whatever they want, assuming their label will accept the finished product. But for the established bands moving millions of units worldwide, I think a lot more goes into artistic choices than just art.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

I suspect if most bands we listened to liked money, they wouldn't be trying to make it playing Metal. Most of the bands we listen to, actually lose money.

There are literally thousands and thousands of Metal bands out there right now. Those who are making money (from this current generation), enough to live off, you can count on both hands. And even with those bands, they could likely make more with an actual job.

Oh my GOD, this.. every time I meet someone who wants to make it big as a "rock star" by playing metal, I want to punch them.

 

[AngraRULES]

I suspect Sonata and Edguy will be returning to form pretty soon. Fans don't mind a change in sound for the most part when it's actually an evolution of the band. But in the case of those two bands, they changed their sound just because they were tired of the old sound, not because they had anything particularly creative or new in mind. they just lost interest in speedy songs, so in Sonata's case, they played around with more tempo changes and in Edguy's case, they went hard rock. Neither band can compete with the kings of those genres, so they are kinda stuck with their power metal roots if they want to be relevant.

Do you wanna bet that both Sonata and Edguy are *NOT* going to go back to "form"?

 

[AMBR]

There are literally thousands and thousands of Metal bands out there right now. Those who are making money (from this current generation), enough to live off, you can count on both hands.

Yea, and they have all tried to "friend" me on Myspace. Ugh. Every now and then I'll check one out, but most are weak, immature and cliche. It's the strongly unique ones with true talent and skill that usually make it. But frankly, I forgot the intended direction of this thread. Bands selling out or fans bitching no matter what a band does?

 

[TheLongshot]

I love when bands of old start to write new material with the idea of trying to sound "modern" and it never works. And their idea of modern is usually two trends behind the times anyway. I see this all the time, that is why I think bands should stick with what they do well. Hard rock and the hair band elk is the best example of bands who do this "modern " thing and it is always terrible and funny.

Except for Rush, who always manage to make it sound good, if it is the keyboard-heavy 80s stuff or the more stripped down and raw 90s stuff. But, the point there is at the heart of it all, it is still Rush.

I think the point is that while you change with the times, you shouldn't lose your identity as a band. Some bands have changed their name over this issue sometimes, because the name has turned into a brand and there is a certain expectation.

 

[MartinW]

I think the point is that while you change with the times, you shouldn't lose your identity as a band. Some bands have changed their name over this issue sometimes, because the name has turned into a brand and there is a certain expectation.

I think most moderately well-functioning people can deal with having their expectations shattered in this case. If not, they need to learn to. The artists are the ones actually DOING something - they are the ones actually writing and playing the actual music. The only thing the fans do is decide whether or not to pay for it, which isn't a particularly impressive task and should not come with rights and entitlements (other than the right to, when you buy a CD by a certain band, get a CD with music by that band on it).

 

[mad_taffer]

I don't have a problem with a band changing their sound...as long as it's good and they can do it competently.
EdGuy's last CD was so undistinguishable from every other hard rock band, that I could barely believe it was them.
To me they lost what made them stand out in the first place. That is not moving forward.

However, I have no problem at all with Maiden going more progressive because I think they do it well.
They have stuck with their sound, but just made the songs more complex and longer...which I think fits them well.
I mean it's not like they didn't toy with it in the past.

The point is, Maiden expanded on thier sound, whereas EdGuy abandoned theirs for generic hard rock riffing, and yeah at times some of the stuff on the Avantasia reminds me of Bon Jovi. Is Tobias trying to become the new Bon Jovi? Maybe he just wants more fame.

The new Sonata sounds like a band with an identity crisis to me. They don't what they are anymore, and yes I did like Flag in the Ground...and I wonder why they chose that song as the lead off single? They know...


But what is the point of speedy Euro metal bands transforming into generic hard rock bands...isn't that going backwards?

 

[MartinW]

The new Sonata sounds like a band with an identity crisis to me. They don't what they are anymore

So, essentially, they have an artistic ambition to evolve? I hardly see this as a bad thing. This hopefully means that in the future, they will expand upon and eventually master their new style. I certainly hope Tony does not start to share the regressive thoughts that have been expressed by some people in this thread.

