Kaosaur
Member
And I think I've heard him say Savatage is over at pretty much every JOP show I've been to, which is like 5 now.
Will this be the end of it?
- Thread starter AngraRULES
- Start date
I agree it is not the same (TSO and Savatage after 93), but I do believe it would be quite the same had they continued. With Savatage, Oliva has to follow a certain formula, defined by a certain producer, while with JOP he can do what he wants to.
Frankly, Lucas, and I read the same from your post, those guys gave so much for so many years while being the most criminally underrated band of our time, that if all they want to do now is either make money (TSO) or do what pleases themselves (Jon Oliva), I fully respect that
edgeofthorns
24 Hours Ago...
Listen, there isn't anything wrong with people being fans and wanting certain musicians to reunite. It's all part of music. With that said, if the musicians don't like it, well, maybe they're in the wrong line of work. The hardcore Savatage fans are the ones that actually buy all the albums (not pirating), several times over, attend all of the JOP, CIIC shows, and basically help pay the bills. Hell, Jon Oliva and Zak Stevens could probably spit in a jar and some of us would buy it. If they get a little pressure from the fans about a Savatage reunion, then take it as compliment and go on. I have yet to see anyone disrespecting the current JOP music or lineup.
You're basically coming across as a kiss ass prick on this thread. Is that enough mind blowing truth for you?
~Brian~
I agree it is not the same (TSO and Savatage after 93), but I do believe it would be quite the same had they continued. With Savatage, Oliva has to follow a certain formula, defined by a certain producer, while with JOP he can do what he wants to.
Frankly, Lucas, and I read the same from your post, those guys gave so much for so many years while being the most criminally underrated band of our time, that if all they want to do now is either make money (TSO) or do what pleases themselves (Jon Oliva), I fully respect that
I respect that too!
Like I said, I am cool with them moving on with their lives. Jon doesn't owe us anything, I am not requesting a Sava reunion... But I do not agree with his reasoning at all... There is reason for people to miss Savatage, everything (musically) is not the same.
That doesn't mean they need to keep us happy just because we miss Savatage... They can most certainly work on whatever project they feel like working and I respect and support that... But don't give us the "hey, shut up! You have all of Savatage's sound covered in different bands" speech... That's not true.
Kaosaur
Member
Actually I'm trying my level best not to talk about how much I don't care for Savatage. Maybe with the username 'edgeofthorns' it might be a bit unreasonable to expect you to understand just how completely sick some (a rare few, i know) of us here of Savatage this and Savatage that.
I actually quite liked the JOP & CIIC shows I've been to. Sadly, the amount of Savatage-stroking that goes on is a bit of a turn off to me enjoying them more but it is completely understandable. I think the JOP material is EXCELLENT.
What I find remarkable is how many people follow these bands simply because they loved Savatage and for no other reason. Then maybe it is justifiable for you to think that it should just be a Savatage reunion already. I guess it's understandable when your earlier work is something so significant, but it's got to be intensely frustrating for your future creative work to be basically irrelevant because of what you did before...and have no control over that because your fans just won't let go.
I for one think that change and growth is good though...and when something was good, you just have to move on for it to stay good. I could give a fucking rats ass about anyone who can't let go of the past...especially 10 years later...and maybe, just maybe, that's a bit of what Oliva is feeling.
But I guess at the end of the day he's just a performing musician...so dance, monkey, dance.
Metalmilitia2000
UM's Resident Asshole
AMBR
Metal Grandma
This.
And this:
And also this:
Not as rare as you think. Some of us just stay out of the fray - usually.
ICEDEARTHFAN
IN MEMORY.....
Let's say he does a reunion.It would be a hit with all their fans and I don't know,maybe even bring in some new fans.But it won't stop with this one,the fans will always scream for a reunion until Jon dies or he can't sing anymore.I LOVE Savatage and have been a fan since the 80's,I also would go to see a reunion show.But I see Jon's point completely.
I remember when Tommy Lee went out on his own.He tried not only to be a seperate entity without Crue but actually swapped to a different genre of music.The only questions he received by the fans AND from EVERY radio show he did was about Crue and his past with them.He made the statement after one of the last interviews while trying to promote his own album that he guessed no matter how hard he tried he would never make it without Crue because the fans fell in love with "those 4 guys" and no amount of change would be tolerated.I know he's back with them now,but I felt so sorry for him when that was going on.The same can be said here for Jon now.Of course he appreciates the Savatage fans and of course he is proud of his past,but when the same question bombards you EVERYWHERE you go,it gets frustrating.He may wake up one morning and decide the fans are right and maybe we get our reunion,or maybe never.I will follow Jon wherever he goes as long as he keeps playing awesome music.
