Your Top 2009 releases so far...

Larry - It's all about perspective. For me personally, I listen to SO many genres of music, that I am used to bands with bombastic production (IE - Blind Guardian, Rhapsody, etc), as well as those with raw production (IE - Misfits, etc).

My first thought if I heard you guys were going to record a disc in your own studio and released the CD itself would be, "That's awesome! That's exactly what I would do if the label wasn't going to give the $$ necessary to do it otherwise"

As I said, all about perspective. For me, this is what I personally have done in the past, as well as many bands I listen to.

Hell, even long running bands, such as TROUBLE and OMEN, when without label, went on to self release CDs to keep the name out there.

I do 100% agree with all the factors you indicated about what happened with Nevermore and that it could impact the release. I guess my only point is that it didn't HAVE to impact the songwriting. They let it get to them.

very true....also, there are some here who post and do know what goes on behind the scenes with bands and labels, have been involved in it or have good freinds or family involved.

I have been listening to music for over 20 years and it never bothered me who produced an album. For me...I am more interested that the songs are good, catchy, and quality. Without that....an amazingly produced disc will still be crap.
 
I would worry that it wouldn't sound as good, but it wouldn't occur to me that the songwriting quality would be impacted. I think this is a valid concern. If band's could simply get together in their basements and come out with a ProTools disc that was on par with a Swano production, no one would go to a studio. So apparently, musicians think recording in studio, with a noteworthy producer, yields a better disc.

To be honest, I wasn't expecting to be let down by Enemies. At the time, I was completely unaware of the whole mess going down with CM. I simply knew they were using a different producer, in a different studio. And before the Enemies disaster, producer and studio wasn't something I ever paid much attanetion to.

Zod


Of course the songwriting shouldn't be impacted by the production. A bad song can't really be saved by a sterling production.

But to me there's more than just good songwriting that can make or break a disc. Many great songs or entire cds have been hindered by poor prouduction and such, and it does impact the way you feel about the music itself. There are songs by bands like Kiss, Priest, Maiden.....that I didn't care for so much when I heard their initial recordings, but then they had a different impact when recorded live, because the live recording and the performance given brought the songs to life in a different way. That's just an example.

As I said earlier, I'm not going to debate over whether the songwriting on Enemies was bad or not because that's subjective. I think the songwriting was decent on that record. Others disagree. Oh well. I was never indicating at all that the business side or production side of things impacted their songwriting. I think lots of people out there (again, MAYBE NOT YOU GUYS WHO ARE POSTING HERE...ugh) are the ones who let the production thing "impact" their opinion of the songwriting before they ever heard it.
 
I'm gonna wrap this up as this is going on far too long in this thread for me and I think perhaps some of my points are being mistaken.....


For you guys here, maybe because of your loyalty to ND or because you just personally don't think about production stuff that way, you seem to feel that you wouldn't be impacted by us announcing that we were going to DIY our next recording ourselves, and that you'd have total faith that we'd still deliver a great product. If that's how you guys feel, then we're thankful for that.

However, the fact of the matter is that a huge majority of people out there.....fans, detractors, and critics alike....will most likely view something like that with at least a sense of trepidation and skepticism. I've seen it happen too many times to too many artists. I've seen how many people's perceptions of us changed once we started working with people like Neil and Dan. And furthermore, while some bands can get away with putting out raw recordings, I don't think we're one of them. Hell look how many people out there jumped on our case just because they think our cds are mastered too loud??? lol

Our songwriting has never been and will never be impacted by how or where we record. But to say that people like Chris, Dan, Neil, etc., don't have an impact on how the music comes to life and fills out finally at the end would be a lie. Like I said before, we use these people for their talents and their ability to help us complete the whole picture. We don't use them for their name and their gear, that's all completely secondary. At the same time, we don't utilise these people just because we want good press and want people to feel good about our next record coming out either. We have standards that we have set for ourselves sonically, and we expect a certain quality from our recordings. If other people would be happy to hear an ND cd that's recorded in lesser conditions then that's good for them, but I don't think we'd be happy, and ultimately that's what matters the most to us, because we have to please ourselves and be able to live with what we do for the rest of our lives.

