Your Top 2009 releases so far...

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Interesting. Not sure how closely you were following the band at this time. They were heading into the final disc (Enemies) of their record deal with CM. They wanted to go free agent and CM played hard ball. When it came time to record Enemies, CM cut their funding by two thirds, wouldn't let them use the studio they wanted or the producer (Sneap) they wanted. Consequently, they ended up recording the disc in Kelly Gray's house. CM also didn't step up with the tour support. I think the whole experience put the band in a real bad headspace. I suspect they were hoping to capitalize on the momentum of Dead Heart, and the record company decided to fuck them. I too saw a show on the Dimmu tour. It was hands down the worst of the nine Nevermore shows I've seen. However, I caught them twice in support of Godless and they were the two finest Nevermore performances I've ever seen.

Zod

Note: I have no clue how much of the information above is factual. As with all things in the industry, unless you're directly involved, it's impossible to know how much is rumor.

Well I can tell you that from what I know, it's pretty factual.

I honestly believe that the lack of support and everything during the "Enemies" period really killed the momentum that band had built with "Dead Heart..." They should've gone on to be much more successful but they got screw-jobbed badly. Those guys have always had bad luck, it's a shame.

I know EOR didn't sound nearly as good as their Sneap produced efforts but I think alot of people tended to over-exaggerate it too. I didn't think it sounded THAT bad, though the remix is obviously far better.

I'm really curious to hear what this new album is going to be like.

 

[Jasonic]

I honestly believe that the lack of support and everything during the "Enemies" period really killed the momentum that band had built with "Dead Heart..." They should've gone on to be much more successful but they got screw-jobbed badly. Those guys have always had bad luck, it's a shame.

This is where my punk rock DIY background comes into play on my thoughts on this subject. Did it suck that they didn't get the support they wanted? YES! Did it impact their ability to do tours they wanted to do (IE - I know CM turned down their asking for support to do WARPED TOUR, etc) YES! Did they not get the promotional push they should have gotten? YES!

The better question - Should ANY of the above scenarios impact the quality of their music??? NO!

I know I will get shit stormed upon for this, and that is perfectly fine.

You get a break, you get a break. If you don't, and get a screwjob, life goes on. In the end, if you are in it for the love of the music, the music itself should not suffer. I think most would agree, even hardcore NM fans, that there was a lot more than just the production of Enemies that made that album and tour pale in comparison to previous efforts.

A lot of bands who have gotten a LOT rawer deals than they did still kept up quality music.

Hell - let's keep this on topic, with Novembers Doom. They certainly do not get the promotional dollars that other bands whose name I will not mention on THE END records do. Guess what though????? The quality of their music has steadily increased with each and every recording.

I seriously hope no one here is taking any of my comments as a slam to anyone, or even Nevermore as a whole. My own personal experiences all stem from punk rock, either as a band member, band manager, or show promoter. EVERYTHING, aside from a couple compilation appearances, came out of my own pocket. 100% DIY - from paying for recording, sending the DAT tapes (yeah, old school mother fuckers!!!)to the pressing plant, making 7" covers at Kinkos, etc. etc.

I am not saying any of this to mean that the DIY way means that DIY bands are any better or more deserving. But it does make me say, "boo freakin hoo!" to any band that would say, "we lost momentum because our label didn't give us $$$$" Sorry.

 

[General Zod]

Those guys have always had bad luck, it's a shame.

Some bands seem snake-bitten. Nevermore seems to fall into that category.

I know EOR didn't sound nearly as good as their Sneap produced efforts but I think alot of people tended to over-exaggerate it too. I didn't think it sounded THAT bad, though the remix is obviously far better.

I think bad production hurt them more than it might some bands. Jeff and Van are pretty busy players. I think when you have a lot going on and there's no separation in the mix, it not only lacks the bite and pop of a DHiaDW production, but just generally sounds muddled.

The better question - Should ANY of the above scenarios impact the quality of their music??? NO!

I know I will get shit stormed upon for this, and that is perfectly fine.

Not from me, just some good old, respectful disagreement.

When you've been at this as long as these guys have (especially Warrel and Jim) and you finally see a light at the end of the tunnel, to have your record company, the one entity on the planet that should be committed to your success, shit all over you, it's got to be disheartening. And when you're dealing with that shitstorm, it's not shocking that the end product would suffer.

