Would it be better if drugs were legalized?

[razoredge]

yeah, I know all of what I wrote. replying to biased alarmist spindoctoring . good job with the interpretation and even better job turning to calling me cop out, as if I have anything I need to state again

some people are obviously worried about whether they can do drugs legally as a matter of self interest

Im looking the selling of it and from a overall social standpoint and the governments duty

go do your illegal drugs and be happy, nothings likely to be changing anytime soon.

 

[Satanstoenail]

yeah, I know all of what I wrote. replying to biased alarmist spindoctoring . good job with the interpretation and even better job turning to calling me cop out, as if I have anything I need to state again

I'm not sure how else to interpret a comment like "opening the door to drug trafficking" tbh. It's like a pro-lifer saying 'abortion is opening the door to sexual promiscuity'.

some people are obviously worried about whether they can do drugs legally as a matter of self interest

Are they? Who are these people? And how do you know this? Or are you perhaps just pathetically clutching at straws here?

Im looking the selling of it and from a overall social standpoint and the governments duty

That's funny, so am I.

go do your illegal drugs and be happy, nothings likely to be changing anytime soon.

Go take your assumptions and your condescending tone and ride away on your moral high horse with your head held high and your tail between your legs. That was pathetic.

 

[razoredge]

I'm not sure how else to interpret a comment like "opening the door to drug trafficking" tbh. It's like a pro-lifer saying 'abortion is opening the door to sexual promiscuity'.

That is the title of the topic, its about putting hard drugs on drug store shelves so anyone could walk in and buy them, condoned by the government, taxed... placeing profits for government from the sale of drugs... wonderful, presumably over the age of 21... which opens a new door in itself for more illegal activities, but others can ponder this themselves along with why should we still need doctors to prescribe medicine at that point, lets just put it all on the shelves for free sampleing. Yet you want to start shit with me because Im the only one that covered all the various issues... fuck off, jack off



Are they? Who are these people? And how do you know this? Or are you perhaps just pathetically clutching at straws here?

Well it seems you have much experience in this area from previous posts, I have no feeling of guilt for drawing this assumption.



That's funny, so am I.

Then why do most posts by yourself and others seem so focused on doing drugs rather than dealing ?



Go take your assumptions and your condescending tone and ride away on your moral high horse with your head held high and your tail between your legs. That was pathetic.

What the fuck are you talking about ? Dont start in on "me". I have a multitude of long posts on this topic since the beginning and I have covered every aspect I can think of. How in the hell this turns into me ducking and running is beyond me. What the fuck are you trying to start trouble for? How about you answer that. Im willing to be you never read the entire topic in full, Im not going to cover all that stuff again. You are as I said, pissed off because I simply wont agree with legalized drug dealing, get over it, it is my right and nobody has yet to present anything where the pros outweigh the cons or any proof that there still wont be plenty of illegal activity. But go ahead and paint your overall euphoric scenerio as I have done my "alarmist" (realistic) one. I dont recall you doing this yet.

 

[Satanstoenail]

That is the title of the topic, its about putting hard drugs on drug store shelves so anyone could walk in and buy them, condoned by the government, taxed... placeing profits for government from the sale of drugs... wonderful, presumably over the age of 21... which opens a new door in itself for more illegal activities, but others can ponder this themselves along with why should we still need doctors to prescribe medicine at that point, lets just put it all on the shelves for free sampleing. Yet you want to start shit with me because Im the only one that covered all the various issues... fuck off, jack off

What I've been trying to say since my first post in this thread is that decriminalisation or legalisation wouldn't be (and shouldn't be) anything like the scenario you present. Hard drugs on shelves is far from the reality I imagine. Lessening of criminal charges and more education and research are the main things I would hope for. I don't know why you think you've "covered all the issues" when all you've done is repeatedly ram your biased predictions of society on drugs down everyone's throats without even considering an alternate scenario for a second. I also I don't know why you're telling me to fuck off here...?

Well it seems you have much experience in this area from previous posts, I have no feeling of guilt for drawing this assumption.

Throwing half-baked assumptions around just makes you look like a fool. Especially considering what you're accusing me of.

