Would Joey ever consider using real amps?

[timislegend]

To be honest the fact that they mic up cabs and don't use pod farm isn't likely to have anything to do with why they're not fully booked. Just like Joey using pod farm isn't the reason he is fully booked for a good year or so in advance.

well... they're not fully booked because they have lost the ability to grow (for lack of a better term).

and the fact that they can barely operate pro tools also excuses them from any available amp sim.

actually it's quite possible that joey's schedule is booked because he knows how long it takes to make things happen (as should every engineer).

which is one thing i respect about the old timers... they never rush it.

but that's not the way things work... everything gets rushed and a lot of the older engineers can't factor that into their operation... set-up/teardown etc.

i know for a fact that if these dudes would just "bite the bullet" and try to hammer out the closet tone (with an ampsim) to their miked set-up it would leave them with more time to their up-scale clients but still allow their client base to flourish.

we have talked about it a million times and we would all pitch in to help them... but these folks are as stubborn as mules, (old mules).


i think joey's work sounds awesome but the reason he is such an excellent engineer is because he is very efficient.

joey is like an ipad and the old timer's are like a notepad.

 

[GearMan2point0]

joey is like an ipad and the old timer's are like a notepad.

perfect analogy!

 

[arv_foh]

it's interesting... i think amp sims have come so far today that the difference is negligible (depending on the software).

and typically the people that feel they need to stir up fuss about sim vs. real ...are people with a lot of time on their hands (in my experience).

I'm not sure I agree with this... I still don't think amp sims sound as good as a real amp mic'd up in a room. They just have this cold, digital quality to them.. that is a terrible description because it's hard to explain in words but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about

and I'm not saying that amp sim tones are bad, because I have heard some great ones.. I just prefer the sound of a real tube amp driving a 4x12 cab

I think mostly where the amp sims are lacking is in the cab/mic emulation (and possibly the coloration of a good preamp?). People on the sneap forum have posted tones that are amp sims run through a power amp and cab and I think those are a lot more pleasant sounding than completely ITB tones.

 

[timislegend]

I'm not sure I agree with this... I still don't think amp sims sound as good as a real amp mic'd up in a room.

and I'm not saying that amp sim tones are bad, because I have heard some great ones..

the fact that you can tell the difference doesn't mean that most people can't (which is actually the case). and to be honest, the average person doesn't give a hoot... to them, it's just a bunch of elitist mumbo-jumbo that get's in the way of experiencing the music.

this is why i said the difference is negligible.

good or bad, both are production capable... just one happens to be less time consuming.

i like both, and as i was saying (it's fun to run around and act like an engineer). but i use one more than the other.

 

[jimwilbourne]

I'm not sure I agree with this... I still don't think amp sims sound as good as a real amp mic'd up in a room. They just have this cold, digital quality to them.. that is a terrible description because it's hard to explain in words but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about

and I'm not saying that amp sim tones are bad, because I have heard some great ones.. I just prefer the sound of a real tube amp driving a 4x12 cab

I think mostly where the amp sims are lacking is in the cab/mic emulation (and possibly the coloration of a good preamp?). People on the sneap forum have posted tones that are amp sims run through a power amp and cab and I think those are a lot more pleasant sounding than completely ITB tones.

exactly.

I feel like one of the big issues with amp sims is that you have to consider signals throughout the entire chain.

example: creating a TS plug doesn't sound right unless you have the cab's IR to backup the sound.
I'm not sure that companies are all taking this into consideration.
but I'd like to see how other companies are creating their amp sims besides my own.

 

[Seth Munson]

I can agree that sims don't sound as good as the real deal but the problem I always run into is bands not willing to pay the time to dial in a good tone and reamp. They say the pod sounds good enough and they settle with that. And with how far I am booked into the year and how much work I have backed up I am sticking to the pod for now. (which in reality isn't a bad thing for me personally because everyone coming to me is because they liked one of my past productions which was pod)

And if I ever needed a real amp, I have tons of friends that do reamping services

When I have a couple of free hours here and there I practice my reamping and mic placement.

