A couple MJR observations for guitarists

If you had a legitimate argument to try and back your claim, that would have done just fine as well, but since you don't, that will do just fine:)


Schenk...what about the OCD didn't you like? I had decent results using it with single coils on a Blues Jr., but I can't say I was really sold on it either. I seem to come back to the TS9 and/or BB preamp no matter what else I try.

I refuse to buy a BB preamp because I have no music store anywhere near me to try it out. I never was never a huge fan of the TS9...maybe I should revisit it. My TC Electronic Vintage Tube Primer has a TS808 clone on one side...I never use it...I just use the clean boost side.

As far as the OCD goes...I tried it with a Fender tube amp(can't remember which model) on the clean channel only and it sounded great. I used a guitar with Duncans similar to mine. I really liked it. At home with my guitar and amp, I'm not getting the same tone...I also don't feel it's as dynamically responsive as they advertise. It's one of those things...just not my cup of tea. I think I'd really like the BB, but without actually being able to play one, I'm not dropping close to 200 bucks. I'm going to give the OCD one more try today and make my decision.
 
Yeah, you really have to try new gear with your _exact_ setup if you can. Not always easy if you chain a bunch of stuff, but if you can find the same amp and bring in your axe...
 
Yeah, you really have to try new gear with your _exact_ setup if you can. Not always easy if you chain a bunch of stuff, but if you can find the same amp and bring in your axe...

Yeah...I'm disappointed 95% of the time. Thank God for eBay!

I actually have absolutely nothing to do today for once in my adult life...so i'm going to dedicate it to getting some tone out of that OCD...or it's back to the music store.
 
I think if you go to ebay for the BB preamp you'd be alright...you'd either like it or be able to turn it right back around without losing more than a couple bucks. I love mine to death...it's one of the most important parts of my sound. Another one I'd reccomend looking at is the Zendrive...I don't know what those are going for these days though. If I ever decide to get another drive pedal for whatever reason, that's definitely what I'm going for.
 
I think if you go to ebay for the BB preamp you'd be alright...you'd either like it or be able to turn it right back around without losing more than a couple bucks. I love mine to death...it's one of the most important parts of my sound. Another one I'd recommend looking at is the Zendrive...I don't know what those are going for these days though. If I ever decide to get another drive pedal for whatever reason, that's definitely what I'm going for.

If I were you, I'd look at the Jetter Gear Gain Stage Red over the Zendrive...another "Dumble in a box" pedal, but I'm really impressed with it. That and their Gain Stage Blue. There's some great clips to check out at this link. Everything I've read or heard takes the Red over the Zen.

http://www.jettergear.com/products/gainstageRed.cfm

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDjSIYI-cSE&feature=related[/ame]

Back to the OCD. Toyed with it quite a bit today...got some really cool sounds...but one overall complaint is that is way too bassy. Mine is the version 3...the version 4 is supposedly more even and more transparent. I may try a v4. Here's some detailed info if you're interested.

http://www.pedalarea.com/ocd.htm
 
Here's the deal. I have no issue whatsoever with people having different opinions about how something should be done, and expressing rational thoughts on why their argument is sound. It's good for people to debate, usually in the end, each side has a better perspective on what is right, even if they never admit it in the context of the debate.

What is absolutely, abhorrently, and unbelievably stupid is the opinion that 'there is no right way to do something, it's all just personal taste'. I am so sick of this sentence coming out of people, it is ridiculous and wrong!!

Take that sentiment to it's logical extension.

If there is NO right or wrong way to do something, you have to allow for every single possibility of approach as having equal merit. If there was no right or wrong way to play guitar, some people would be playing with their feet, other people would be playing with their teeth. That is NOT a facetious argument, that really is the logical extension of allowing complete subjectivity. That hippie 'I can do whatever I want' attitude is a great way to become very mediocre at everything you do.

I played with the guitar sitting on my outside leg for much of my guitar playing career, it was more comfortable for me. When I switched to between the legs, it was not comfortable for a while, but I knew it was the right thing to do, just like I knew when I finally stopped letting my thumb hook the top of the neck it was the right change to make, and when I stopped making every effort to avoid using my pinkie it was the right change to make, and when I learned to hold my wrist properly it was the right change to make - though none of those things felt at all comfortable when I first started doing them.

There are flat out good ways and bad ways of doing things. There does exist a point where 'personal preference' comes into play - but that is so far down the line where one way and another way are so close to equally good that it doesn't really matter as much as the variables of a person's personal comfort. For example. if you are tapping the high note on a sweep arpeggio and plan to sweep back down afterward, you should tap with your middle finger because you don't have time to make the pick switch. If you are tapping the first solo to Sins and Shadows you should use your index finger because of the importance of muting while you move your hand across 5 strings of the guitar (and you have to mute all 6 because of the legato notes on the low E). If you are tapping the beginning of Hot for Teacher, then you can let 'personal comfort' be a deciding factor, because it really doesn't matter either way - you have plenty of time to make the pick switch if you want to go index, you don't have any particularly challenging muting if you want to go middle.