As for the Nevermore thing.....I think ultimately whether EoR was a weak record or the best thing since sliced bread didn't matter in the end, the label wasn't backing them up properly at the time and it impacted alot of things in their career. Putting out that record under those conditions didn't help matters.

And I personally think that even "weak" Nevermore is better than a huge majority of the crap in the metal scene these days anyhow. Don't care if you agree or not. So there fuckos hahaha ;)

Fini.
 
Larry - I think most of us understood your points. I personally agree with most of them. The main thing about production which you stated that I never really think about as a fan is it's impact on a critic reviewing the album.

You are right. If ND, or any other long running band on a well known label, went DIY with production, it would definitely get slammed by critics.

Though, as a fan, I would not enjoy a disc by a band any less if the production were weaker. I suppose it would depend on the band and style of music.

Ok, I will stop, as I know this has been beaten to death.
Also, I never intended this discussion to be about slamming Nevermore.
They were just the example in this discussion.

So what's next fellas!!!!!!!!
METALLICA VS MEGADETH
PRIEST VS MAIDEN
ICED EARTH VS NEVERMORE
KREATOR VS DESTRUCTION

I'm here all week!
 
metallica vs megadeth- metalica in the 80s, megadeth curently
priest vs maiden- gota go with maiden
iced earth vs nevermore- I guess iced earth
kreator vs destruction- kreator

keeping th off topicness alive!
 
Personally, I would never want to take a step backwards in quality. For the fans, for the critics, but most importantly for US. We're our biggest fans, and we're our worst critics. We have to be happy first and foremost.

We've found a formula that works, and works well, and unless something changes, I don't see us changing this formula if we don't have to. Chris and Dan give this band EXACTLY what we want to hear in a finished product.
 
metallica vs megadeth- metalica in the 80s, megadeth curently
priest vs maiden- gota go with maiden
iced earth vs nevermore- I guess iced earth
kreator vs destruction- kreator

keeping th off topicness alive!

Metallica vs. Megadeth- apples and oranges for me, I never got the whole comparing/competing thing with those two bands. "Death Magnetic" was one of my favorite cds last year, and the new Megadeth is one of my favorites this year. Win/win situation for me :)

Priest vs. Maiden- Same as above. Totally different bands that appeal to me for totally different reasons. I listen to them almost equally.

iced earth vs. nevermore- I respect IE but not a huge fan. Nevermore have more hooks, tighter playing, and I just like 'em alot.

Kreator vs. Destruction- Kreator for me, I think the songwriting overall has been more consistently good.

Yeah still off topic I know but I couldn't resist lol
 
metallica vs megadeth- metalica in the 80s, megadeth curently
priest vs maiden- gota go with maiden
iced earth vs nevermore- I guess iced earth
kreator vs destruction- kreator

keeping th off topicness alive!

I have been wrestling with Maiden VS Priest for the past 2 years.
From the mid 80s until a couple years ago, I was 100% Maiden ALL the way.
As I have dove more deeper into Priest's catalog, my opinion of them has changed a TON! (for the better I mean)
 
Metallica vs. Megadeth1983 - 1986... Metallica. 1987 - 2009. Megadeth. All-time... Metallica. Nothing Megadeth has done is on par with Ride and Masters.

Priest vs. Maiden. Maiden.

Iced Earth vs. Nevermore. Draw for now. Nevermore about to take a dominant lead.

Novembers Doom playing NYC in support of INRE vs. Novembers Doom not playing NYC in support of INRE. Novembers Doom playing NYC.

Zod
 
Maybe we will plan something for NY in the near future. It's been awhile since we were there.

Invite Shroud of Bereavement out. You've *got* to see the new-ish lineup perform. They were fantastic to begin with and are now really clicking.
 
On the Nevermore subject, I have to disagree with some of you guys. I personally this Enemies is a fantastic CD. I even liked it with the Kelly Grey production. Sure, the remix sounds better, but I thought it was decent, and the songs on that CD are great. I'd go as far to say, I think I may enjoy it more so then Godless Endeavor. Songs on enemies like I, Voyager and Tomorrow Turned Into Yesterday are just as good as any solid Nevermore song. When that CD came out, I was remodeling my basement at my old house, and played it over and over while working, and I thought it was a great follow up to Dead Heart. It seems i'm in the minority here.