Then why do most posts by yourself and others seem so focused on doing drugs rather than dealing ?

Have you even read any of my posts?

What the fuck are you talking about ? Dont start in on "me". I have a multitude of long posts on this topic since the beginning and I have covered every aspect I can think of. How in the hell this turns into me ducking and running is beyond me. What the fuck are you trying to start trouble for? How about you answer that. Im willing to be you never read the entire topic in full, Im not going to cover all that stuff again. You are as I said, pissed off because I simply wont agree with legalized drug dealing, get over it, it is my right and nobody has yet to present anything where the pros outweigh the cons or any proof that there still wont be plenty of illegal activity. But go ahead and paint your overall euphoric scenerio as I have done my "alarmist" (realistic) one. I dont recall you doing this yet.

I've only attacked your argument, this is nothing personal and I can't believe I just had to say that. And I'm the one starting trouble?? You are the one accusing me of being a drug user who is only interested in reforms for personal gain.

I'm not pissed off because you don't agree with me, I'm pissed off with your absolute opinion and predictions regarding this issue. If the approach the government has been using for years was working, then I could understand your unwavering support for the cause. I don't pretend to have proof of anything nor am I going to attempt to present a euphoric scenario where everything turns out super fine and dandy, I'm merely suggesting that trying a new approach would be a good idea in my eyes because as I've said about a hundred times now, zero tolerance doesn't work.

 

[razoredge]

The governments criminal program is working, the jails are full of drug dealers and on occasion we have the fortune of them shooting each other up, win/win

People that still want to do drugs have the freedom to do so and are doing just that. They have an element of risk and a greater element of deterrent against becoming a dealer. In the mean time others dont have an open door through conscience to lower themselves to dealing with the dealer element, that is surely a win/win. Now if smilin Sam in the drug store has a taxed gram of coke sitting on the shelve just waiting for you, things might be a little different, especially as years go by and this becomes more socially accepted, which I have no doubt they would.

This is a very broad subject of many concerns. So maybe we could do better addressing one tiny aspect of the topic at a time.

Seems to me your decriminalization would only be leniant on users but we would still have the same element doing the dealing which isnt all bad but I fail to see how that would change things much. I mentioned it way back in the beginning of the topic that in the 70's posession of less than 7/8 or 5/8 of an ounce was decriminalized in NY state, Im not sure where that stands today. Since the price went through the roof you could still be considered a dealer with that much today.

 

[No-Mercy]

to an extent, only because people arent being stopped from using them. i still think the same education about them should be offered, regardless of legality.

i think if they were to be legalized, there would a margin of time, id guess within a decade, where things would completely fall apart in many aspects. i think the streets would turn much dirtier than they ever have been, and it would almost be chaotic to say the extreme. i think all crime rates would increase, (of course exluding the drop of drug use/sell crime).

though, i can also make an arguement by saying that it would really change nothing for the better...other than eliminating the criminals that are created by the purchase/use/distribution of drugs. does no longer considering them criminals really help?

though i think after that time things would settle and it may indeed be better. but, i just dont think we can risk the initial effects at this point.

 

[Satanstoenail]

The governments criminal program is working, the jails are full of drug dealers and on occasion we have the fortune of them shooting each other up, win/win

Oh yeah totally. Jails full of people, many of whom are juveniles, locked up for relatively minor offenses. Blanket laws. Violence and drug gangs. A lack of facilities and education for drug users and next to no proper research about the substances that so many people are ingesting. Kids expelled from school for possessing drugs go on to become criminals or junkies. Win/win for sure.

People that still want to do drugs have the freedom to do so and are doing just that. They have an element of risk and a greater element of deterrent against becoming a dealer. In the mean time others dont have an open door through conscience to lower themselves to dealing with the dealer element, that is surely a win/win.

Police sniffer dogs outside clubs & bars, harsh penalties, zero tolerance, I'd hardly call these things freedom. Perfectly sane, normal people are being fucked over by these laws everyday.

Now if smilin Sam in the drug store has a taxed gram of coke sitting on the shelve just waiting for you, things might be a little different, especially as years go by and this becomes more socially accepted, which I have no doubt they would.