I remember when Tommy Lee went out on his own.He tried not only to be a seperate entity without Crue but actually swapped to a different genre of music.The only questions he received by the fans AND from EVERY radio show he did was about Crue and his past with them.He made the statement after one of the last interviews while trying to promote his own album that he guessed no matter how hard he tried he would never make it without Crue because the fans fell in love with "those 4 guys" and no amount of change would be tolerated.I know he's back with them now,but I felt so sorry for him when that was going on.The same can be said here for Jon now.Of course he appreciates the Savatage fans and of course he is proud of his past,but when the same question bombards you EVERYWHERE you go,it gets frustrating.He may wake up one morning and decide the fans are right and maybe we get our reunion,or maybe never.I will follow Jon wherever he goes as long as he keeps playing awesome music.
edgeofthorns
24 Hours Ago...
It sounds to me like it goes a little deeper than you simply being sick of a band. Why get so bent out of shape about it?
I'm not sure what you mean by "Savatage-stroking", but again, it sounds a bit like a personal problem. I'm not sure how anyone can like the JOP and CIIC material as much as you claim to, but hate Savatage so bad. With that said, I don't believe anyone cares. I won't loose any sleep over it, I promise.
It's probably because they like all the music, as I do.
Have you not noticed how much of Criss' work Jon has included in the recent JOP material? If I recall correctly, Jon wrote a song called, Through The Eyes of The King. Was that due to him wanting us dumbass Savatage fans to forget about the band? Do you know where Tage Mahal came from, which is the album title of the first JOP release? Criss wanted to call a Savatage album by that same name, Tage Mahal. Also, I'll mention the song from Tage Mahal called, Gimme Some Hell. Listen to the lyrics of that song for crying out loud! Does that sound like someone who wants to sweep Savatage under the carpet? It doesn't to me.
Your statement about the fans not letting it go is total bullshit.
No one is disrespecting Jon in this manner, so this is simply an attempt to twist my words into something they're not.
~Brian~
Metalmilitia2000
UM's Resident Asshole
There is PLENTY of Savatage stroking on this board, and for the most part, you seem to be king of the hill for that. As for Jon and using ideas from his brother and such, I don't see those as ideas from Savatage, I see those as ideas from his fallen brother who he loved very much, for crying out loud. He has made it painfully obvious in every interview that he has done in the past few years that Savatage is dead and JOP is the closest that you will get to seeing it. You people need to get over it.
Kaosaur
Member
No, it doesn't sound like someone who wants to sweep Savatage under the carpet...it sounds like someone wanting to carry on for his dead brother, who he really misses quite a lot.
Sounds like even more of a good reason to leave Savatage as a band behind.
See Frode's post.
edgeofthorns
24 Hours Ago...
...maybe I'm king of the Savatage stroking, but you're a great candidate for being "King Stroke" for Jon Schaffer and Jeff Waters. It goes both ways Mr. Metalmilita. That's true indeed. With that said, Criss was a huge part of Savatage though.
~Brian~
Metalmilitia2000
UM's Resident Asshole
That's true indeed. With that said, Criss was a huge part of Savatage though.
~Brian~
Where have I talked about Waters on here in a while? Find me somewhere where I have talked about Schaffer in a while other than the Sons of Liberty thread where I simply put in my opinion of the project and of the information surrounding what he wrote about. I however, do not have Jon or Jeff in my sig and Avatar (see, a savatage joke), nor do I link to their myspace or home page. I just really hope you don't listen to Lil Jon, because with all of your stroking, I don't know if we could handle the skeet skeet, goddamn.
Brent
If everyone does not object... perhaps I could offer
a bit of inside, honest dialogue of this ongoing situation.
As one of a handful of people that has had the priviledge and
honor of recording and performing with such a talent for the
past 6 years, I hope that my opinion will not be looked on as over-appreciation for what he has given all of us...
Oliva/JOP/Savatage/TSO fans.
In a nutshell, Jon Oliva wants to do what is best for Jon
and most of all...what is enjoyable to him now.
He has a family to support, but he wants to enjoy the
latter part of his career on his terms. He's not out there
to be rock-star guy (which he never is).
JO is the most honest, caring and musically brilliant person
you could ever meet. He doesn't waste his "genius-time"
worrying about anything else other than where the next
great song might come from. He's a songwriter, focused 110%
24/7 on writing music that inspires him and what makes him
happy....that's it!
