A question for the record industry folks...

[Jasonic]

Zod - To your point, but even simpler, once downloaded, how many will go back to purchase a physical copy? People who download it are folks who listen to MP3 players (and I suppose the few who will listen on their PCs). Though once you have it, unless you are a die hard fan, what's the attraction of paying $15 for a physical copy?

Just being honest. I am not saying this to be a saint, but I can 100% honestly say I have NEVER EVER illegally downloaded a CD.

 

[MEGALOUD]

Didn't read all the dialog on this one, but suffice to say, it's why I sign 98% if my agreements for the world now.

 

[Justin G]

Zod - To your point, but even simpler, once downloaded, how many will go back to purchase a physical copy? People who download it are folks who listen to MP3 players (and I suppose the few who will listen on their PCs). Though once you have it, unless you are a die hard fan, what's the attraction of paying $15 for a physical copy?

Just being honest. I am not saying this to be a saint, but I can 100% honestly say I have NEVER EVER illegally downloaded a CD.

I receive a fair amount of albums in MP3 format for review purposes, and tend to buy physical copies of the ones I really liked. A good chunk of what I'll be buying at ProgPower falls in that category. I'm a collector though, so I realize I'm probably the exception to the rule.

 

[General Zod]

Zod - To your point, but even simpler, once downloaded, how many will go back to purchase a physical copy?

I have no idea. However, I suspect a fair number of people use downloading to preview what they want to purchase.

Didn't read all the dialog on this one, but suffice to say, it's why I sign 98% if my agreements for the world now.

Meaning you control the release dates in each region?

 

[Jasonic]

I have no idea. However, I suspect a fair number of people use downloading to preview what they want to purchase.

But if they downloaded the album and ripped it to their portable players, aside for collection purposes, what would be the incentive to go back out and pay $15 for the physical CD?

I have to be honest, I know a LOT of people who illegally download (Don't worry - no one will be called out. It's a personal choice) There is VERY little intent on ever purchasing that CD once downloaded, even if they love it.

 

[Jasonic]

I receive a fair amount of albums in MP3 format for review purposes, and tend to buy physical copies of the ones I really liked. A good chunk of what I'll be buying at ProgPower falls in that category. I'm a collector though, so I realize I'm probably the exception to the rule.

That's cool.
I consider my CDs to be part of a collection, that unfortunately doesn't grow as expotentially as years gone by.

 

[skyrefuge]

Most people who download torrents, probably check the torrent sites daily.

Maybe. I wonder how many people do that though. I used to, but don't anymore. It just became too much work every day and made me end up with way too much music to listen to. Now I only seek stuff out when I have something else pushing me to do so. As we know, many people here, some of the most dedicated music fans you'll ever find, have never downloaded anything, ever.

On top of that, among the daily torrent-watchers, I wonder how what percentage buy the stuff they like anyway. I know you do, and I do (did), and we know other people who do, and I think plenty of other people do. But I could very well be biased, naturally thinking that my behavior is fairly "normal", while in fact it could be very rare. After all, most at this board seem to think that we're extreme rarities, and I bet some of them don't even believe that we're telling the truth about buying the stuff we like. Who's right?

So yeah, the point is that I have no idea, and I'm just making guesses based on extremely limited visibility and anecdotes, which is a horrible way to draw conclusions about anything.

I've always thought that labels should release albums for electronic sale immediately when promos are sent out. This would be a more complete solution to any lost sales than aligning the physical release dates, because it would also cover leaks that would happen before the album is released in *any* territory. There would never be an excuse to download an album without paying for it. However, I've been informed that this is apparently not done because "first week sales" is a very important metric in the industry, and because they don't want to make their physical distributors angry by undercutting them. Given that lack of interest in overturning the "old ways" to solve this larger, clearer problem, it's not surprising to me that labels/artists haven't tried bring an end to a subset of that problem, the skewed physical releases.

Neil

 

[Kong]

We have struggled with this question as well. We often knew many months in
advance that the release dates were going to be different. Knowing the issues
with illegal downloading, labels lose credibility when they allow these things
to not only happen in the first place...but seem to ignore the obvious and fix
the damn problem. How tough can it be?...Not very tough at all imop.