A debate about which finger to tap with between index and middle is reasonable, because both have certain merits. Tapping with your pinky, would be WRONG, objectively stupid and incorrect - it's not my fault that is the case, it is the nature of the design of the instrument and the nature of the design of the pinkie finger - two things that exist in reality and as a result have REAL consequences. Because of the nature of the way a horn is made, you would have a hard time playing it by plucking - you have to blow into it, again, RIGHT vs WRONG based on the way things are in existence in reality.

Meedley, I'll address your earlier post because you write and think like a reasonable person:

You first off seem to be arguing my same point but acting as if you are taking the opposite stance. My whole point about holding the guitar between the legs as being better was about wrist posture at the upper frets. If you hold it on your outside leg, your arm hits your body as you approach the upper frets, and as a result you have to angle your wrist back. If you hold it between your legs, you can have the same wrist posture regardless of your position on the fretboard.

In terms of mentioning tappers who use middle vs index, Vai is an amazing tapper, but he is also running through 3 zillion pedals etc for a very saturated, compressed, gated, etc, sound. In other words, he has a lot more leeway in terms of muting needs when tapping than a player with a more honest tone (the lead tone on, say, Twilight, is pretty dry but those taps in Smoke and Mirrors are clean as can be). You are right that 'just because MJR does is' doesn't make it the right thing to do, and honestly I wouldn't have even said that if I did not expect to be catering to a large number of people with the 'there is no right or wrong way' attitude. I would prefer to leave my argument pro-index tapping as based entirely on the logic which I also presented regarding the accuracy of the finger and the superior position it leaves your hand in for muting.

Take your hand and hold it like you were going to tap. Then move your index finger independently of your other fingers away and towards the rest of your fingers. Now try it with your middle finger. The range available to the index finger is far wider for independent movement, the other fingers move around quite a bit when you try to move the middle finger far independently.

I completely agree that there is a slight speed advantage to the middle finger which makes it advantageous in certain situations, but I think then you really ought to agree that there is a slight muting advantage to using the index finger because of points I have already made. Not all scenarios may necessarily entail a level of difficulty where that slight gain comes into play, but then again there are not very many scenarios where the speed advantage of the middle finger actually comes into play. I've tapped the high notes on sweeps and successfully made the pick tuck and return to get the rest of the downward sweep - I just feel it is a bit less consistent and a little riskier (though that risk diminishes with practice).

Check out the first solo in Sins and Shadows and the first solo in Communion. My original inability to get those to sound as clean as I wanted due to muting issues is largely what lead me to try the index finger thing, and I found that I could get them to be far more clean than with the middle finger. I don't believe this to be a matter of personal comfort - I believe it is because when moving across large portions of the neck diameter, not having to move around the rest of your hand as much is majorly beneficial to proper muting. In terms of accuracy, this one MAY be a personal comfort thing, but I have also always found that when you do a quick tap like before the key change in the Damnation Game opening 'solo', the tap right before the sweep arpeggio down where you have to hit the same note twice very quickly sounds temporally so much more accurate with the index finger than with the middle.


In terms of those ppl who for some reason felt the need to contribute 'this thread is useless', go back to your Friday Five and the other threads that have nothing to do with music, or musicians who want to learn and share. If I can save one person from wasting 5 years of his guitar playing life holding the guitar on his outside leg only to eventually realize that there was a plateau this created where certain licks in the higher fret simply would never come out as cleanly as the other way, it was definitely worth the post. I wish someone had alerted me to that so I did not waste my time until I happened to notice it on the MJR video. Sorry I wasted your time posting about guitar tapping technique on a Symphony X message board, what ever was I thinking!
 
In response to the first part of your post (i'll get to the part addressed to me tomorrow...it's freakin' late:)):

I agree to an extent, but my view on it is that you can't argue with results. If someone could (obviously hypothetical and obviously an exaggeration just to fit the point I'm making) play guitar with their feet or teeth or whatever and get the same results as you, myself, MJR, or whoever then I'm not going to be the one to tell them it's wrong. Referring back to what I consider to be my criteria for good technique (produces good sound, doesn't cause injury, is efficient....in that order), I think that leaves a pretty broad spectrum of what works. Take Marty Friedman for example...looking at his right hand makes me cringe, no joke. That said, it's worked VERY well for him for a long time now and (to my knowledge) he hasn't suffered any sort of injury from it. Steve morse too...I really don't like the 3-fingered pick grip, but he always sounds great, isn't in any kind of pain because of it, and is generally pretty efficient (when he isn't, it's often for tonal/articulation purposes and I do think those should always come first).

