Touring Discussion (part 2)

[dcowboys311]

I really doubt Primal Fear would help out Edguy's touring at all. Primal Fear is not a big draw in this country at all.

There have been power metal/power metal/power metal packages and there have been power metal/death metal/metalcore packages. Which one do you still see around more often? I wonder why?
Maybe it works.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Yet those same people who are not interested enough in music to seek it out in other sources are interested in debunking stereotypes for styles that they are unfamiliar with or simply don't care about?

Not all death metal is about guts either. But it's the stereotype. It happens.

Rap is about bitches and hos. Indie rock is about girls. Black metal is about Satan. Power metal is about flowers.

Nobody cares if not every band sings about those subjects. It's the stereotype and it's what's presented to the media. Why is a magazine or a TV network going to spend time pushing something that they know the average reader/watcher will instantly think is "gay?"

Also, another reason the extreme bands get a bigger push is because there are more big labels centered around those styles. Relapse. Earache. Nuclear Blast. Century Media. While Nuclear and Century have some power metal bands, by and large they are extreme labels. And guess who gives MTV the money to play their videos? Who has the resources to send out album after album for review? The big guys. The 'extreme' labels.

MTV and Decibel aren't trying to dictate the market. They're trying to dictate their pocketbooks. Can't blame them, but you can't say that they're responsible.

I don't buy the lack of exposure bit at all. Powerviolence suffers from 'lack of exposure.' Noise suffers from 'lack of exposure.' Ambient suffers from 'lack of exposure.'

Would they become instant media darlings if the right labels picked them up? No. They aren't accessible forms of music. It has nothing to do with America vs Europe, etc. They just aren't accessible.

Power metal is the same way. While it might be simple to us, to the average music listener, the music is complex. Too fast. Not enough dynamics. The songs sound the same. It's never going to be a fighting force in the music world.

Yes, I know not all death metal is about blood and guts. I was using what you said in your response and truthfully, a lot of it is about darker and more graphic subjects which is something that the kids enjoy. A lot why I think that is is due to the media pushing it down our throats, same goes with Ozzfest and Mayhem. In no way am I saying that they are the sole culprit though, but they do add to it.

I think what it ultimately comes down to though is power metal being lighter in mood rather than the death/black/thrash. Not with all metal fans, but a lot of them want their metal to be heavy and controversial as a way of rebellion. And like Jason said, the image does have a lot to do with it. The average young metalhead would rather listen to bands who are tattooed up, pierced up the giggy and in band photos look "scary" or "badass" than the power metal bands that usually look like just a group of guys with long hair who happen to play metal and worse, the power metal bands like Manowar who dress the cheese.

I agree with what you say about the labels. They definitely play a huge part of why these bands aren't getting pushes, and yeah, they sort of do own the genre at the moment. I'm not saying I don't understand their reasoning. It makes complete sense that these labels would go after the money instead of the risk of booking and signing power metal bands, but I still go by if more power metal bands were booked and signed, they'd be MORE popular...but not the hugest thing ever. That's not what I was saying at all. No power metal band is ever going to become instant media darlings.

Overall though, I think there is a valid argument about US vs Europe. The US in general, when we're talking all art-related industries such as music, film, etc. the most popular acts or movies tend to be American. There are exceptions of course, but labels or in the case of film, studios like to push Americans. In Europe, there seems to be a much bigger mix of bands, movies, etc. from an array of countries throughout the world and ultimately, they seem more open-minded, which may be why power metal bands have more popularity over there.

At the end of the day though, lack of exposure does hurt the genre. Again, I'm not saying power metal would ever be huge but it would be more successful with a little more exposure, much like other genres would be more popular with exposure. However, it will never happen.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I wouldn't know, simply because I haven't been to a Primal Fear gig in the US aside from ProgPower. How much did they draw in their last tour? Honestly though, Simon, do you think Edguy would draw more fans if they toured with Primal Fear than, say, if they did it alone? I don't know man, Edguy may have gone in a different direction but in essence, they're still in the Power Metal scene. I can't see the audience being much different for both bands. I don't think PF would really bring more people to an Edguy gig than Edguy alone.



First of all, you are missing a key band there in the big names of the style. Need I say who?

Again, it's tough to tell. I think a tour like Nevermore-SX-Soilwork (which is still a fucking brilliant package) would do much better than any combination of the ones you mentioned. There's more of a cross-over appeal I think for this particular package coming up in April. I honestly think in this tour, all bands will make new fans. Whenever Sonata Arctica tours with Kamelot, I will bet that at least 85% of the crowd already knows both bands.