I seriously hope no one here is taking any of my comments as a slam to anyone, or even Nevermore as a whole. My own personal experiences all stem from punk rock, either as a band member, band manager, or show promoter. EVERYTHING, aside from a couple compilation appearances, came out of my own pocket. 100% DIY - from paying for recording, sending the DAT tapes (yeah, old school mother fuckers!!!)to the pressing plant, making 7" covers at Kinkos, etc. etc.

As with all things in life, it's a matter of perspective and expectation. You never had any expectation of making a living from Punk music. So making 7" covers at Kinkos probably wasn't a disheartening experience for you.

And here's the other side of this... perhaps Enemies was going to be a lackluster disc no matter how it was produced and promoted. Even great bands don't hit a homerun every time up. Perhaps Nevermore was simply trying something musically which ultimately didn't work. Given that no two discs of theirs sound similar, it wouldn't be shocking that one would be a less than stellar effort.

Zod

 

[Jasonic]

As with all things in life, it's a matter of perspective and expectation. You never had any expectation of making a living from Punk music. So making 7" covers at Kinkos probably wasn't a disheartening experience for you.

Well, this is certainly true.
I never looked at anything I did with music to be a source of income.
It was ALL expense! Ha!
Any income earned went right into the savings for recording bucket.

I certainly can understand how disheartening it must be to not get the label support you want. Though, considering label shopping was at the forefront of their minds at some point, wouldn't you think they would want to try even harder????

Sure, not EVERY album can be killer. Many bands have that "one" album in the discography they might wish either did not exist or came out differently.

Well, we are not the guys in Nevermore, so we will never know 100% what was going on in their minds.

Not saying at all this was the case with NM, but I have heard of bands who when fulfilling their last album for a label they were at odds with purposefully put out material not 100% up to par. Almost as an "F*ck you" to that label, saving their best material for what was to come. Once again, not saying that NM "did" this in any way. Just saying that it has been done.

I can name many examples in punk, esp for bands who finally gave in to signing to a major label, once they knew it was going ot be their last album anyway. They write and record a half assed album, then took the signing bonus, did a half asses tour, and then called it quits. There were literally $1 million reasons why certain bands do this. Ha!

 

[Psychonaut]

I think Deicide did it as well with Incineratehymn and In Torment, In Hell.

 

[General Zod]

Not saying at all this was the case with NM, but I have heard of bands who when fulfilling their last album for a label they were at odds with purposefully put out material not 100% up to par. Almost as an "F*ck you" to that label, saving their best material for what was to come. Once again, not saying that NM "did" this in any way. Just saying that it has been done.

I agree. It does happen. Bands also save material. Iced Earth didn't deliver on the concept Jon had been planning for years, until they left CM. Granted those discs completely sucked, but he did it none the less.

Zod

 

[Jasonic]

Oh boy Zod!!!
Did you just open the door on the NEVERMORE VS ICED EARTH discussion??????????

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

I know this is continuing to be off-topic but everything that Jasonic/Zod have been going back and forth about today makes me raise a question here for everyone.....

If we announced tomorrow that we were not going to be using Swano, or Murphy, or Kernon, or Djuricic, and that we were recording the next cd in our rehearsal space with ProTools on a laptop with a local unknown producer whose only credits were working with acts that sound nothing like ND, can you tell me honestly that alot of fans out there wouldn't automatically assume that the next cd was going to be a letdown?

Whether or not the material written on "Enemies..." was better or worse than their other material is pointless to argue, because it's subjective and down to personal taste. So that's a moot point to me. My point with my previous post was that alot of NM fans that I knew and I saw on forums and such were already dreading and assuming that the "Enemies..." cd was going to be a letdown when they heard it was being done the way it was (i.e. in a small studio, Kelly Gray, no Sneap, etc.) I think anyone with an ear can tell that the production was indeed a setback for that cd compared to what they'd had previously, I'm not arguing that. But I think that alot of people did judge the music to be of lesser quality overall because of the production and the way it impacted their opinions. This might not have been the case for you particularly Jason, but I'm not really even talking about you, just talking about the situation in general.

Plus, honestly, I don't really care if you like Nevermore or not, haha. It doesn't affect my opinion of you or anything, and I've never been big on arguing with people over their musical tastes and preferences. I brought up the stuff about NM getting screwjobbed because of what Zod mentioned, and the point that I have heard things myself that've come more directly from people in the know which backs up what he said.


Oh, and for the record, yes we've managed to continue to get along and make great sounding records and do our thing regardless of lack of sufficient support from labels in the past. But if you think it hasn't seriously impaired us in ways too, well.......there's nothing worse than having momentum killed by factors outside the band that you have little to no control over, and I feel badly for bands when I see that happen to them.