I agree on the topic of sitting-position, that is clearly better for the hand. The tapping thing on the other hand...I've never had any trouble doing that line or similar ones with my middle finger and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The muting technique doesn't need to be different either way and if for some reason muting works better for you one way than the other, then you could let that dictate which finger you are using, but other than that, I don't see any reason for anything other than preference to have a vital bearing on that choice.
 
Wow...who would think that tapping could be such a controversial and time consuming discussion.

I think MJR's guitar tone is as processed as anyone's. I find his tone to be a bit more true and natural on Divine Wings and Twilight. I also think his guitar solos on those releases are his best...the rest of the stuff, meh...love the albums...definitely an MJR fan for his band, writing and dedication to the instrument, but his guitar solos...meh. I think he has the potential to do more.

Hey Meedles...any thoughts or comments on the Jetter Gear stuff? I'm off this week, so when I can, I'm going to be in search of a BB preamp...I'm making the calls today!
 
You first off seem to be arguing my same point but acting as if you are taking the opposite stance. My whole point about holding the guitar between the legs as being better was about wrist posture at the upper frets. If you hold it on your outside leg, your arm hits your body as you approach the upper frets, and as a result you have to angle your wrist back. If you hold it between your legs, you can have the same wrist posture regardless of your position on the fretboard.

My commentary on the sitting-position issue was in response to canto's comment...that's already been addressed and put to rest so I'll move on:)

In terms of mentioning tappers who use middle vs index, Vai is an amazing tapper, but he is also running through 3 zillion pedals etc for a very saturated, compressed, gated, etc, sound. In other words, he has a lot more leeway in terms of muting needs when tapping than a player with a more honest tone (the lead tone on, say, Twilight, is pretty dry but those taps in Smoke and Mirrors are clean as can be). You are right that 'just because MJR does is' doesn't make it the right thing to do, and honestly I wouldn't have even said that if I did not expect to be catering to a large number of people with the 'there is no right or wrong way' attitude. I would prefer to leave my argument pro-index tapping as based entirely on the logic which I also presented regarding the accuracy of the finger and the superior position it leaves your hand in for muting.

The only thing easier for him is to get sound out, but he's not exactly running a quiet rig so his muting needs are going to be right up there with MJR's. Nevertheless, this is the reason I mentioned Guthrie and Howe. Both (mostly Howe) use a hairband to mute at times, but neither play with very easy tones. With Guthrie especially, he's got to generate a lot of power and be very precise to be as clean and articulate as he is (which is more than MJR), and he's all about the middle/ring fingers...and he never seems to have any issues with muting (when he's not using the band). Guthrie definitely isn't using a shredder-friendly tone either...far more "honest" than any metal player you're going to hear. Accuracy is something that can be developed relatively easily and muting is a non-issue...it shouldn't be any different regardless of which finger you are using to tap unless you are for some reason doing ALL of the muting with your right hand, which I would argue is bad technique in itself.

Take your hand and hold it like you were going to tap. Then move your index finger independently of your other fingers away and towards the rest of your fingers. Now try it with your middle finger. The range available to the index finger is far wider for independent movement, the other fingers move around quite a bit when you try to move the middle finger far independently.

True for most people perhaps, but again, finger independence can be developed in the right hand (and most players should). I don't have any issues with finger idependence in my right hand (except when trying to move the pinky independently) so that's never been a factor for me.

I completely agree that there is a slight speed advantage to the middle finger which makes it advantageous in certain situations, but I think then you really ought to agree that there is a slight muting advantage to using the index finger because of points I have already made. Not all scenarios may necessarily entail a level of difficulty where that slight gain comes into play, but then again there are not very many scenarios where the speed advantage of the middle finger actually comes into play. I've tapped the high notes on sweeps and successfully made the pick tuck and return to get the rest of the downward sweep - I just feel it is a bit less consistent and a little riskier (though that risk diminishes with practice).

Again, the muting thing shouldn't be an issue...so sorry, but I don't agree:p. I do however(at least for my playing style) place a lot of value on using the middle finger, thus eliminating having to find something else to do with the pick for a tapping passage...but that's one of those things that is going to be a preference thing.

Check out the first solo in Sins and Shadows and the first solo in Communion. My original inability to get those to sound as clean as I wanted due to muting issues is largely what lead me to try the index finger thing, and I found that I could get them to be far more clean than with the middle finger. I don't believe this to be a matter of personal comfort - I believe it is because when moving across large portions of the neck diameter, not having to move around the rest of your hand as much is majorly beneficial to proper muting. In terms of accuracy, this one MAY be a personal comfort thing, but I have also always found that when you do a quick tap like before the key change in the Damnation Game opening 'solo', the tap right before the sweep arpeggio down where you have to hit the same note twice very quickly sounds temporally so much more accurate with the index finger than with the middle.

