Touring Discussion (part 2)

[Mardoch]

This thread went from interesting and informative to damned depressing pretty quickly.

Can we go back to talking about touring packages and not pop?

Also, with regards to the response to my comment from what seems like eons ago...I know that Christian acts bring a whole circus with them. I still expected there to be at least a little bit of that audience there. About half of the audience seemed to be there for Death Angel.

And on the topic of random tour packages. I saw Iced Earth, Evergrey, and Children of Bodom at the HoB in New Orleans in '04 and I thought that was a random as hell tour package. It worked though, because while I was merely aware of CoB before that night, I left the show as a fan. They're pretty awesome live. Evergrey and Iced Earth were awesome, of course.

 

[General Zod]

(By the way, for someone who claims to be thick skinned and enjoys passionate debates, you sure got offended by that even though it's really not at all that offensive to begin with...)

I didn't say I was offended, I was merely amused by the irony of you starting a thought by stating you meant no offense, and concluding it by stating I was "seriously deluding myself."

By the way, in this context, I use "rock" to refer to a Kingdom in music taxonomy, where "metal" is a Phylum beneath "rock". I assume AS was using it the same way.

That's fair. However, pointing to a pair of acts from the 80s as evidence for the vitality of a genre, underscores the opposite point.

I disagree. Aquilera and Jay Z are the latest incarnations of Madonna and MC Hammer. In 20 years there will be new versions of the same thing.

With respect to the Madonna thing, you're probably right. There will likely always be this version of Pop music. Can Hip Hop sustain the level of popularity it's enjoyed? Perhaps. Time will tell.

 

[dcowboys311]

This thread went from interesting and informative to damned depressing pretty quickly.

Can we go back to talking about touring packages and not pop?

Also, with regards to the response to my comment from what seems like eons ago...I know that Christian acts bring a whole circus with them. I still expected there to be at least a little bit of that audience there. About half of the audience seemed to be there for Death Angel.

And on the topic of random tour packages. I saw Iced Earth, Evergrey, and Children of Bodom at the HoB in New Orleans in '04 and I thought that was a random as hell tour package. It worked though, because while I was merely aware of CoB before that night, I left the show as a fan. They're pretty awesome live. Evergrey and Iced Earth were awesome, of course.

There was a 700 post thread for talking about touring. Kinda missed the boat there.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I think a lot of the reason is due to the media. For instance, MTV and various of the metal magazines have always pushed the HEAVIER side of metal and so it's sort of been pushed down people's throats to the point where that's just the accepted brand of metal here. I don't understand it, considering that power or classic metal to me is catchier than death/metalcore/black metal but that's just how it is.

Beyond that I'm not so sure. Maybe part of it has to do with glam hurting sung metal's reputation. A lot of power metal, not so much prog has some similarities with the glam and hair metal movement, so it could be because that genre is such a dirty word, that people think when they hear power, it's glam on first listen. That's just speculation though. Another part of the reasoning is that in the 90s, metal took such a major hit with alternative coming in, that when it made a resurgance the market was consumed by nu, metalcore and some death/black metal where new metalheads accepted that as "more metal" compared to power and classic metal.

In terms of prog, is prog even that popular over in Europe? I don't honestly hear of a lot of big shows of prog bands outside of the major ones like Dream Theater, who also are popular here as well as there. With prog, it's such a niche market because it's not mainstream at all due to the lengthy songs and what some people think is musical wankery. Plus, the fact that most of it isn't exactly catchy.

Beyond these reasons though, I really don't know why prog/power metal isn't more popular than it is beyond my theories and we probably never will know exactly why, nor do I think it's ever going to change.

 

[dcowboys311]

Maybe media outlets realized that the masses don't want to hear about dragons and elves and fairies and unicorns and would rather hear about blood and gore.

I like power metal, I really do, but it's pretty obvious to see why it doesn't have the same size fanbase. The same people who dig horror movies, who are "goths" in school, etc can get into death metal because it's "cool" and "edgy." Not music about Lord of the Rings.

 

[nomisofsiman]

It seems when the power metal acts tour here it is just them and 4 different style of acts which usually dont go well along musiclly with the headliner. Like when Sonata had The Agonist, Edguy had a bunch of metalcorish bands on different tuors. Sure this may bring in a couple younger kids but we rarely see a power metal package tour. I wonder if there was something like3 or 4 quality power metal acts on a US tour if the draw would be slightly better than when they tour with 4 bands not in thier genre.

I think this definitely has something to do with it. I've been on a lot of those tours and the ones that are most successful are the ones like the Kamelot/Edguy and even Blind Guardian the other night (even though the openers aren't major bands) at least fit with them. If more power metal bands toured this way, I think they would find more success. However, I'm guessing finances has a lot to do with why this doesn't happen.