 

[Diabolik]

Having less of a name producer and recording software wouldnt effect my judgement or thought of what it was going to sound like. The last Twisted Tower Dire disc was recorded without all the bells and whistles. The CD before that had amazing production values and everything about the release was perfect. The last disc sounded like it was recorded in a garage. Still the heart and soul was there and the songs are still top notch. That will always show through. The best production in the world cant fix a lackluster heartless album. Like the old saying goes....you cant polish a turd.

I do think the attitude of "oh we didnt have the money" or "we need this to doa show" is one of the aspects that cripples the metal scene. You dont need fancy light set ups or back drops to put on an amazing show. When Edguy played the Logan Square Auditorium....it was a total ghetto show with no bells and whistles....they even made jokes about it and put 100% into that show...it was the best time I have ever seen them play. Some of the funnest and craziest shows I have seen were at the oddest places that really dont do shows.

it is all about heart and effort. While I am not a Nevermore fan, nor surprised the label screwed them. It sucks. But to claim that is what hurt thier momentum....how about cancelling a few times on the Prog Power USA event? think that was a good idea?

oh well....we can argue all day but there will never be a winner in this type of debate.

 

[Novembers Paul]

Like the old saying goes....you cant polish a turd.

MythBusters proved you CAN indeed polish a turd!

 

[great_kthulu]

MythBusters proved you CAN indeed polish a turd!

yes, mythbusters proved that one indeed, awsome show!

 

[OPETH_DT]

I'm on the fence about that Them Crooked Vultures disc. Is it worth picking up?

 

[The Spirit Seed]

If we announced tomorrow that we were not going to be using Swano, or Murphy, or Kernon, or Djuricic, and that we were recording the next cd in our rehearsal space with ProTools on a laptop with a local unknown producer whose only credits were working with acts that sound nothing like ND, can you tell me honestly that alot of fans out there wouldn't automatically assume that the next cd was going to be a letdown?

.

Shit, I'd STILL buy it on the first day of release and declare it Top CD of the year.

 

[AnTz0r]

If we announced tomorrow that we were not going to be using Swano, or Murphy, or Kernon, or Djuricic, and that we were recording the next cd in our rehearsal space with ProTools on a laptop with a local unknown producer whose only credits were working with acts that sound nothing like ND, can you tell me honestly that alot of fans out there wouldn't automatically assume that the next cd was going to be a letdown?

Well, if things in the recording industry keep on sucking this is not an entirely impossible situation. My first reaction was "Well these guys always stand for quality, they'd sooner quit than make a crappy recording." But let me ask you a return question then: if things in the recording industry keep on sucking, and you see your recording budget evaporize, you might actually face this choice: go DYI in some "home studio" or call it a day. I hope you'll never have to make this choice.

However, in my opinion it is entirely possible to make a decent record in that situation. The only thing you're gonna need the equipment of a studio for is recording drums. Say you get that out of the way in some half-decent studio. You record all drums with triggers, just to be sure. That gives you a lot of possibility to take the tracks home and do everything you can with them. You can take a guitar sound a long way with lots of layering and cab plugins if you can't record a mesa on 11 in your home studio, hehe. Vocals are probably easiest. Sure, the difference between good and great is probably a lot bigger than between total crap and good, but you can certainly achieve results that would match up with plenty of discs out there right now.

I think having less equipment and staff available to you increases the experience and time you need to get to a similar sound, maybe even exponentially, but it's not impossible. If you do have that ProTools setup with a lot of plugins, would you feel comfortable enough at some point in the future to go that route if it was the only option, and if you felt that Zod's "heart" was in it? And do you think you could get a record out that would please your fans?

 

[AnTz0r]

And as for top 2009 releases... I didnt have the chance to listen to much new music this year. Of course your cd was great I was looking forward to some discs that got delayed into 2010. I was also looking forward to hearing an album, that got released on Itunes only. Still haven't heard it, I don't have Itunes or Ipods or Iphones...

My favorite new band i found this year was actually from a 2007 release: Vulture Industries. Amazing I haven't seen their name on any of these forums. Check it out if you're into Norwegian non-blackmetal!

