Why is it so difficult to give metal recordings depth?

[Manbient]

I'm a bit of an "audiophile" (though i hate the connotations of the term), and one thing i've noticed about metal recordings is that most of them... well... they just can't sound deep, wide, tall, etc. I think it is the nature of the guitars more than anything (high distortion, the need to be wayy up front to give them punch), but metal recordings with a huge soundstage seem to be extremely rare. If some of you are fans of jazz, you probably know what i mean. Jazz is very often amazing for soudstaging (depending on who's producing/mixing), and that kind of sound i just never hear in metal. I don't want to turn this into a "brag about myself" thread, but i have spent a lot of money on my stereo (mine's worth about ~$40k), and one of the more disappointing things i discovered as i got deeper into gear, is that the benefits are nearly entirely lost on metal. Most of my other music sounds wayyy better, mostly improvements in just how realistic things sound and how well defined they are in an acoustic space. Metal... not so much.

In addition to the thread question, i was wondering if any of you can recommend me metal recordings which DO have big soundstaging and depth to them. I'm at a loss to think of some as an example what i mean (since i think it's so rare), but i hope you know what i mean anyway.

 

[006]

It's because there is a lot of stuff going on, sonically. Heavily distorted guitars, drums at full blast, bass and screaming vocals... It's pretty apparent to me why they would lack the "soundstage" of something like jazz. Dynamics, or rather the lack of, come to mind here.
~006

 

[izzyrock]

cause there is a lot of noise going on. really

 

[Manbient]

It's because there is a lot of stuff going on, sonically.

~006

yeah, that's probably it. Distorted guitars are like a block of noise at all frequencies, kinda hard to keep that distinct from everything else. I guess it's the higher frequencies that tend to get the most jumbled (and i suspect a lot of the "air" and depth i hear is coming from those ranges).

 

[gorath23]

I would imagine that this is because everything is compressed to shit, from tracking, to mixing, to mastering. No dynamics. Most mdern metal sounds flat as a pancake and about as subtle as a fist. Maybe try out some Live recordings instead. Opeth's 'Roundhouse Tapes' initially springs to mind. I love the vibe on 'Live Consternation' (Katatonia) too.

 

[006]

I edited my post to add a little more.

~006

 

[Ben Johnson]

Metal albums with real orchestra come to mind as being deeper than your standard guitars/bass/drums album...but not Dimmu Borgir's PEM.

 

[Manbient]

alright, thanks guys. Maybe a more interesting direction to take this thread is how CAN we get expanded soundstaging from metal recordings? Would it be worth the sacrifices you'd have to make elsewhere (ie compression)?

 

[SocialNumb]

Katatonia

 

[Notuern]

Im guessing that you are talking about modern metal?

A few records with tons of depth and definition in the "glam"style(Heavy Metal):

Ratt - Invasion Of Your Privacy
Steelheart - Steelheart
Winger - In The Heart Of The Young(Check out Rainbow In The Rose.)
Dokken - Under Lock And Key(Check out Will The Sun Rise.)

 

[Metaltastic]

Katatonia

Hell yeah! And really anything Jens Bogren produces (the two most recent Opeth albums especially HOT DAYUM)

 

[006]

Man, I don't think there is a way to do that...the elements are how they are. I mean...maybe with 5.1/7.1 surround channel mixing? Even then, the sonic qualities that are "necessary" to meet today's standard in modern metal are not very dynamic, which I think is a key ingredient for what you are talking about. Keep in mind that most bands doing metal don't want their record to have a good dynamic range and everything, they want it tight, in your face and aggressive.

~006

 

[Notuern]

alright, thanks guys. Maybe a more interesting direction to take this thread is how CAN we get expanded soundstaging from metal recordings? Would it be worth the sacrifices you'd have to make elsewhere (ie compression)?

When I mix stuff for our band(80's Heavy Metal ala. Dokken), I try to use as little compression as possible.

Kick: EQ, Gate(If there is alot of leaking), Compressor(If its too uneven.).
Snare: Expand, Gate, Eq(If needed.), Reverb
Toms: Eq(Usualy boost 1khz a little.), Reverb(If needed.)
Cymbals: Eq or Multiband compressor(To get rid of "sss" but keeping the shine.)

Bass: Eq(To let the snare, kick and toms through.), Multiband compressor(If needed.)
Guitars: Eq(Low&Hi-pass, and to let the Snare, Kick and Bass through.)

Vocals: Random.

And I try to get the bassguitar to have more room in 120-220hz area, while the kick gets room in 50-120hz and between 3-5khz(Depending on what kind of "click" that fits the song.).
I always keep 2 tracks for rythm guitar(Panned 80-80), 2 tracks for "leadrythm"(30-30 or 50-50), and have solos slapped on right in the middle with mono-effects(To not slap it backwards in the mix.).

That way I get a phat low end, without f-ing with the highs, and good depth.
The problem is that I can work on a mix for months before it starts to sound like I want, even though I get really close the first time! >,<

 

[ahjteam]

In addition to the thread question, i was wondering if any of you can recommend me metal recordings which DO have big soundstaging and depth to them. I'm at a loss to think of some as an example what i mean (since i think it's so rare), but i hope you know what i mean anyway.