 

[nomisofsiman]

- Canada can be a good case-study to test any hypotheses. Again, it would be good to have some real numbers, but my feeling is that power metal bands tend to draw better in Canadian cities than US cities of a similar size. Any valid theory would have to explain this differential, so "bands just do better in their home base" can't be the sole explanation.

I'm sure they do. However, with Canada, there usually aren't nearly as many dates and the shows are more exclusive, so I'm guessing the Canadian fans (some) will travel more and so in turn, they're getting a larger demographic than the US shows due to having less shows. Usually I see most of these bands get 4-6 (at best) dates in Canada, while in the US it can be 15-20+.

 

[nomisofsiman]

That lineup would draw less than Edguy with 2 crappy metalcore openers. Just being honest.

No it wouldn't. Most of these shows with power metal headliners and metalcore openers, the fans are not into it at all from what I've seen. I'm not saying the tour mentioned would be an instant sellout or anything, but it definitely would outdraw the tour with two metalcore bands.

 

[AngraRULES]

This thread went from interesting and informative to damned depressing pretty quickly.

This thread became a hell of an interesting thread, actually. Nothing of what's being discussed is new here. Nothing to get depressed about, since people who're into the scene we are have been living this reality for years now.

Can we go back to talking about touring packages and not pop?

As Brian said, we already did that. Does talking about pop scare you that much?

And on the topic of random tour packages. I saw Iced Earth, Evergrey, and Children of Bodom at the HoB in New Orleans in '04 and I thought that was a random as hell tour package. It worked though, because while I was merely aware of CoB before that night, I left the show as a fan. They're pretty awesome live. Evergrey and Iced Earth were awesome, of course.

There was nothing random about that tour dude. They were all bands that fell within the same style (all underground metal bands at the time, right?) and booked a killer package together. If you ask me, random is when you fit a band like (and I am simply using these bands as an example) Gamma Ray to tour with Immortal, or Kataklysm opening for Porcupine Tree. Evergrey, CoB and Iced Earth have a lot in common.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I don't believe Americans dislike this type of music. The last time Americans were exposed to this music in any sort of significant way, was 20 years ago. I think there's simply a lack of exposure to this kind of music. However, I'm not sure that lack of exposure is based on anything other than the preconceived notions of a few people, in prominent positions, regarding what will sell. Let's face it, it's not like every so often one of the major labels takes a chance on a European Power Metal band, gives them a massive push here in the states, and watches helplessly as they fail miserably. How do we know what teenagers will find cheesy? They certainly flocked to DragonForce in massive numbers, and that band was as cheesy as Manowar after a weekend long Velveeta bender.

I think bands (and genres) who are outside the current norm, whatever that current norm may be, have to force themselves in through the door. It's important to recognize, that at any given time, the record companies have a great deal of money invested in the status quo. Look at it this way... if tomorrow Hip Hop was over, in much the same way Metal was over in the early 90s, record companies would lose all the money they're contractually obligated to pay out for future records, that wouldn't sell the way they had projected they would. Consequently, they don't want things to change... it threatens their future quarterly projections and calls into question shareholder value. So why sign an Angra or an Edguy? If they flop, you lose your money. If they break huge and the industry shifts, you lose the money you had projected from the future sales of the artists currently in your stable (who would no longer be in vogue).

A bit of anecdotal evidence... I took my nieces and nephews to see Iced Earth on The Glorious Burden tour (who were between 15 and 19). I'm not sure what could possibly be perceived as less cool, than a classic sounding Metal performing songs about the Civil War. However, they all loved the shows. Actually, they said it was the best show they had ever seen. I think there's an audience out there... there's just no interest among major labels to invest the appropriate resources to cultivate it.

As a side note, I think we'll see a revival in Rock and Metal. I say this for two reasons. One, things are cyclical. Two, things aren't great in the country. When people are angry or scare or frustrated, art tends to reflect that.

Excellent post, Zod. This is sort of what I was eluding to with the media part. You never hear about power metal bands in mags like Revolver for example. I think another thing is that due to the harshness of the industry at the moment, labels aren't taking any damn risks. And honestly, through the history of music, the bands or artists that usually break through offer something new and different and these usually have been due to labels taking a risk. It all has to do with exposure and power and classic as well as prog don't get exposure. I'm not really gonna talk about prog though, as I don't think that genre will ever be popular beyond maybe Dream Theater and a select few other bands.

And yes, I agree there will be a resurgence.

 

[AngraRULES]

No it wouldn't. Most of these shows with power metal headliners and metalcore openers, the fans are not into it at all from what I've seen. I'm not saying the tour mentioned would be an instant sellout or anything, but it definitely would outdraw the tour with two metalcore bands.