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

I think it's entirely possible to make a good sounding recording with lesser gear and not in a big fancy studio, but it really comes down to the person(s) doing the recording and whether they have a good ear for it and all. Not to say the gear isn't important because it surely is, but having someone who knows what they're doing and has a real talent for it is the key. And this is why we pay for people like Dan or Neil or Chris or James, not for the gear they own but for their talents. I could win the lottery tomorrow and go out and buy all of the best recording gear, but there's no way I could make a record that sounds as good sonically as our last few have, because I don't have the know-how and ability to record it all properly and mix it properly and so forth. There's alot of good sounding, adequate recordings coming out these days that are being done in a more DIY fashion, for sure. But I think our cds rank more in the "really damn fucking good" sounding category, in terms of production quality and stuff. Would we be willing to take a big step backwards?? That's a tough one. I don't think we'd ever allow ourselves to put out an inferior product, there'd still have to be a certain quality level that it would have to attain in order for us to release it. I'd rather not do anything than do it half-assed.

But that's kinda besides the point, my point was really more about how certain fans and critics perceptions work, and how they will prejudge something and allow it to affect their listening experience and how they'll judge it. Perhaps you guys here might not allow that to happen, but there's alot of people out there who do. Just as there's alot of people who said, "Oh ND recorded with Swano, I gotta check that out", there's alot of people who are prone to thinking like, "Oh they didn't record with Swano this time, that's gonna blow." And honestly, I saw alot of this kind of attitude when Nevermore announced they weren't recording with Sneap and they were doing "Enemies..." the way they did. I saw alot of negative comments and attitude towards that release before people ever heard a note.

And sorry but, cancelling appearances at ProgPower pales in comparison to having a label completely drop the ball on your recording budget, your advertising budget, and your tour budget right after you just spent the last several years touring your asses off for two of your strongest releases (DHIADW and DNB). And compounded by the fact that this all happened right when this new surge of bands like Lamb Of God, Opeth, Shadows Fall, Mastodon, etc..., all hit the scene hard with loads of support behind them, Nevermore got left in the dust a bit.

You guys just gotta kinda take my word for this a bit......there's sooooo much fucking bullshit that goes on behind the scenes that most of you guys will never even hear about or maybe even understand, that affects bands in profound ways and determines whether they're a hit or miss or whether a record succeeds or fails.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

I'm on the fence about that Them Crooked Vultures disc. Is it worth picking up?

I'm pretty sure the band put up the album on YouTube to be heard, not sure if it's still there but you can check it out. It's decent, it's not a waste of money in my book, but at the same time not on my "you must buy this" mandatory list yknow what I mean?

 

[General Zod]

If we announced tomorrow that we were not going to be using Swano, or Murphy, or Kernon, or Djuricic, and that we were recording the next cd in our rehearsal space with ProTools on a laptop with a local unknown producer whose only credits were working with acts that sound nothing like ND, can you tell me honestly that alot of fans out there wouldn't automatically assume that the next cd was going to be a letdown?

I would worry that it wouldn't sound as good, but it wouldn't occur to me that the songwriting quality would be impacted. I think this is a valid concern. If band's could simply get together in their basements and come out with a ProTools disc that was on par with a Swano production, no one would go to a studio. So apparently, musicians think recording in studio, with a noteworthy producer, yields a better disc.

To be honest, I wasn't expecting to be let down by Enemies. At the time, I was completely unaware of the whole mess going down with CM. I simply knew they were using a different producer, in a different studio. And before the Enemies disaster, producer and studio wasn't something I ever paid much attanetion to.

Zod

 

[General Zod]

And honestly, I saw alot of this kind of attitude when Nevermore announced they weren't recording with Sneap and they were doing "Enemies..." the way they did. I saw alot of negative comments and attitude towards that release before people ever heard a note.

But just to frame this properly, Nevermore was coming off of a pair of discs that couldn't be more different, from a production perspective (Kernon on Dreaming, Sneap on Dead Heart). Ironically, next to Enemies, Dreaming is my least favorite production of all the CDs I own. I've never found a pair of speakers that CD sounds good on. Which truly sucks, as it is one of my Top 5 favorite CDs.

Zod

 

[Jasonic]

Larry - It's all about perspective. For me personally, I listen to SO many genres of music, that I am used to bands with bombastic production (IE - Blind Guardian, Rhapsody, etc), as well as those with raw production (IE - Misfits, etc).

My first thought if I heard you guys were going to record a disc in your own studio and released the CD itself would be, "That's awesome! That's exactly what I would do if the label wasn't going to give the $$ necessary to do it otherwise"

As I said, all about perspective. For me, this is what I personally have done in the past, as well as many bands I listen to.

Hell, even long running bands, such as TROUBLE and OMEN, when without label, went on to self release CDs to keep the name out there.

I do 100% agree with all the factors you indicated about what happened with Nevermore and that it could impact the release. I guess my only point is that it didn't HAVE to impact the songwriting. They let it get to them.