 

[gabriel g.]

the thing is : with a mesa os a tubescreamer and an sm57 every amp sounds great and far better then any amp sim.

It is so easy to get the good sound out of the mesa its retarted.

you could also set it up and never move the mic again.
This way you save a lot of post processing to make the steril sounding ampsims sound like a real amp.

for example the emmure cd sounds awsome but the steril high mids are killing me after 2 songs

 

[joeymusicguy]

I use podfarm, but when I get my studio together, so where I am not stuck in this dorm, I would like to expand. Joey, great respect to you man, you do excellent with your stuff. Have you ever tried micing? probably have, but you just couldn't get the great tone, or you got it but still didn't like it?

I have actually mic'd amps before. I've also done a hybrid of recording the fx loop of a head (the amp before the cab) and using cab sims.

you can actually get some cool results that way. Listen to the every bridge burned album, it was recorded that way.

 

[jpsmithrocks]

I have actually mic'd amps before. I've also done a hybrid of recording the fx loop of a head (the amp before the cab) and using cab sims.

you can actually get some cool results that way. Listen to the every bridge burned album, it was recorded that way.

I've done in the studio as well...

I'm a die hard tube guy... in my home practice room i have a 6505+, Jcm2000, Jcm800 and Bad Cat Black Cat... but i think that in this day and age its incredibly easier and less time consuming to just use Pods, or Peavey MK III, or eleven rack... whatever your poison is in the studio... I think in this day and age you can get pretty close to emulating any sort of tube guitar sound with waves, vintage warmers etc... ITB plug-ins...

I think its easier to mix, less time consuming to dial in a tone and eliminates the bs of dealing with an amp that sounded one way yesterday and sounds a tad bit different today...

 

[arv_foh]

I think its easier to mix, less time consuming to dial in a tone and eliminates the bs of dealing with an amp that sounded one way yesterday and sounds a tad bit different today...

I can dial in a great tone in less than an hour with a 5150 and Mesa OS and I have spent hours playing with amp sims and different cab/mic IRs and still don't end up satisfied with the sound.. I think part of it has to do with the fact that there are so fucking many cab/mic IRs and most of them are junk and finding the good ones is what is the most time consuming

 

[jpsmithrocks]

I have actually mic'd amps before. I've also done a hybrid of recording the fx loop of a head (the amp before the cab) and using cab sims.

you can actually get some cool results that way. Listen to the every bridge burned album, it was recorded that way.

I can dial in a great tone in less than an hour with a 5150 and Mesa OS and I have spent hours playing with amp sims and different cab/mic IRs and still don't end up satisfied with the sound.. I think part of it has to do with the fact that there are so fucking many cab/mic IRs and most of them are junk and finding the good ones is what is the most time consuming

Well i think that its a personal pref. i mean personally i think that joeys mixes are insanely good... and if a lot of bands were mixed by him i think they would sound better not that their mixes sound bad but his mixes are crisp, clean, articulate and his guitar tones are Godly...

With that said assuming you can match his guitar tone/mix down prowess I think it would be easier to use the Pod(s)...

anyone can get a good tone on a 5150... however I have heard of far less being able to capture that good tone and mix it, in such a way that you can match joeys...

With that said he does not have to deal with moving amps in and out, having deal the noise of mic'ing an amp or amps at full volume to push the tubes...

dealing the cables going everywhere it makes it incredibly easier the bands to travel as well as all they need to bring are their guitars...

 

[arv_foh]

anyone can get a good tone on a 5150... however I have heard of far less being able to capture that good tone and mix it, in such a way that you can match joeys...

Do you ever listen to any other metal/rock producers than Joey? Andy Sneap, Randy Staub, Colin Richardson, Jason Suecof, Adam D, Zeuss, Machine etc

They all have beast guitar tones on their albums and I feel pretty confident in saying that they all use real amps

 

[tempe]

I think the reason people are so impressed with Joey's guitar tones is due to everything but the guitar tone. The tone itself is good but I've heard better and I'm sure Joey will attest to that. What makes it work though is how tightly everything is edited and the weight behind the bass / kick / snare. It's not the guitars that make sturgis albums massive its EVERYTHING else. Which is why the pod works for Joey, the guitars are never the most dominant feature, or if they are there is a hell of a lot going on around them to make it work.