So, let's just for the sake of argument say that Edguy comes on tour with Blackguard (LOL) and Threat Signal. The same Edguy comes also on tour with Pagans Mind and Brainstorm. While I can see your point (about the fans not being really into it sometimes), I still think Jason is right in the sense that the latter tour would be outsold. Then again, I could be wrong.

 

[dcowboys311]

I agree with Jason, too. Do people really care about Brainstorm? This is literally the only message board where I ever seen them mentioned.

 

[nomisofsiman]

This is your evidence that Rock is alive and well? For starters, I'd qualify neither as "Rock". However, even if we agree to put them under the broader umbrella of "Rock", you're evidence for Rock's vibrant existence is a couple of bands that have been around since the 80s?

Plus, while these bands have good first weeks, the metal bands that sell well in the first week or so, die off EXTREMELY quickly after that with a couple exceptions such as Disturbed, Avenged Sevenfold, etc.

 

[Diabolik]

So, let's just for the sake of argument say that Edguy comes on tour with Blackguard (LOL) and Threat Signal. The same Edguy comes also on tour with Pagans Mind and Brainstorm. While I can see your point (about the fans not being really into it sometimes), I still think Jason is right in the sense that the latter tour would be outsold. Then again, I could be wrong.

I do think that with a band like Brainstorm and Pagan's Mind on a tour with Edguy would definetly bring back people who wont bother seeing Edguy live anymore to see them again. The main problem with lets say Eduy is that with almost all the tours they have done in the states it has almost been the same set list each time with a few differences. This is why I blew off a couple of thier shows. I saw them on thier last tour just because it was really close to my place and it ended up being the best time I saw them. Even though say some of the metalcore bands would draw better than a PM and a Brainstorm could be wrong. With a nice billing and enough advertising....you may get a few more people in. Again though in the smaller markets it would be a tougher sell.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Maybe media outlets realized that the masses don't want to hear about dragons and elves and fairies and unicorns and would rather hear about blood and gore.

I like power metal, I really do, but it's pretty obvious to see why it doesn't have the same size fanbase. The same people who dig horror movies, who are "goths" in school, etc can get into death metal because it's "cool" and "edgy." Not music about Lord of the Rings.

While yes, there are bands that write about those fantasy things, I find this to be a very overrated stereotype. Not all power metal bands are that blatant with the fantasy thing. Hell, bands like Priest, Maiden, Black Sabbath (with Dio) wrote about some stuff like that too that wasn't exactly horrorish themes. This is what I find interesting. You have bands like Priest and Maiden who were popular and still are when they tour, yet power metal and some traditional are picking up where they left off but are being completely ignored. I'm still standing by that a lot of the reason is due to a lack of exposure to new fans. As has been mentioned by others in this thread, I think a lot of people...not a HUGE amount but a good amount would be power metal fans if they actually knew about it. Same thing goes with Dream Theater fans who have no clue about the European prog scene.

You gotta realize not everyone is like us who go on boards, browse various metal sites looking for new bands. They buy the stuff they read in mags or on the radio and that's it. Mainstream America doesn't like to search for music, they like it to be shoved into their faces and due to these bands being virtually impossible to even find in a Best Buy means there's probably a number of possible future power metal or prog fans that will never be due to not being exposed to it.

 

[nomisofsiman]

So, let's just for the sake of argument say that Edguy comes on tour with Blackguard (LOL) and Threat Signal. The same Edguy comes also on tour with Pagans Mind and Brainstorm. While I can see your point (about the fans not being really into it sometimes), I still think Jason is right in the sense that the latter tour would be outsold. Then again, I could be wrong.

I think it probably would be a tossup. However, in terms of those particular bands, yeah it could go the other way. Brainstorm and Pagan's Mind (while I love both) are not the types of bands Edguy should tour with in hopes to get a bigger draw. Bands like Primal Fear I think would help though.

What I think would be better is for these bigger power metal bands to do co-headline sets like the Edguy/Kamelot tour years back. That did well, so bands like Edguy, Kamelot, Symphony X, Sonata Arctica, Helloween, Gamma Ray, Epica, Nightwish and possibly Rhapsody of Fire, Sabaton and Primal Fear touring together would help.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I do think that with a band like Brainstorm and Pagan's Mind on a tour with Edguy would definetly bring back people who wont bother seeing Edguy live anymore to see them again. The main problem with lets say Eduy is that with almost all the tours they have done in the states it has almost been the same set list each time with a few differences. This is why I blew off a couple of thier shows. I saw them on thier last tour just because it was really close to my place and it ended up being the best time I saw them. Even though say some of the metalcore bands would draw better than a PM and a Brainstorm could be wrong. With a nice billing and enough advertising....you may get a few more people in. Again though in the smaller markets it would be a tougher sell.