Primal Fear definitely isn't a big band here. I do think they could become one of the bigger power metal bands here though if they were to tour with the power metal bands above them. First time out, sure this type of tour probably wouldn't do better than touring with metalcore, but after that initial run or two I think you would see better attendance. In my main point though, I wasn't meaning Primal Fear as much as the other bands I mentioned.

To your second point, I completely agree. That tour definitely was a good booking decision, despite my extreme dislike of Soilwork. Crossover appeal is always a good thing. The metalcore bands though with the power metal bands isn't really crossover, it's touring apples with oranges. Regardless yeah, all these bands I'm guessing will obtain new fans due to that tour.

When package such as Kamelot and Sonata Arctica tours, yeah I'm sure a lot of the fans know of both. However, I'd bet it would bring more people in that wouldn't go for just one of the bands. Then if they put on a band like Primal Fear or other low tier power metal band like Sabaton, they may give them new fans, which will lead to stronger future tours.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I really doubt Primal Fear would help out Edguy's touring at all. Primal Fear is not a big draw in this country at all.

There have been power metal/power metal/power metal packages and there have been power metal/death metal/metalcore packages. Which one do you still see around more often? I wonder why?
Maybe it works.

As I said to Angra, Primal Fear was a bad example, and it would help Primal Fear more than it would the tour. However, I think it would help build Primal Fear to where they possibly could become a higher tier power metal band. It would take time though, so it makes sense why that hasn't happened.

Definitely there are more power/death/metalcore packages. I don't know if it's necessarily more successful (as in more people though). Like I said, it's probably a tossup between metalcore or a low tiered power metal band. I just know I've been to tons of these tours and there just doesn't seem like many are enjoying those openers. I think it's one of those things where most, not all of these metalcore openers, have become just another band, instead of it actually helping the tour. I'm guessing why this actually is more common is more due to money though. The metalcore packages probably are much cheaper due to a lot of them being from either the US or Canada.

 

[skyrefuge]

What I think would be better is for these bigger power metal bands to do co-headline sets like the Edguy/Kamelot tour years back. That did well, so bands like Edguy, Kamelot, Symphony X, Sonata Arctica, Helloween, Gamma Ray, Epica, Nightwish and possibly Rhapsody of Fire, Sabaton and Primal Fear touring together would help.

Would help what? You seem to be measuring the success of a tour package by the number of people that it draws. Headlining bands bands surely use a different metric: money. Combining big name bands reduces the take for each band, especially when their fanbase is nearly identical. If maximizing the number of people was the primary concern and money didn't matter, they'd just tell the promoter to charge nothing for tickets!

Also, my experience at concerts tells me that people go to concerts for the headliners. If a band they like is headlining, they'll go. Other bands are essentially irrelevant to their decisions. Yes, there are a few music nerd weirdos like me or Bob or yourself who will occasionally be swayed one way or another by the entire lineup, and thus you guys think everyone behaves like us, but I really doubt that. All those people who knew and sang all the words to frickin' "Sacred Worlds" weren't there because they sorta like Blind Guardian and figured they'd hit up a decent metal show. They were there because they love Blind Guardian. A couple guys next to me were talking about how this was the first metal show they'd been to since the last Blind Guardian show. As discussed earlier in this thread, the majority of people who go to a particular show are not like us. They don't care much about other bands, they care about *their* band, and don't really go out of their way to care about other bands.

I probably haven't paid as much attention to power metal tours in the last couple years as I should have, but what's this list of Euro power metal + American metalcore/death metal tours? You guys make it sound like it's the standard, but I don't think I've ever seen one. Oh, ok, Death / Hammerfall, but that was 12 years ago!

Ok, now on to the psychoanalysis of music fans (and this applies to all the psychoanalysts out there!) I have no idea why I like the music I like, and you have no idea why you like the music you like, so how can you have the audacity to explain why entire populations of people like the music they like? And heck, if you're gonna do it anyway, at least take a moment to explain what it is about the cultural spirit or moral fiber of Americans that makes them inherently more interested in different subgenres of metal than their European counterparts. The two party political system? The echoes of Manifest Destiny? The effects of being able to drink soda out of a glass larger than 5 oz?

Neil

 

[Element_man]

I ain't exactly the PC police or anything, but seriously??????

Yup. I live in a very "extreme metal" town so I hear that particular term used quite often in regards to melodic metal styles. I mean to use the word "lame", but some things just rub off on a person it seems. Looking at my earlier post, it looks pretty juvenile. I don't mean any offense.