 

[jpsmithrocks]

Do you ever listen to any other metal/rock producers than Joey? Andy Sneap, Randy Staub, Colin Richardson, Jason Suecof, Adam D, Zeuss, Machine etc

They all have beast guitar tones on their albums and I feel pretty confident in saying that they all use real amps

First of this is a thread for joey not suecof, not sneap, not richardson, Dutkiewicz and were discussing specifically why joey does or does not use real amps in his musical productions and/or if he will or will not use them in the future...

secondly, Adam D is tied for my favorite producers with Joey... and although adam does use real amps and his production discography is incredible and his tones are insurmountable...

I think joeys mix's are better... drums wise...

but we'll have a direct comparison when the new Prada comes out...

finally were not talking just about guitar tones but how they sit inside the mix and I think that what joey has been able to accomplish with a POD is amazing considering that the bands who record with your aforementioned producers usually have an exponentially greater budget then the recording acts he records...

P.S. why dont you talk to suecof, sneap and machine and i think youll be surprised to know that your previous statement was full of S*** and that they do in fact use Pods and/or other guitar plug-ins to achieve their tones...

 

[arv_foh]

I think the reason people are so impressed with Joey's guitar tones is due to everything but the guitar tone. The tone itself is good but I've heard better and I'm sure Joey will attest to that. What makes it work though is how tightly everything is edited and the weight behind the bass / kick / snare. It's not the guitars that make sturgis albums massive its EVERYTHING else. Which is why the pod works for Joey, the guitars are never the most dominant feature, or if they are there is a hell of a lot going on around them to make it work.

exactly.

First of this is a thread for joey not suecof, not sneap, not richardson, Dutkiewicz and were discussing specifically why joey does or does not use real amps in his musical productions and/or if he will or will not use them in the future...

secondly, Adam D is tied for my favorite producers with Joey... and although adam does use real amps and his production discography is incredible and his tones are insurmountable...

I think joeys mix's are better... drums wise...

but we'll have a direct comparison when the new Prada comes out...

finally were not talking just about guitar tones but how they sit inside the mix and I think that what joey has been able to accomplish with a POD is amazing considering that the bands who record with your aforementioned producers usually have an exponentially greater budget then the recording acts he records...

P.S. why dont you talk to suecof, sneap and machine and i think youll be surprised to know that your previous statement was full of S*** and that they do in fact use Pods and/or other guitar plug-ins to achieve their tones...

You are just a close-minded fanboy. I post on the sneap forum regularly and you should see the stack of amp heads that sneap has in his studio.. and I've read studio diaries regularly from bands recording with suecof that show they are using 5150 III, amongst other various combos of amps. Mark Lewis, who works with Suecof, also posts on the Sneap forum occasionally.

What works for Joey works for Joey but there are tons of other options out there and you make it sound like amp sims are the goddamn godsend end all of guitar tone. I didn't know because it was his forum we couldn't talk about how other producers work, I'm sooooo sorry! I'll leave it at that and step out of this thread. Enjoy your POD br00talz

 

[jpsmithrocks]

exactly.




You are just a close-minded fanboy. I post on the sneap forum regularly and you should see the stack of amp heads that sneap has in his studio.. and I've read studio diaries regularly from bands recording with suecof that show they are using 5150 III, amongst other various combos of amps. Mark Lewis, who works with Suecof, also posts on the Sneap forum occasionally.

What works for Joey works for Joey but there are tons of other options out there and you make it sound like amp sims are the goddamn godsend end all of guitar tone. I didn't know because it was his forum we couldn't talk about how other producers work, I'm sooooo sorry! I'll leave it at that and step out of this thread. Enjoy your POD br00talz

Thats because i recall having a quite entertaining conversation with suecof and him telling me that he loved using an HD147... which im sorry to say is not a "REAL AMP" and funny how sneap posts his pod settings on his forum but of course he doesnt use pods...