 

[mad_taffer]

I will say that I can handle Sonata's change more than I can EdGuy's. At least listening to Sonata is...well...interesting? I can't say that I love it, but I don't exactly hate it either. I really don't know what to make of it actually, it just confuses me.

And they were kind of becoming the AC/DC of speedy Euro metal...all their stuff sounded the same.

 

[Magius]

What bands should do, is whatever pleases them as musicians and as artists.

Bands owe fans nothing, when it comes to new releases. The creation and subsequent purchase of a CD is not a legally binding contract that obligates the artist to write music stylistically similar to initially purchased disc.

Agreed. However, the reverse is also true. Listeners owe bands nothing. Previous purchases of prior albums in no way obligates fans to buy dissimilar releases.

Both sides need to shut up. Fans can move on to other bands if they don't like new material. If bands change their sound they need not be bitching about fans clamoring for the older stuff, àla Metallica and Queensryche.

I so agree! I guess I never understood all the pissing and moaning about Sonata Arctica. I personally thought UniaandThe Days of Grays were both awesome albums. Hell, I even told Tony in person that I really enjoyed these albums. And yes, I still very much spin and enjoy their earlier releases, especially Silence and Reckoning Night. I seriously wonder how much of this is truly people not liking a bands directions or the perhaps the fans themselves refuse to broaden their own horizons.

And yes, I do agree with 'Zod's statement that a band really does not owe a fan anything.

I also think 'Magius' pretty much summed it up in his post. Pretty much a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of scenario.

I can't speak for anyone else. but personally it's all about liking rather than horizons. I judge everything on its own merits, with no preconceptions. As a result I like a lot of material from bands that have undergone even radical changes. For example:

Iron Maiden: I liked the Blaze albums better than anything since Powerslave, and even anything since Virtual XI.

Human Fortress: Eternal Empire sounds nothing like their previous releases. I don't care if they don't sound anything like what others expect Human Fortress to sound like. It kicks ass, as far as I'm concerned.

The Scorpions: Eye to Eye. Totally different. Dig it.

Judas Priest: I like the Ripper albums. Each one has a song I consider to be top 10 favorite Priest songs- Cathedral Spires and Subterfuge.

Accept: Eat the heat. Completely different than any other Accept album. I still rank it higher than some of the albums that came out after Udo rejoined the band. Hellhammer is a monster song, and would be regardless of who released it.

IMO the current and recent offerings from Sonata Arctica, Avantasia, and Edguy all suck. I'll add Nocturnal Rites to that list too. I don't care. I'm not bitching about it. I've simply found other stuff to listen to.

 

[nomisofsiman]

The Scorpions: Eye to Eye. Totally different. Dig it.

Judas Priest: I like the Ripper albums. Each one has a song I consider to be top 10 favorite Priest songs- Cathedral Spires and Subterfuge.

Accept: Eat the heat. Completely different than any other Accept album. I still rank it higher than some of the albums that came out after Udo rejoined the band. Hellhammer is a monster song, and would be regardless of who released it.

IMO the current and recent offerings from Sonata Arctica, Avantasia, and Edguy all suck. I'll add Nocturnal Rites to that list too. I don't care. I'm not bitching about it. I've simply found other stuff to listen to.

uke:uke:uke:uke:uke: to the first two paragraphs, especially Eye to Eye. I love the Scorpions, but holy hell is that shit bad. I like Ripper as a singer, but as I've said time and time again here, the song quality on those discs are shit and proves that they can't make good music without Halford.

Eat the Heat isn't anywhere near as bad as people say it is. It's just incredibly inconsistent.

I'll agree that the recent Edguy albums sucks big ones, but I will have to disagree that the releases by the others have sucked. By no means are they the best material from Sonata and Avantasia, but they are good, especially the Avantasia albums. The problem with Avantasia always is going to be comparing it to the first two albums, which imo are instant classics.