Again with the taxed drugs on shelves argument. Did you know that The Netherlands, which has had softer drug laws for years, has a much lower percentage of people using drugs of all kinds than the U.S.? They also have much lower rates of problem abuse and much better treatment programs for problem abusers. There are no hard drugs on shelves, and large-scale criminal drug activity is still prohibited.

This is a very broad subject of many concerns. So maybe we could do better addressing one tiny aspect of the topic at a time.

Well maybe if you'd learn how to quote properly...

Seems to me your decriminalization would only be leniant on users but we would still have the same element doing the dealing which isnt all bad but I fail to see how that would change things much.

I don't think Johnny Raver selling some pills to his mates on the weekend should be thrown in jail either, but anyway. Harsher penalties have seen people's lives ruined because once they have a police record, they're severely limited in what they can do with their lives. Perhaps with less people being prosecuted for minor offences, the police could focus more of their energy on the high level crime side of things.

I mentioned it way back in the beginning of the topic that in the 70's posession of less than 7/8 or 5/8 of an ounce was decriminalized in NY state, Im not sure where that stands today. Since the price went through the roof you could still be considered a dealer with that much today.

Since the penalties went though the roof you mean.

 

[Demonite]

I think that drugs should be legalized. I think it's a personal choice that shouldn't be dictated by anyone but the user.

 

[razoredge]

Oh yeah totally. Jails full of people, many of whom are juveniles, locked up for relatively minor offenses. Blanket laws. Violence and drug gangs. A lack of facilities and education for drug users and next to no proper research about the substances that so many people are ingesting. Kids expelled from school for possessing drugs go on to become criminals or junkies. Win/win for sure.

Im not sure if this is the case in this counrty.(Jails full of people, many of whom are juveniles, locked up for relatively minor offenses) But there is your education, shouldnt be to hard for someone to see the freight train comming when they see people around the neighborhood as junkies, shot up or in jail. I also dont know that their is any lack of research into drugs either. Are you suggesting that kids be allowed in school with drugs ? Just slapped on the wrist and told, "no, no" so they can come back the next day and try again... listen very closely... FUCK THEM !

I don't think Johnny Raver selling some pills to his mates on the weekend should be thrown in jail either, but anyway. Harsher penalties have seen people's lives ruined because once they have a police record, they're severely limited in what they can do with their lives. Perhaps with less people being prosecuted for minor offences, the police could focus more of their energy on the high level crime side of things.

yeah, date rape drugs are awesome and clearly have nothing to do with drug related crimes, so Johnny & friends should party hardy. I have already covered the aspect of user penalties with the random drug screening for work, none the less I'll never feel sorry for a busted coke or crack head, they are problems for everyone around them, that is from first hand experience.

Police sniffer dogs outside clubs & bars, harsh penalties, zero tolerance, I'd hardly call these things freedom. Perfectly sane, normal people are being fucked over by these laws everyday.

We dont have that around here, must be some serious problems elsewhere. I already covered the aspect of random drug testing for work.

Again with the taxed drugs on shelves argument. Did you know that The Netherlands, which has had softer drug laws for years, has a much lower percentage of people using drugs of all kinds than the U.S.? They also have much lower rates of problem abuse and much better treatment programs for problem abusers. There are no hard drugs on shelves, and large-scale criminal drug activity is still prohibited.

Yes, Amsterdam, a shinning example of humanity

If there are no hard drugs on shelves how is this supposed to change any part of the " Violence and drug gangs." ?

Well maybe if you'd learn h
ow to quote properly...

totally missed my point we are still wasteing time here, doing gobs of copy and pasteing is not productive. I meant delve deeply into one particular at a time.

Since the penalties went though the roof you mean.

No I meant because no one can afford a "dime bag" anymore

 

[Einherjar86]

Yes, Amsterdam, a shinning example of humanity

It's a shining example of humanity living free. Do you see record numbers of people dying or being thrown in over-crowded jails?

 

[Satanstoenail]

Im not sure if this is the case in this counrty.(Jails full of people, many of whom are juveniles, locked up for relatively minor offenses) But there is your education, shouldnt be to hard for someone to see the freight train comming when they see people around the neighborhood as junkies, shot up or in jail.