I am curious as to who these bands you mention are (these ones that are "so gay.") Not gonna lie to you, I will have to compare their sound to the way your bands sounds, since I find it rather ironic that you're criticizing a genre that your band is a part of (or trying to become a part of anyway). It borderlines hypocrisy the way you made it sound like.

I'm merely pointing out observations I've found based on my experiences with playing this music and how my tastes have slowly changed. I never said I dislike the genre, (otherwise I wouldn't be playing it) but there are a handful of bands that I was really into in high school, and now those bands just make me laugh (or wince) at how absurdly silly, happy or sometimes pompous they sound. Freedom call, Dragonforce (I was really into their first two disks) the first two Heavenly albums and Timeless Miracle come to mind right now, I don't enjoy listening to those bands anymore. Then there are a pile of other bands that I still love, (Rhapsody, Falconer, Aquaria, Sonata, lots of Stratovarius) but I can see why others would find them cheesy and dumb, and I mostly listen for nostalgia purposes lately. The power metal I like these days is Hibria, Cimson Glory, Omen, Stormwarrior, and then some power/prog like Myrath, Seventh Wonder, Symphony X, DGM and such.
As far as my band goes, I think we have more in common with bands like Kamelot, Blind Guardian, Fates Warning and old Nightwish than any of the bands I listed above, and these groups are all staples of my current listening diet. I'm through explaining myself, compare away if you feel so inclined.

 

[General Zod]

Nobody cares if not every band sings about those subjects. It's the stereotype and it's what's presented to the media.

The other thing to consider, when we talk about Power Metal lacking in popularity because of its subject matter, is what percentage of people even pay attention and/or care about the lyrics?

 

[nomisofsiman]

Would help what? You seem to be measuring the success of a tour package by the number of people that it draws. Headlining bands bands surely use a different metric: money. Combining big name bands reduces the take for each band, especially when their fanbase is nearly identical. If maximizing the number of people was the primary concern and money didn't matter, they'd just tell the promoter to charge nothing for tickets!

Also, my experience at concerts tells me that people go to concerts for the headliners. If a band they like is headlining, they'll go. Other bands are essentially irrelevant to their decisions. Yes, there are a few music nerd weirdos like me or Bob or yourself who will occasionally be swayed one way or another by the entire lineup, and thus you guys think everyone behaves like us, but I really doubt that. All those people who knew and sang all the words to frickin' "Sacred Worlds" weren't there because they sorta like Blind Guardian and figured they'd hit up a decent metal show. They were there because they love Blind Guardian. A couple guys next to me were talking about how this was the first metal show they'd been to since the last Blind Guardian show. As discussed earlier in this thread, the majority of people who go to a particular show are not like us. They don't care much about other bands, they care about *their* band, and don't really go out of their way to care about other bands.

I probably haven't paid as much attention to power metal tours in the last couple years as I should have, but what's this list of Euro power metal + American metalcore/death metal tours? You guys make it sound like it's the standard, but I don't think I've ever seen one. Oh, ok, Death / Hammerfall, but that was 12 years ago!

I was never talking about the bottom line money a band would make. Of course, if there were tours of multiple power metal bands, the moolah would be split more. In terms of gaining more interest and increasing current or potential tours in terms of attendance I think it would help.

For the most part yes, people do go for headliners. However, I think in power metal due to how underground it is, most people that like a Blind Guardian for example most likely know the other bands I mentioned that would help tour. Mostly though, it does help in terms of the people on the fence. As far as the metalcore openers, I consider Blackguard, Mutiny Within, etc. who have toured with the likes of Sonata Arctica, Epica, Nevermore, etc.

 

[TychoCelchu]

The other thing to consider, when we talk about Power Metal lacking in popularity because of its subject matter, is what percentage of people even pay attention and/or care about the lyrics?

What I've observed is that people who are more obsessive about music tend to care less about lyrics and more about music. People who are casual consumers of music (the "mainstream" audience) tend to fixate on lyrics first.

 

[AngraRULES]

Primal Fear definitely isn't a big band here.

In my main point though, I wasn't meaning Primal Fear as much as the other bands I mentioned.

Then why did you use them as an example?

 

[nomisofsiman]

The other thing to consider, when we talk about Power Metal lacking in popularity because of its subject matter, is what percentage of people even pay attention and/or care about the lyrics?

True.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Then why did you use them as an example?

I mostly was using them as a band that could be attached to a tour, gain a lot of new fans on that tour and then on later tours could start to gain more momentum in terms of getting people out to shows. They to me seem like a band that should be more popular but aren't, especially since they seem to be heavier than a lot of the other power metal bands.