I'm not familar enough with the Communion and Damnation Game solos you referenced there to weigh in on either...but for the Sins and Shadows solo, again, I don't find muting while using the middle finger to be an issue at all. That is definitely one where tucking the pick away wouldn't be as much of an issue though because it's more of a "ok guys, this here is a tapping section, check it out" type line than something that is thrown seamlessly within a solo (in terms of technique I mean...I'm not saying it's stylistically out of place) and you have plenty of time at the end of it to get back into picking position for the rest of the solo, so I don't think I could argue strongly for either technique in that case. You do what you're comfortable with there and I'll do what I'm comfortable with and call it a day:)

In terms of those ppl who for some reason felt the need to contribute 'this thread is useless', go back to your Friday Five and the other threads that have nothing to do with music, or musicians who want to learn and share. If I can save one person from wasting 5 years of his guitar playing life holding the guitar on his outside leg only to eventually realize that there was a plateau this created where certain licks in the higher fret simply would never come out as cleanly as the other way, it was definitely worth the post. I wish someone had alerted me to that so I did not waste my time until I happened to notice it on the MJR video. Sorry I wasted your time posting about guitar tapping technique on a Symphony X message board, what ever was I thinking!

As far as I'm concerned, topics such as these are certainly valid for discussion. I do believe that in the end, it comes down people doing what works for them, but discussing different approaches and why certain things work, advantages/disadvantages, etc. is always a good thing, so long as the big picture (the music itself) isn't lost.
 
Wow...who would think that tapping could be such a controversial and time consuming discussion.

I think MJR's guitar tone is as processed as anyone's. I find his tone to be a bit more true and natural on Divine Wings and Twilight. I also think his guitar solos on those releases are his best...the rest of the stuff, meh...love the albums...definitely an MJR fan for his band, writing and dedication to the instrument, but his guitar solos...meh. I think he has the potential to do more.

Hey Meedles...any thoughts or comments on the Jetter Gear stuff? I'm off this week, so when I can, I'm going to be in search of a BB preamp...I'm making the calls today!


I'm going to do more research on the Jetter stuff. I didn't like much of what I heard in the video you posted (though I did prefer the blue one between the two), but I think the settings they are using could have a large hand in that.
 
Meedles...exchanged the OCD v3 for a v4...took it home, played it for a bit...it's already on eBay if anyone is interested. Definitely not my style. Damn!

I'm of the opinion that clips posted on the net are worthless for finding out what works and what doesn't. You have to (as you just did) give them a test drive.
 
I'm going to do more research on the Jetter stuff. I didn't like much of what I heard in the video you posted (though I did prefer the blue one between the two), but I think the settings they are using could have a large hand in that.

The clips on the actual Jetter Gear site are better...there's audio and video...worth checking out! Check out the Harmony Central reviews too...the "red" was also reviewed in Guitar Player.
 
definitely an MJR fan for his band, writing and dedication to the instrument, but his guitar solos...meh. I think he has the potential to do more.

Although I am a HUGE Symphony X fan (I honestly think no other band can even compare), I agree with you. Most of MJR's solos don't do much for me, particularly in the "feeling" department. There's a few that I like (Communion, Accolade II), but most just seem like he's trying to work his crazy tapping stuff in the solo for no reason other than it being there.
 
Although I am a HUGE Symphony X fan (I honestly think no other band can even compare), I agree with you. Most of MJR's solos don't do much for me, particularly in the "feeling" department. There's a few that I like (Communion, Accolade II), but most just seem like he's trying to work his crazy tapping stuff in the solo for no reason other than it being there.

Oh shit! Anything thats not the pentatonic (major or minor) played at 80bpm or slower is emotionless! :erk:
Wait, I think the Symphony X forums has already had this debate lol.
 
I like his solos, I just think maybe he has done alot of them. One old and most likely considered substandard guitarist today has been quoted for saying something along the lines of not taking all your tricks out of the bag at once. Many guitar players if not all seem to become redundant after they've released enough material. I know the subject was feel or expression but I find musical cohesion in Romeos solos, meaning they make sense to me in expressing their point or mood looking to be expressed within the song.

As for proper way to play while sitting, I've played everyway and Im not sure between the legs or standard makes any difference for the highly skilled. At this moment Paco Delucia comes to mind, he seems to stand up well against the hord of players while playing in the conventional position. Then I found a recent video of Larry Coryell with some amount of weight gain playing impressively with his guitar tilted back across his belly... lol At the end if the day I think it boils down to natural talent and gobs of practice