Well if that education is working so well, then why do we still have any problems associated with drugs?

I also dont know that their is any lack of research into drugs either.

There is a huge lack of knowledge and proper research on illegal drugs because they're illegal. Nevermind that millions of people consume them everyday.

Are you suggesting that kids be allowed in school with drugs ? Just slapped on the wrist and told, "no, no" so they can come back the next day and try again... listen very closely... FUCK THEM !

Of course I'm not suggesting kids should be allowed to bring drugs to school, jesus christ. But if you really feel that any kid who does drugs and fucks up should be thrown to the wolves and denied an education or a second chance, then fuck you.

yeah, date rape drugs are awesome and clearly have nothing to do with drug related crimes, so Johnny & friends should party hardy.

What the hell are you talking about? Where did I condone the use of date rape drugs? Stop twisting my words.

I have already covered the aspect of user penalties with the random drug screening for work, none the less I'll never feel sorry for a busted coke or crack head, they are problems for everyone around them, that is from first hand experience.

Again you're twisting my words to suit your argument. I said perfectly normal people, not problem users.

We dont have that around here, must be some serious problems elsewhere. I already covered the aspect of random drug testing for work.

We have it here, and our problems are no more serious than yours. Expect to see it in your country soon, I'm sure you'll be jumping for joy.

Yes, Amsterdam, a shinning example of humanity

That's all you've got? Look at the figures, buddy. They're doing a hell of a lot better than Australia and the U.S. in terms of dealing with drug problems.

If there are no hard drugs on shelves how is this supposed to change any part of the " Violence and drug gangs." ?

It's called starting somewhere. Do you think The Netherlands has as much of a problem as the U.S. or Australia with these things?

totally missed my point we are still wasteing time here, doing gobs of copy and pasteing is not productive. I meant delve deeply into one particular at a time.

You're the one going on long winded rants, choosing what suits you to respond to. At least quoting properly enables each particular to be addressed concisely in an easy to read format.


I'm off on holidays tomorrow, so this will be my last post regarding this issue (unless the thread is still going in a month, which wouldn't surprise me).

 

[sk8ordie97]

Legalizing drugs would stop alot of people from taking them, because they only do it for the sake of breaking the law. But it would also cause a new "trend" of something more illegal and harmful

 

[razoredge]

Amsterdam is the arm pit of the world

 

[Einherjar86]

That's one of the dumbest things you've ever said. Good job.

 

[razoredge]

well the few pieces I have seen on Amsterdam didnt impress me much but you on the other hand found it to be shiney, oh well, I'll be content with where I live.

 

[Volve]

Many people I know go to Amsterdam. They seem to like it there, they even go twice.
...and they are not addicted to drugs.

On the other hand. When The Netherlands makes drugs legal as the only country in Europe, it only makes fighting drugs more difficult in the rest of Europe. A lot of the drugs for Europe comes through the Netherlands.

 

[Vimana]

If the US legalizes drugs we will lower crime in other countries. We are a huge buyer of drugs. There is no reason they should be illegal. Cars are legal, yet they kill more people than drugs. Fatty food kills more people too iirc. So why isn't that illegal?

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

Many people I know go to Amsterdam. They seem to like it there, they even go twice.
...and they are not addicted to drugs.

On the other hand. When The Netherlands makes drugs legal as the only country in Europe, it only makes fighting drugs more difficult in the rest of Europe. A lot of the drugs for Europe comes through the Netherlands.

They have no obligation to enforce other countries' rules. The rest of Europe can cry the Dutch a river, though it will not matter as the Dutch are good dyke-builders.

 

[razoredge]

If the US legalizes drugs we will lower crime in other countries. We are a huge buyer of drugs. There is no reason they should be illegal. Cars are legal, yet they kill more people than drugs. Fatty food kills more people too iirc. So why isn't that illegal?

All idealistic blanket statements that do not delve into all the realistic angles of the bigger picture

 

[Einherjar86]

Your "realistic angles" are scare tactics that don't follow any logical thought process. You think that if drugs are legalized the entire nation will go up in flames. I can't even begin to describe how illogical and unjustified that statement is.