Women and Men

[BloodSword]

In my perusing of the electric highway, I stumbled upon a web-site called The American Nihilist Underground Society. And there was an article by Vijay Prozak(real name?) where he was writing about Men and Women. I will paraphrase; A woman is a nurturing antidote to the mania of man for accomplishment of abstract ideas. She does not deal in concepts of what might be, but in a practical bettering of what is, where a man looks to the horizon for his dreams, woman is busy examining what is in her hands and configuring it to be as pleasant as possible. He goes on to say; A man seeing cruelty formulates a theory of justice and then struggles to implement it, where a woman simply avoids the source of cruelty. A man goes from hero to religious lunatic in 3 seconds if not properly balanced by a woman. I have to agree with his statement, in that, some of this is applicable to me. Just curious, what the intelligient beings on this forum think. All opinions and theories are appreciated. Also, I feel that as men and women the quest for balance is truly necessary for our survival. Peace.

 

[Norsemaiden]

In my perusing of the electric highway, I stumbled upon a web-site called The American Nihilist Underground Society. And there was an article by Vijay Prozak(real name?) where he was writing about Men and Women. I will paraphrase; A woman is a nurturing antidote to the mania of man for accomplishment of abstract ideas. She does not deal in concepts of what might be, but in a practical bettering of what is, where a man looks to the horizon for his dreams, woman is busy examining what is in her hands and configuring it to be as pleasant as possible. He goes on to say; A man seeing cruelty formulates a theory of justice and then struggles to implement it, where a woman simply avoids the source of cruelty. A man goes from hero to religious lunatic in 3 seconds if not properly balanced by a woman. I have to agree with his statement, in that, some of this is applicable to me. Just curious, what the intelligient beings on this forum think. All opinions and theories are appreciated. Also, I feel that as men and women the quest for balance is truly necessary for our survival. Peace.

I haven't paid enough attention to notice this post until now, or else I would have replied sooner. It is a worthy subject for discussion. "Prozak"s view has a lot of truth in it - of course it's a generalisation. I concur with most of what is posted on the ANUS site you mention - while I don't think the site should call itself that (but understand the nihilist reasoning).

Women seem more practical minded than men. It is one of the reasons why there are few women philosophers while there are many women psychologists for example. The philosophers are more given to dreaming than to dealing practically with the here and now.

Books like "Men are from Mars, and Women are from Venus" (somewhat tellingly misremembered by a character from a Scottish comedy as "Women are from ma's and men are from Penis!) and another book "Why Men Lie and Women Cry" explain some of the differences in the psychology of the sexes which have to be understood by a couple if they are to live in harmony. It is full of generalisations of course - such as explaining why men like sport more than women. One observaton that particularly struck me was that apparantly when women complain about having had a bad day, they don't want to be given advice but sympathy, but that a man moaning about his experience is looking more for advice than sympathy. Is this correct do you think? I have my doubts as I wouldn't be annoyed by advice in such a situation.

 

[BloodSword]

I feel this could be hit or miss, but women(strictly from my experience) want some sympathy, or more to the point understanding of a tough situation. Men(and I am a Viking man) want understanding and to be advised. I believe it has something to do with how we are raised. Little girls, when they have a bad day, and go to daddy want daddy to be kind and sweet to their little girls. I saw this, because I have 3 younger sisters. They all recieved that treatment and are all well adjusted, mature adult women. Me, on the other hand ( I was a Viking boy) went to my dad for understanding when I was playing football got smacked in the head and told to get my ass in gear and work harder. That was my advice. And I believe to this day I still want advised. Hopefully, not getting punched in the head or whacked in the butt, but by given advice in a civil manner. IMO, boys and girls are raised differently and especially in the formative yrs these experiences stay with us.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Ironbeard, you could well be right that this aspect of personality between men and women owes more to upbringing than to biological difference.

That men and women get along together is vital for society. Unfortunately relations between the sexes in the West have taken a turn for the worse. I blame this on such things as: largescale immigration from other cultures who treat their womenfolk in contrasting ways (eg. women called "bitches" treated with disrespect and no courtship whatsoever - or expected to cover their bodies and faces). This uneuropean kind of behaviour is not being challenged and objected to, rather the european behaviour is changing to accomodate/immitate the new cultural standards. (Easier to downgrade everyone than upgrade everyone).