JOP is no revenue stream for Jon..trust me! But it is what
makes him happy! He freely admits that he is still traveling
his musical journey. JO is like the energizer bunny, and
we all want a genius to do what he does best...so extend him
a bit of happiness for all he has given us.
Media sorts focus on the questionable/negative aspects of
anything because it gets you to go to their website or buy
their magazine. Oliva has done his very, very best to be HONEST
about everything. He has released several formal statements
with regards to this subject...and frankly he just wants some
peace and for people to focus on the present and the real future.
Oliva/JOP pays homage to Savatage/Criss Oliva on every Cd and
every live show. He TRULY respects the fans, his past and knows that without that/you he would not be able to do what he does today.
He has no desire to slow down...and we are already in pre-production
with new material. And he is also working on other TSO projects as well.
Oliva does not focus one minute on the past or resurrecting it
And frankly if he did..we would all support his decision to do so.
He just wants the opportunity to share as many of his musical
idea's to the world as possible as long as he as able...THAT'S IT!
JO has never, ever been on the internet...and I for one am thankful
that he has not. No telling how the years of chatter might stifle his
sheer artistry.
Cheers
a bit of inside, honest dialogue of this ongoing situation.
As one of a handful of people that has had the priviledge and
honor of recording and performing with such a talent for the
past 6 years, I hope that my opinion will not be looked on as over-appreciation for what he has given all of us...
Oliva/JOP/Savatage/TSO fans.
In a nutshell, Jon Oliva wants to do what is best for Jon
and most of all...what is enjoyable to him now.
He has a family to support, but he wants to enjoy the
latter part of his career on his terms. He's not out there
to be rock-star guy (which he never is).
JO is the most honest, caring and musically brilliant person
you could ever meet. He doesn't waste his "genius-time"
worrying about anything else other than where the next
great song might come from. He's a songwriter, focused 110%
24/7 on writing music that inspires him and what makes him
happy....that's it!
JOP is no revenue stream for Jon..trust me! But it is what
makes him happy! He freely admits that he is still traveling
his musical journey. JO is like the energizer bunny, and
we all want a genius to do what he does best...so extend him
a bit of happiness for all he has given us.
Media sorts focus on the questionable/negative aspects of
anything because it gets you to go to their website or buy
their magazine. Oliva has done his very, very best to be HONEST
about everything. He has released several formal statements
with regards to this subject...and frankly he just wants some
peace and for people to focus on the present and the real future.
Oliva/JOP pays homage to Savatage/Criss Oliva on every Cd and
every live show. He TRULY respects the fans, his past and knows that without that/you he would not be able to do what he does today.
He has no desire to slow down...and we are already in pre-production
with new material. And he is also working on other TSO projects as well.
Oliva does not focus one minute on the past or resurrecting it
And frankly if he did..we would all support his decision to do so.
He just wants the opportunity to share as many of his musical
idea's to the world as possible as long as he as able...THAT'S IT!
JO has never, ever been on the internet...and I for one am thankful
that he has not. No telling how the years of chatter might stifle his
sheer artistry.
Cheers
Metalmilitia2000
UM's Resident Asshole
I saw you reading this earlier and was wondering if you would respond. Brilliantly said. Thanks.
J-Dubya 777
It NEVER ends
DTJeff
I Am My Nation
Yep, was at this show, god that was a badass experience.
I am really starting to get annoyed with Jon over this matter. I've talked to a lot of the other Sava-guys over the past couple of years, and it just eats at my heart to see how badly these guys want to do this, but unfortunately Jon just can't see eye to eye with them and won't take time to make it happen for the sake of closure for the fans and musicians themselves.
This isn't about TSO, don't let that fool you. They could easily orchestrate something in the given 9 months TSO has off every year - hell, some of the guys would probably even leave TSO in order to make time for Savatage, that's how badly most of the guys care, Jon seemingly just doesn't.
I just can't stand his notion that it's all about him and that "well I play Savatage songs with JOP - what do you want?". If the world agreed with him, JOP would be playing to crowds 5x what they are, and headlining festivals instead of playing where/when they are/ I'm not saying JOP aren't good, they are. The guys are great players and they play the Savatage material very well (in the case of Matt, I'd say he plays Criss's solos better than Caffery does). Also all the JOP albums thus far have been good. But they don't have that same charm to them that Savatage records do. At least not to me and many others I've talked to.