 

[AngraRULES]

Definitely there are more power/death/metalcore packages. I don't know if it's necessarily more successful (as in more people though).

It is more successful. It's a formula that works. If it didn't, booking agents, promoters and labels wouldn't insist on these packages as much as they do.

I'm guessing why this actually is more common is more due to money though. The metalcore packages probably are much cheaper due to a lot of them being from either the US or Canada.

I think you may be right in the sense that it makes sense to use a band from around here. Makes it a hell of a lot cheaper. It's no wonder Glenn uses the same approach - finding quality bands that wouldn't need the expenses of Visas for 5, 6 people...

 

[nomisofsiman]

It is more successful. It's a formula that works. If it didn't, booking agents, promoters and labels wouldn't insist on these packages as much as they do.

I don't know. Like I said, yeah I understand why financially they do it, but I don't know if it is more successful. I know the Edguy/Kamelot show was one of the most well attended power metal shows I've been to for example. Beyond that I haven't been to a lot of packaged power metal shows, but I would assume that the Helloween/Gamma Ray show got a better attendance opposed to either band headlining if they had Mutiny Within, Blackguard, etc. That's more what I'm trying to get at.

 

[AngraRULES]

I'm merely pointing out observations I've found based on my experiences with playing this music and how my tastes have slowly changed. I never said I dislike the genre, (otherwise I wouldn't be playing it) but there are a handful of bands that I was really into in high school, and now those bands just make me laugh (or wince) at how absurdly silly, happy or sometimes pompous they sound.

Gotcha. But when you just make a general statement about how the melodic power metal you used to listen to is gay, and that you can't believe you liked the stuff, it comes across as someone spitting on the plate they just ate out of - borderline hypocritical as I said, simply because you are trying to be part of the same scene you're calling gay. Maybe you should have used a better choice of words. That way you wouldn't have come across as if you were criticizing/bashing the style.

 

[AngraRULES]

I don't know. Like I said, yeah I understand why financially they do it, but I don't know if it is more successful. I know the Edguy/Kamelot show was one of the most well attended power metal shows I've been to for example. Beyond that I haven't been to a lot of packaged power metal shows, but I would assume that the Helloween/Gamma Ray show got a better attendance opposed to either band headlining if they had Mutiny Within, Blackguard, etc. That's more what I'm trying to get at.

Just so we're clear, though, how exactly do you measure success on a tour? The number of attendance or your perception of how much the crowd is into it? I just want to be able to understand where you're getting at.

 

[dcowboys311]

I don't know. Like I said, yeah I understand why financially they do it, but I don't know if it is more successful. I know the Edguy/Kamelot show was one of the most well attended power metal shows I've been to for example. Beyond that I haven't been to a lot of packaged power metal shows, but I would assume that the Helloween/Gamma Ray show got a better attendance opposed to either band headlining if they had Mutiny Within, Blackguard, etc. That's more what I'm trying to get at.

Well no shit.
Is it really surprising to you that a show with TWO headlining bands get a bigger draw than a show with ONE? It's not rocket science.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

...but I would assume that the Helloween/Gamma Ray show got a better attendance opposed to either band headlining if they had Mutiny Within, Blackguard, etc. That's more what I'm trying to get at.

Right, but like Neil said earlier on, that show just doesn't make sense FINANCIALLY for either band, when they each could have toured on their own and perhaps not drawn as many people, but would have gotten 100% of the income rather than now having to split it 50/50 (or 60/40..). The only reason they would do this was because both bands needed a "boost" over here to kickstart their careers once more. It's something that can be done once, and the bands are willing to take that "pay-cut" that one time because they know what it will lead to for their NEXT tours.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Just so we're clear, though, how exactly do you measure success on a tour? The number of attendance or your perception of how much the crowd is into it? I just want to be able to understand where you're getting at.

Number of people in attendance.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Right, but like Neil said earlier on, that show just doesn't make sense FINANCIALLY for either band, when they each could have toured on their own and perhaps not drawn as many people, but would have gotten 100% of the income rather than now having to split it 50/50 (or 60/40..). The only reason they would do this was because both bands needed a "boost" over here to kickstart their careers once more. It's something that can be done once, and the bands are willing to take that "pay-cut" that one time because they know what it will lead to for their NEXT tours.

And I completely understand that. But earlier in the thread it seemed like people were complaining about low turnouts, so this would be a way to increase attendance. I never was talking about it being more financially successful per band.