Also there's the hyping of pornography, which is relevant as regards the media making people insecure about themselves sexually and less inclined to view eachother in a natural and considerate way within relationships. Feminism has been responsible for confusing gender roles and encouraging women to be highly cynical about men. Increasingly this cynicism is actually justified - like a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you are expected to behave a certain way and blamed for it even before you've done it - then you might think "what the hell" and just behave in that way. Out of spite even. So then men end up (often quite reasonably) hating feminists. This has led to the death of chivalrous behaviour towards women and to the so called "war of the sexes".

Then to add to this, small families and women prioritising careers over childcare has led to a situation of competition between men and women. That is a nasty life for a woman to plunge herself into and only causes more resentment on both sides. Men feel as if their role as breadwinner no longer exists and they feel purposeless and emasculated. Women are, after all, the only ones who can give birth - a role men cannot usurp. The "ladette", a hard drinking, promiscuous woman who goes out with her friends and treats men as the worst of men treat women is the monstrous outcome that has been fashionable for a long time now.

Consequences include: difficulty with forming lasting bonds with a chosen member of the opposite sex; high divorse rates; distrust of women and men towards eachother, violence, sexual aggression, unhappiness, and many other social ills that result indirectly from this eg. affect on crime, reckless behaviour, disease rates, unsociable behaviour problems, mental illness, large number of single parents, the need for more housing, etc.

But who is to blame? That is a complicated question to answer. Those who either allowed our culture to change in this direction, or who deliberately orchestrated it that way - is what I think. Don't expect any solution any time soon.

 

[Demilich]

What would happen if we abandoned the superfluous categories of 'man' and 'woman' and simply existed as a group of entities striving towards some kind of goal or set of goals?

 

[Norsemaiden]

What would happen if we abandoned the superfluous categories of 'man' and 'woman' and simply existed as a group of entities striving towards some kind of goal or set of goals?

"Superfluous" ? You are joking aren't you? But I suppose such a view would be consistent with the "there is no such thing as race" nonsense.

 

[Demilich]

Only suggesting a way to live in which our constructions of difference within our own species do not carry the weight they do today. I am merely suggesting that men and women are only as different as we make them.

 

[speed]

Only suggesting a way to live in which our constructions of difference within our own species do not carry the weight they do today. I am merely suggesting that men and women are only as different as we make them.

Wow you sound like a feminist. I think you're lying to yourself if you dont see major--and rightfully so--differences between men and women. These differences are psychological, physical, emotional, and philosophical, and cultural.

Furthermore, I dont see the problem of men and women being different. Women are currently paying for their feminist blunder of attempting to be just like men. Their work gets in the way of either having kids; or if they have kids, they have no time for them or their husband, and divorce and maladjusted children are the net result--as well as stressed and unfulfilled women.

That being said, did anyone read the articles about Stephen Hawking earlier in the week? He was going onabout our need to colonize other planets before we destroy our own, and added he understands the cosmos better than he does women--who are a impenetrable mystery to him. I thought it was funny.

 

[Justin S.]

Those who insist on profound difference are as incorrect as those that deny any at all.

On the average, there is much more physiological similarity than difference- we are the same species after all, and dont posses the dimorphism of many other creatures. Your average man does not posses an imposing structure and muscle mass, nor is the average women of large bust and dramatic hip curvature- we should not extrapolate rare characteristics to the entire population. Sexual characteristics are exaggerated culturally (make up, clothing, hair, body movement, speach, lifestyle) precisely for this reason- visual difference on average is not that great.

The emotional/psychological aspect is up for grabs- generally we profoundly underestimate acculturation, and from my own experience I would say this force accounts for the great majority of difference.

To be honest, the impulse of gendering displays an insecurity, it shows our distaste for the murky ground we are on and how we wish and strive for our ideal of distinct gender types that will relieve us of the burden of conflict on such a primal level.

edit: The gulf between reality and the ideal is displayed so clearly by our society- plastic surgery, eating disorders, and the cosmetic industry all revolve around the desire to bring reality "in line" with the cutural ideal of radically distinguished genders.

 

[Norsemaiden]

A famous feminist once said "women need men like a fish needs a bicycle". Women give birth and nurture (apart from a few odd ones) and men are entirely responsible for wars and are overwhelmingly responsible for criminality. What do you guys say about the idea that men are a problem in the world and that it would be a solution if women were 99% of the population and just had a few male studs around to procreate with (but who were allowed no other role)? This is achievable with genetic engineering.

Conversely: imagine a planet of men.... How lovely would that be?

