A musicological question for music geeks/experts.
- Thread starter fainéant
- Start date
Don Corleone
Emre
ControlledChaos
Unbleeding
fainéant:
I think I should say this: perhaps Opeth does not modulate from key to key. They simply use chord progressions to get there. Does that make sense? (insert word "intelligently artistically and meaningfully change keys" where "modulate" appears)...
And anyways, if we WERE to debate my comment about Novembre, it would all boil down to this:
Diehard Opethian- "Oh yeah, well who cares if they use contrapuntal techniques? Opeth is more beautiful and creative and Mikael has a better dirty vocal!"
Diehard Novembrian- "Oh yeah, well who cares if Mikael has a better dirty vocal? Novembre is more beautiful and creative and use contrapuntal techniques!"
I think I should say this: perhaps Opeth does not modulate from key to key. They simply use chord progressions to get there. Does that make sense? (insert word "intelligently artistically and meaningfully change keys" where "modulate" appears)...
And anyways, if we WERE to debate my comment about Novembre, it would all boil down to this:
Diehard Opethian- "Oh yeah, well who cares if they use contrapuntal techniques? Opeth is more beautiful and creative and Mikael has a better dirty vocal!"
Diehard Novembrian- "Oh yeah, well who cares if Mikael has a better dirty vocal? Novembre is more beautiful and creative and use contrapuntal techniques!"
Of My Darkest Hour
In The Distance...
I've been playing for one year...I can;t read music, i don't undersand theory, I don't care. I learn opeth songs and pradctice them up to speed and have fun!!!! It's all that its about man...for me at least
DisTortorous
In Need of Self-Discovery
More bullshit. Non sequitur? I had to look that one up.
If this continues, I suppose I'll just wave my white flag and move on.
If this continues, I suppose I'll just wave my white flag and move on.
Misanthrope
Latin, NOT Mexican.
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
hmm this thread has made for quite an enlightening read, thanks alot. Probably the most intelligent thing I've seen around here in a while.
Wish I could join in the conversation, but my theory knowledge just isn't quite up there... (even though I'm getting most of what you say).
Wish I could join in the conversation, but my theory knowledge just isn't quite up there...
(even though I'm getting most of what you say).
ControlledChaos
Unbleeding
DisTortorous
In Need of Self-Discovery
Music theory, almost took that class...Too many odd and long terms to not care about I guess. I just involve myself in music, I don't like turning it into a science and brutalizing it, as many of you here have done.
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
What do you mean by 'turning it into a science?'... music is based around these things, we aren't simply applying them. What you hear in music isn't just 'there'... there are basic guidelines set down and music operates in that way... as say the laws of physics apply to all of us.
Some people overdo it, maybe that's what he means. Where you do stuff in music just for the sake of doing it or because you think you're supposed to, not because it sounds especially good. I know nothing though, so I have no idea when something changes key in a proper progression or when it's just done by ear, or just why a song with modulation would feel different than one without.
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
I don't either. But I'm very interested in finding out. I like to know how things work, and not just simply to work them. But I suppose that's just me (and the others that are into theory).
The birth of the riff was actually somewhere in the evolution of jazz - Miles Davis is a riff master - it's just that the riffs take on a different, and some would say simpler, form in blues and in metal. More progressive metal, like Opeth, uses riffs that are in complex time signatures or are chromatic (possibly atonal) in nature, but still the idea is the same. One riff flows into the next riff, and the music becomes a tapestry of musical textures - kind of like quilting
Metal is structured, and especially metal as complex and sophisticated as Opeth - it has to be. The structure enables the band to sort of melt into one single unit, which isn't really always the case in jazz. The disadvantage is that there is less room for improv, but the band becomes the "artist" instead of each individual player being an 'artist.' They're still artists individually, but they've made sort of an unspoken agreement to unify and so we speak of "Opeth" like a single person.
As far as modality and keys, riffs make this a very complex issue to answer. Even in my own music (which is nowhere near as sophisticated as Opeth) I find myself playing in and out of harmonic minor into a blues run and then i finish with mixolydian - whatever sounds good over each chord fragment or group of notes is what gets played. in a sense, metal musicians are "forced" into certain melodic avenues (they might have two or three choices at a given moment) where jazz players have a whole lot more open to them melodically a lot of the time.
Metal is structured, and especially metal as complex and sophisticated as Opeth - it has to be. The structure enables the band to sort of melt into one single unit, which isn't really always the case in jazz. The disadvantage is that there is less room for improv, but the band becomes the "artist" instead of each individual player being an 'artist.' They're still artists individually, but they've made sort of an unspoken agreement to unify and so we speak of "Opeth" like a single person.
As far as modality and keys, riffs make this a very complex issue to answer. Even in my own music (which is nowhere near as sophisticated as Opeth) I find myself playing in and out of harmonic minor into a blues run and then i finish with mixolydian - whatever sounds good over each chord fragment or group of notes is what gets played. in a sense, metal musicians are "forced" into certain melodic avenues (they might have two or three choices at a given moment) where jazz players have a whole lot more open to them melodically a lot of the time.
DisTortorous
In Need of Self-Discovery
I mean that by taking the music apart in the fashion that some people do here is overwhelming, you don't need to think SO hard about it! You need to just listen to music, to play it. If you're writing jazz or classical maybe then theory is quite important but with good old heavy metal? That's about having fun man...yeah...
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
I get what you're coming at... but even in metal, more often than not, everything comes from somewhere. There is almost always a reason why whatever you hear is there... and I'm very interested in knowing what that is ... so please people, talk on, I'm still listening
... so please people, talk on, I'm still listening Who says it's about need? And who's thinking hard about it?
We need to do what?? That's an idiot's dogma. And idiots should be shot. There's nothing wrong with theory for theories sake, and theory does not corrupt and/or exclude a simple enjoyment of the music. It's an activity in itself, for the purpose, as a matter of fact, of appreciating art at a higher depth. Unfortunately, you think in black and white terms, probably because you're an idiot!
Originally posted by Moonlapse
I get what you're coming at... but even in metal, more often than not, everything comes from somewhere. There is almost always a reason why whatever you hear is there... and I'm very interested in knowing what that is
Cool, man. Now if only the damn musicians on this board would be more forthcoming!
cheers
Misanthrope
Latin, NOT Mexican.
I agree,theory is not a "necesity" for listeners but for musicians, is stupid not to learn theory on prupose, its just a tool that can help you write music and you should use all the tools that are avaible to you to come up with your best without limiting yourself.
And there is also nothing wrong with educated listeners, all musicians are and it helps you to get some ideas and inspiration from other people. In short you dont have to discover all music and its particularities by yourself, you can learn a bit ( or a lot ) of this and that and focus your time on expressing yourself, not discovering mechanisms.
And there is also nothing wrong with educated listeners, all musicians are and it helps you to get some ideas and inspiration from other people. In short you dont have to discover all music and its particularities by yourself, you can learn a bit ( or a lot ) of this and that and focus your time on expressing yourself, not discovering mechanisms.
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
I think Mikael replying to this thread could clear up alot of this... as far as Opeth's music is concerned anyway.
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