Furthermore, no one (at least no one I know) is asking Jon to give up JOP and return to Savatage full-time. I don't care if they never record again, I couldn't care less. But what I do care about is that 8 years ago they drifted into obscurity and just fell apart indefinitely, and now Jon refuses to reunite for the sake of giving the fans a proper farewell. Not just for the old, faithful fans, but for the young ones like myself (and all my friends) who unfortunately never got to see Savatage live. That's all most people are asking for, some closure. The opportunity to see Savatage and live out that music one last time, and then move on, knowing it's over.
I also want to make note of the fact that the reason why I (and many other people I know) are so pressing on this issue is because honestly, Jon's health just seems to keep getting worse, and sadly if things don't turn around, time can't exactly be on his side. Jon is honestly my greatest musical hero (and a helluva nice guy from the little I've spoken to him), and I wish he'd take better care of himself.
Metalmilitia2000
UM's Resident Asshole
I don't understand how it is so hard to understand that he doesn't want to do it anymore? Who cares if the other guys want to do it, Savatage was always Jon and Criss's band, and with Criss gone, it's Jon's band. Honestly, if I had a brother who I loved very much and was in a band with, die, I would probably not want to carry on under that name either. Granted, he did stick around after Criss died, but it was never the same, and he took a backseat to everything. You all need to respect what Jon wants to do and not what the rest of the guys (and Paul) wants to do. That's just my .02
DTJeff, I sort of understand your point when you say you are too young to have ever seen the band. I can understand that it is important to you what the backdrop says. But I can't help thinking that this sounds like a girlfriend you can't let go, or "I will let her go if I can have only one more night with her"...
Jon chose to carry on under a different name due to respect for the ones who gave half of their artistic career for him (Wacholz, Caffery, Middleton, Plate and Stevens). He has every right to call JOP Savatage - and I also believe that had he called JOP Savatage when they came out, most people would have been just fine with it by now, four albums and lots of Criss Oliva co-written tunes later.
I do NOT believe that any of the other Savatage members would give up TSO to do Savatage. TSO is a paycheck they can live from the rest of the year, when they do other music that inspires them (just like JO does) - Savatage is not about that kind of money. And Caffery, Middleton and Plate deserve every penny they can get from TSO for sticking with Oliva over the years. With their talents, they could easily have gone elsewhere for money, but they never lost faith in Jon.
Another aspect here, is the fact that when you are building a solo career (or a new band for that matter), then you go back to your "main" band - you have to start at scratch once the flirt with the old is over, and all the work you put into building the new band goes to waste. Ask Udo Dirkschneider, he knows. He did Accept twice after he established U.D.O., and coming off the Accept thing, he saw how the interest for U.D.O. had gone back to minimum.
True, he could have played for at least five times the crowds as Savatage, but the fact that he doesn't just shows what kind of person he is.
Frode
Jon chose to carry on under a different name due to respect for the ones who gave half of their artistic career for him (Wacholz, Caffery, Middleton, Plate and Stevens). He has every right to call JOP Savatage - and I also believe that had he called JOP Savatage when they came out, most people would have been just fine with it by now, four albums and lots of Criss Oliva co-written tunes later.
I do NOT believe that any of the other Savatage members would give up TSO to do Savatage. TSO is a paycheck they can live from the rest of the year, when they do other music that inspires them (just like JO does) - Savatage is not about that kind of money. And Caffery, Middleton and Plate deserve every penny they can get from TSO for sticking with Oliva over the years. With their talents, they could easily have gone elsewhere for money, but they never lost faith in Jon.
Another aspect here, is the fact that when you are building a solo career (or a new band for that matter), then you go back to your "main" band - you have to start at scratch once the flirt with the old is over, and all the work you put into building the new band goes to waste. Ask Udo Dirkschneider, he knows. He did Accept twice after he established U.D.O., and coming off the Accept thing, he saw how the interest for U.D.O. had gone back to minimum.
True, he could have played for at least five times the crowds as Savatage, but the fact that he doesn't just shows what kind of person he is.
Frode
nomisofsiman
Member
Yeah, Jon kept going after Criss, but it's gotta be a hard thing to do to this day without him. The thing is, much like any other profession, if his heart isn't into doing Savatage, then let it be. Also, while they'd get more fans, we aren't talking about HUGE sold out shows. Savatage was always (at least in the states) an underground phenomenon. Jon has complained time and time again how pissed he is that Savatage never made it, yet when the TSO thing started was even more pissed how that far surpassed what Savatage ever did. I think some people on this forum neglect to realize that just because they want to see Savatage one more time, doesn't mean enough people here in the US do.