Does this picture help to distinguish some important sex differences? Men are lucky women continue to put up with you! lol

 

[Thoth-Amon]

A famous feminist once said "women need men like a fish needs a bicycle". Women give birth and nurture (apart from a few odd ones) and men are entirely responsible for wars and are overwhelmingly responsible for criminality. What do you guys say about the idea that men are a problem in the world and that it would be a solution if women were 99% of the population and just had a few male studs around to procreate with (but who were allowed no other role)? This is achievable with genetic engineering.

Conversely: imagine a planet of men.... How lovely would that be?

Does this picture help to distinguish some important sex differences? Men are lucky women continue to put up with you! lol

Hmmmm a planet of mostly women with only some men left around for breeding? Sign me up!!!!

 

[Tongue_Ring]

What would happen if we abandoned the superfluous categories of 'man' and 'woman' and simply existed as a group of entities striving towards some kind of goal or set of goals?

if we were having a discussion about transsexuals, then this post would make sense, but in this conversation it just sounds stupid

 

[Tongue_Ring]

What would happen if we abandoned the superfluous categories of 'man' and 'woman' and simply existed as a group of entities striving towards some kind of goal or set of goals?

if we were having a discussion about transsexuals, then this post would make sense, but in this conversation it just sounds stupid

 

[BloodSword]

I strongly believe that upbringing and society interpret the people we become. But, initially I wanted to know if collectively, forum members believe that women and men would be best served if a balance between us could be established. That being said, maybe I am naive in stating that when a man and woman meet, fall in love, and decide to be together, that the survival of said relationship should be their only concern. So, the hell with society and it's expectations of them. My feeling would be of providing, protecting, respecting and loving my significant other. You know, I am a man and I must keep my vow. A woman's desire should be to nurture, understand, support and love her man. Maybe I am old-fashioned in believeing these things, but human beings seem to take something that is reasonable, understandable and basically simplistic, and make it complicated. Why? I don't know about anyone else but, money, material possesions are all nice to a degree, but for me a truly rich and fulfilled man is one who is in a flourishing relationship wih who he loves, and who truly loves him. I will never stop trying to attain this, for I am going to hold a soft, beautiful woman. Not my favorite motorcycle or car. If you are unable to dream, then you have nothing.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Those are beautiful sentiments that no one could argue with.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Hmmmm a planet of mostly women with only some men left around for breeding? Sign me up!!!!

I just knew someone was going to say that
Seriously, this women planet thing is quite sensible IMO and if one could press a button and miraculously change what we have now into that I think it might be a good idea.
May be that really will be a future scenario. (I reallly like men, personally, I hasten to add).

Actually I doubt it could happen in reality judging by the way matriarchal societies like the Celts and the Spartans couldn't compete against other tribes who were male orientated.

Western women all want a man of our own but if we were brought up in a situation where that never happened I bet we'd adapt and not be resentful about it, as it would be the same for us all.

 

[Demiurge]

My position is that we dramatically underestimate the importance of heredity. Genetics play a far greater role than they are often given credit for by neo-Marxists. However, the evidence is becoming so overwhelming that I see signs of the ice melting, at least in certain fields.

BTW, the psychological differences do not seem to be overwhelming. Women are more neurotic and agreeable cross-culturally and display a smaller standard deviation in intelligence. Males are more spread. There is also research indicating that men are + .4 SD overall, but more studies need to be conducted for verification.

I also disagree with Justin S. when it comes to physical differences. Compared to the average woman, the average man possesses an imposing physique. We are not as dimorphic as gorillas, but there are significant differences in strength between the genders. There is also a difference in reaction time that favors males, and I'm sure many others.

 

[Horus]

A famous feminist once said "women need men like a fish needs a bicycle". Women give birth and nurture (apart from a few odd ones) and men are entirely responsible for wars and are overwhelmingly responsible for criminality.

And a famous high school student once said:
"It's just too bad women can't give birth without men to help."

 

[Demiurge]

Talk of establishing a society of women is fine and dandy, but realize that if you tried it, the opposing gender would be forced to defeat you, and keep you in cages to be removed for breeding purposes only.

If you are familiar with transhumanism, there are some transhumanists who wish to develop technology to allow humans to transcend gender, and reproduce asexually. Take that for what you will.

 

[BloodSword]

It's been real "nice" corressponding with and reading your posts. More important and vital responsibilities must be met. I have been asked, and heartily accept an invitation to the "Planet of Women." I am needed, and will never refuse a woman to help her. Good-bye and Good-luck. My ship is sailing.