I really have to dissapoint you a lot, because in metal the lack of dynamics is "the thing", always the loudest. But its a good thing there are some exceptions. You also have to define metal first... I consider even deep purple, fnm, deftones and tool as metal, many on this forum don't. But if we count in all stuff made in the 1980s, the list will be helluva long, but I will try to suggest more on the more modern stuff for ya, that (in my opinion) have good songs on them to the boot:

Metallica - Black Album (1991: thrash, hard rock)
Devin Townsend - Ziltoid (2007: epic, death, modern)
Opeth - Blackwater Park (2001: progressive, death)
Soulfly - Conqueror (2008: groove metal)
Strapping Young Lad - Alien (2005: industrial, death)
Diablo - Eternium (2003: melodic death)
Eilera - Fusion (2007: "björkmetal")
Itä-Saksa - Man The Machines (2000, industrial)
Major Label - ...And The Machines Will Never Wake Us (2007: alternative)
Tool - Lateralus (2001: alternative, progressive)
Waltari - Big Bang! (1995: crossover)
Waltari - Yeah!Yeah!Die!Die! (1998: symphonic, death)
Faith No More - King For A Day, Fool For A Lifetime (1995: crossover)
Nightwish - Wishmaster (1999: symphonic, melodic)
Meshuggah - Chaosphere (1998: math, death) on some songs
Deftones - White Pony (1999: alternative)
Insert Remedy - A State of Constant Change (2007: death, alternative)
Perfect Chaos - Breed Hate : Steer Fate (2004: modern thrash)
Sepultura - Roots (1996: groovemetal)
HIM - Greatest Lovesongs Vol 666 (1996: lovemetal)
Hurt - Vol II (2007: alternative, hard rock)
Iron Maiden - Best of the Beast (1996: heavy metal) this version because this remaster actually has quite nice dynamics
The Cyan Velvet Project - The Towers And The Blizzard (2007: industrial, goth)
Pantera - Vulgar Display of Power (1992: groove metal)
Rammstein - Mutter (2001: industrial)
SikTh - The Trees Are Dead & Dried Out Wait For Something Wild (2003: math, progressive, alternative) not so sure about this on tho

The problem is that I can work on a mix for months before it starts to sound like I want, even though I get really close the first time! >,<

I don't remember who said this, but its quite true: "the last 5% of work takes 95% of the time, and in 99% of the cases its really useless"

 

[Erkan]

It amazes me that nobody has mentioned Gojira's "From Mars to Sirius" album. That one has way more depth/space than any of the above mentioned...

 

[abyssofdreams]

Katatonia

This is the last thing I would recommend. TGCD is VERY upfront and dry. The depth comes more from the total vibe of the songwriting and the more distant leads. It's a great production but definately nothing the OP is looking for.
Now that last Daylight Dies record on the other hand... is more what I would call wide and deep, in metal.

 

[Morgan C]

Guitars to me seem to serve as a musical noise-floor, thats really loud. Whenever distorted guitars come in, anything below their volume is practically inaudible, so while you may have an awesome room or ambience for the drums or vocals you really can't hear them when distorted guitars come in. Perhaps cutting key frequencies to allow some of the ambience back in might work but then you'd end up with a whacky guitar tone.

 

[Ermz]

It's because in most metal recordings the midrange is so dominated by vocals and guitars (and sometimes bass too). Jazz recordings are much more sparse from an instrumentation, as well as timbre perspective. I'm not saying there isn't a lot going on - it's just that what is going on doesn't take up as much 'real estate' as quad tracked rectos, double tracked leads and a drunken hobo screaming into an SM7.

My personal mixing style relies a lot on using ambience and crafting space around elements to create perceived depth. I tried to apply this as much as possible to my latest release, which some here may have heard, but I'll link it for you anyway Mikey: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/285689/Music/IMW-Eternal_Nightfall.mp3

It's about as far as I could get with giving space to a metal recording without it sounding overly 80s.

 

[iekobrid]

If by soundstaging you mean the electric guitar is the only thing that seems to have been direct miked and everything else sounds like it's coming from the other side of a warehouse, I 'recommend' the new Dir en grey album...

video

 

[Notuern]

If by soundstaging you mean the electric guitar is the only thing that seems to have been direct miked and everything else sounds like it's coming from the other side of a warehouse, I 'recommend' the new Dir en grey album...

video

I feel that that the compression and drums are the biggest problems.
The only drums that aren't samplereplaced are compressed, gated, hard-eq'ed and doesn't have any reverb at all, which makes the drums undynamic and it also kinda makes them sound like miked buckets.

And multitracking the guitars is great, in moderate use, but there's lots of records that have 8 or more tracks on the guitars, which just takes to much space in the mix.

To simplify it all: Modern mixes are dry as hell, everything sounds kinda plastic, because there is no room in the drums, no reverb, and not too many sustained notes on either guitar or bass.