 

[Magius]

uke:uke:uke:uke:uke: to the first two paragraphs, especially Eye to Eye. I love the Scorpions, but holy hell is that shit bad. I like Ripper as a singer, but as I've said time and time again here, the song quality on those discs are shit and proves that they can't make good music without Halford.

Eat the Heat isn't anywhere near as bad as people say it is. It's just incredibly inconsistent.

I'll agree that the recent Edguy albums sucks big ones, but I will have to disagree that the releases by the others have sucked. By no means are they the best material from Sonata and Avantasia, but they are good, especially the Avantasia albums. The problem with Avantasia always is going to be comparing it to the first two albums, which imo are instant classics.

By all means feel free to disagree with any or all of it. I'm definitely not going to take it personally. Your opinion is as relevant as anyone else's, none of which affect what I like.
Personally, with the exception of the first Fight album, I find everything Halford has been involved in since Painkiller to be mediocre at best.

The point was that fans can certainly like the new direction of a band, but in no way are they obligated to conform their likes and dislikes to accommodate that direction.

 

[nomisofsiman]

By all means feel free to disagree with any or all of it. I'm definitely not going to take it personally. Your opinion is as relevant as anyone else's, none of which affect what I like.
Personally, with the exception of the first Fight album, I find everything Halford has been involved in since Painkiller to be mediocre at best.

The point was that fans can certainly like the new direction of a band, but in no way are they obligated to conform their likes and dislikes to accommodate that direction.

Of course! It would be pretty lame if we all agreed. I would have to completely agree with your second paragraph though.

 

[MartinW]

Agreed. However, the reverse is also true. Listeners owe bands nothing. Previous purchases of prior albums in no way obligates fans to buy dissimilar releases.

Both sides need to shut up. Fans can move on to other bands if they don't like new material. If bands change their sound they need not be bitching about fans clamoring for the older stuff, àla Metallica and Queensryche.

Yeah, see, I agree with this too, but in my experience, the whining ratio is much higher among fans than bands (at least openly). Now, I have never listened to Metallica and I don't follow Queensrÿche at all, so I don't know about their attitudes, but the bands I care about all seem to complain much, much less than the fans.

 

[Magius]

Yeah, see, I agree with this too, but in my experience, the whining ratio is much higher among fans than bands (at least openly). Now, I have never listened to Metallica and I don't follow Queensrÿche at all, so I don't know about their attitudes, but the bands I care about all seem to complain much, much less than the fans.

Well, not all fans complain, so it's a matter of ratios. There are far more fans than bands. If 10% of each has complaints, then the vast majority of them will be from fans.

 

[Exploding Ned]

I hear this sometimes from customers, and it does effect sales obviously... I'm thinking oh yeah here's the newest so and so CD from X band who's sold well for me in the past. Then zero sales from the new one. So I see it from a financial standpoint as well as seeing the disappointment from fans. And I do get it. On the flipside though, as a few have suggested here, the bands have a right to go in whatever direction they choose. I would only argue with that if there's an ulterior or other wacked out motive for doing it... like a label leaning on the band to make hits, the band just being in a screwed up frame of mind and not progressing in a natural order, etc.

 

[Fizrider]

Except for Rush, who always manage to make it sound good, if it is the keyboard-heavy 80s stuff or the more stripped down and raw 90s stuff. But, the point there is at the heart of it all, it is still Rush.

Thank you. I had been thinking of this since the first post of the thread.

 

[JenniferLynn]

Dear [name of band]: I love your early stuff, but the [new style of music] that you've been playing is not exactly the same as you've played before. I [assume to be] speaking for every old fan of your music when I ask "When will you start playing [old style of music] again?" If you don't, I'll stop listening. - A real fan.

I dunno... but it makes me want to punch people in the face... That they are so self absorbed to think its ok for them to change, but not their favorite bands is nuckin' futs..

Take in what's offered.. digest it.. aborb the offering.. and accept it or be on your way dammit...

sorry... my filter is WAY off tonight Blame the Stoli O and Carbonleaf (ok so alot of folks won't like Carbonleaf here but damn they're a great band....)