Nobody said sims were a God send... what we are saying is that, thats what joey uses and dams does it sound good... and like Tempe said its not just the tones its how he is able to intricately position all that exists in that particular mix... to further enhance the sweet sound of what he's able to capture "ITB"

I cant stress enough that I too have an impressive collection of amps and how all those are fun to use and play with (live) however its easy for me especially when traveling to boot up a traveling song writing rig not have to bring heads, cabs/cab sims, mic stands, cables galor, pedal board to get the sound i want when im fully capable of getting amazing tones with line 6 gear...

and like i said... funny how were discussing if joey would ever consider using real amps and ignorance apparently is bliss again, considering that the bands who record with your aforementioned producers usually have an exponentially greater budget then the recording acts he records...

lastly... everyone has their approach... funny how i dont see a suecof forum on here, an arv_foh (brian k) forum on here, apparently joey's doing something right if he's created a very large fan base of individuals drooling at the thought being able to get his bus specs, his patch specs and his "method" of guitar tone creation...

 

[Trevoire520]

funny how sneap posts his pod settings on his forum but of course he doesnt use pods...

He posted one POD setting, once. As far as I'm aware Sneap mainly uses the pod for guide tracks, and possibly the occasional lead/clean overdub. He's still very much into his valve amps, as evidenced by his massive wall of amps in his studio, and this quote from an interview talking about the POD XT:

"I still wouldn’t put it above a good amp with an SM 57, and a good cab with Vintage 30s"

It's very well documented that Sneap uses a 5150 with a Mesa cab on the vast majority of the albums he records. He's just used a Marshall JVM through 2 different cabs using 3 different mic's on the new Arch Enemy record. So no, he doesn't generally use a POD in his productions. Just because Joey's using it doesn't mean everyone else is.

apparently joey's doing something right if he's created a very large fan base of individuals drooling at the thought being able to get his bus specs, his patch specs and his "method" of guitar tone creation...

The main reason that Joey has become so popular is that he started out making good sounding records using Slate drums and a POD XT. This is stuff that is much more within reach to your average band/bedroom producer than expensive valve amps etc. This makes his sound seem very accessible to those on a budget, hence his massive rise in popularity over a fairly short period of time.

 

[AllanD]

which im sorry to say is not a "REAL AMP" and funny how sneap posts his pod settings on his forum but of course he doesnt use pods...

I think Sneap ended up using pod on the Into Eternity record, and that's about it. Everything else sounds like an amp.


If you prefer using Line 6, then good for you. It's convenient, and that's where it wins. It's fast to come up with a decent tone. I would always prefer the sound of a real amp mic'd up, and many many many many others would agree with that. Truth is, I've never heard a POD tone where I didn't think it wasn't a POD. Not that it's an issue, it's just that a real amp will always sound better to me.

 

[gabriel g.]

To be honest, I think Joeys guitar-tones are his weakness.
they only work in the mix because they are ÜBER tight, so it just glues with the drums and bass.

I am not here to diss anyone but real amps would bring Joeys stuff on the next level IMHO.

I mean how heavy would be the new emmure with a guitar tone like Zeuss or Sneaps...

Same goes for Kicks IMO. They sound so slaty its not even funny

But Joey make it all work together and his creativity and over the top producing make this all work.

 

[ahjteam]

Thats because i recall having a quite entertaining conversation with suecof and him telling me that he loved using an HD147... which im sorry to say is not a "REAL AMP"

Except HD147 is a real, physical, guitar amp. Not just some bits on your hard drive.

funny how i dont see a suecof forum on here, an arv_foh (brian k) forum on here, apparently joey's doing something right if he's created a very large fan base of individuals drooling at the thought being able to get his bus specs, his patch specs and his "method" of guitar tone creation...

Those who want a forum, have a forum. Andy Sneap has one, Devin Townsend has one, highend wankers have Gearslutz, Joey has his new forum and so on. Those who don't want to share their "trade secrets" don't have a forum