Definitely true. I think Edguy, while we've had them as an example, is indeed a bad example because they aren't really power metal anymore.

 

[dcowboys311]

While yes, there are bands that write about those fantasy things, I find this to be a very overrated stereotype. Not all power metal bands are that blatant with the fantasy thing. Hell, bands like Priest, Maiden, Black Sabbath (with Dio) wrote about some stuff like that too that wasn't exactly horrorish themes. This is what I find interesting. You have bands like Priest and Maiden who were popular and still are when they tour, yet power metal and some traditional are picking up where they left off but are being completely ignored. I'm still standing by that a lot of the reason is due to a lack of exposure to new fans. As has been mentioned by others in this thread, I think a lot of people...not a HUGE amount but a good amount would be power metal fans if they actually knew about it. Same thing goes with Dream Theater fans who have no clue about the European prog scene.

You gotta realize not everyone is like us who go on boards, browse various metal sites looking for new bands. They buy the stuff they read in mags or on the radio and that's it. Mainstream America doesn't like to search for music, they like it to be shoved into their faces and due to these bands being virtually impossible to even find in a Best Buy means there's probably a number of possible future power metal or prog fans that will never be due to not being exposed to it.

Yet those same people who are not interested enough in music to seek it out in other sources are interested in debunking stereotypes for styles that they are unfamiliar with or simply don't care about?

Not all death metal is about guts either. But it's the stereotype. It happens.

Rap is about bitches and hos. Indie rock is about girls. Black metal is about Satan. Power metal is about flowers.

Nobody cares if not every band sings about those subjects. It's the stereotype and it's what's presented to the media. Why is a magazine or a TV network going to spend time pushing something that they know the average reader/watcher will instantly think is "gay?"

Also, another reason the extreme bands get a bigger push is because there are more big labels centered around those styles. Relapse. Earache. Nuclear Blast. Century Media. While Nuclear and Century have some power metal bands, by and large they are extreme labels. And guess who gives MTV the money to play their videos? Who has the resources to send out album after album for review? The big guys. The 'extreme' labels.

MTV and Decibel aren't trying to dictate the market. They're trying to dictate their pocketbooks. Can't blame them, but you can't say that they're responsible.

I don't buy the lack of exposure bit at all. Powerviolence suffers from 'lack of exposure.' Noise suffers from 'lack of exposure.' Ambient suffers from 'lack of exposure.'

Would they become instant media darlings if the right labels picked them up? No. They aren't accessible forms of music. It has nothing to do with America vs Europe, etc. They just aren't accessible.

Power metal is the same way. While it might be simple to us, to the average music listener, the music is complex. Too fast. Not enough dynamics. The songs sound the same. It's never going to be a fighting force in the music world.

 

[AngraRULES]

I think it probably would be a tossup. However, in terms of those particular bands, yeah it could go the other way. Brainstorm and Pagan's Mind (while I love both) are not the types of bands Edguy should tour with in hopes to get a bigger draw. Bands like Primal Fear I think would help though.

I wouldn't know, simply because I haven't been to a Primal Fear gig in the US aside from ProgPower. How much did they draw in their last tour? Honestly though, Simon, do you think Edguy would draw more fans if they toured with Primal Fear than, say, if they did it alone? I don't know man, Edguy may have gone in a different direction but in essence, they're still in the Power Metal scene. I can't see the audience being much different for both bands. I don't think PF would really bring more people to an Edguy gig than Edguy alone.

What I think would be better is for these bigger power metal bands to do co-headline sets like the Edguy/Kamelot tour years back. That did well, so bands like Edguy, Kamelot, Symphony X, Sonata Arctica, Helloween, Gamma Ray, Epica, Nightwish and possibly Rhapsody of Fire, Sabaton and Primal Fear touring together would help.

First of all, you are missing a key band there in the big names of the style. Need I say who?

Again, it's tough to tell. I think a tour like Nevermore-SX-Soilwork (which is still a fucking brilliant package) would do much better than any combination of the ones you mentioned. There's more of a cross-over appeal I think for this particular package coming up in April. I honestly think in this tour, all bands will make new fans. Whenever Sonata Arctica tours with Kamelot, I will bet that at least 85% of the crowd already knows both bands.

 

[AngraRULES]

I don't buy the lack of exposure bit at all. Powerviolence suffers from 'lack of exposure.' Noise suffers from 'lack of exposure.' Ambient suffers from 'lack of exposure.'

Would they become instant media darlings if the right labels picked them up? No. They aren't accessible forms of music. It has nothing to do with America vs Europe, etc. They just aren't accessible.

Power metal is the same way. While it might be simple to us, to the average music listener, the music is complex. Too fast. Not enough dynamics. The songs sound the same. It's never going to be a fighting force in the music world.

I think this sums it up pretty well.