I also suspect that it becomes a money issue. Releasing cd's at different times
allows a certain amount of cash flow for the labels to advertise, press product
and distribute without putting all their eggs in one basket at one time, thus
causing some chaos with their operating capital and cash flow.

AFM did a great job of releasing our latest CD "FESTIVAL" to the press
in advance while preventing it from hitting the illegal download sites. I surfed the
internet every day up until the actual release date and could not find the cd
anywhere. That was refreshing indeed.

Another explanation I was told was the Euro releases are generally first because
the cost factor involved makes it cheaper for Euro fans to buy the American release
rather than the Euro-store bought or online retailer. So, their theory is that if we
release all regions at the same time, the Euro customer will buy the US release cheaper
and in the end cause the label to lose money.

Our cost to buy our own CD's to sell at shows is nearly $7.00 Euro or about $9.00 US!
You can buy major releases at Best Buy for $10.00 plus tax.

In the end, they have not only lost touch with the consumer, but labels continue to
give music fans many options to owning the bands music for FREE! They created this
mess, and it will continue. The question is WHY?

 

[General Zod]

But if they downloaded the album and ripped it to their portable players, aside for collection purposes, what would be the incentive to go back out and pay $15 for the physical CD?

I suspect there are four possible incentives:

1. Collector
2. Want a high quality rip (320 Kbps or FLAC)
3. Morality /Legality
4. To support the artist/scene

 

[General Zod]

I've always thought that labels should release albums for electronic sale immediately when promos are sent out.

In my mind, the entire concept of promos is fairly antiquated anyway.

It use to be that promos had to go out months ahead of time, to align with the lead times required by print media, so the release of the music coincided with the release of a set of given publications. However, are people still buying music based on print reviews? I suspect anyone who's buying CDs based on reviews, is buying them from what they read on the web.

Written reviews once served the purpose of informing the reader about the music. Why is that even necessary with MySpace, band official home pages, and label pages?

 

[nomisofsiman]

In my mind, the entire concept of promos is fairly antiquated anyway.

It use to be that promos had to go out months ahead of time, to align with the lead times required by print media, so the release of the music coincided with the release of a set of given publications. However, are people still buying music based on print reviews? I suspect anyone who's buying CDs based on reviews, is buying them from what they read on the web.

Written reviews once served the purpose of informing the reader about the music. Why is that even necessary with MySpace, band official home pages, and label pages?

I sort of disagree here. While I think in today's age that reviews alone don't help in someone buying a disc, they do help get someone interested. When fans see rave reviews of a new release, they will listen to some of the songs on myspace or youtube. If they agree, they'll buy it.

 

[Harvester]

I agree with Zod. In this day and age, there is no reason why you cannot simply put the album online in streaming format and issue a password to listen to it that expires after a set number of listens. You can track who listens, etc that way. There is plenty of lead time for online reviews AND print reviews that way.

However, the problem is not just the record labels, but some of the larger antiquated print magazines. Some have specificed that unless they receive a reviewable copy, they will not print a review. There are some lazy ass journalists out there. All it takes is one band to piss them off and the rest on the record label or management roster will fell the affects.

 

[Pelata]

I suspect there are four possible incentives:

1. Collector
2. Want a high quality rip (320 Kbps or FLAC)
3. Morality /Legality
4. To support the artist/scene

This will always apply to the Metal scene, as well as any other underground type of music. There will always be collector-geeks in Metal, there will always be small labels filling that need...but at the same time, I can see pressings getting smaller and things being more limited as time goes by...if you miss the first 1,000 or 5,000 then you're out of luck and have to get it used or digital...that will become more common, I think.

But that has nothing to do with release dates, so back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

[General Zod]

I sort of disagree here. While I think in today's age that reviews alone don't help in someone buying a disc, they do help get someone interested. When fans see rave reviews of a new release, they will listen to some of the songs on myspace or youtube. If they agree, they'll buy it.

I suppose this is true of someone who peruses review sites or magazines. However, it seems like Metal discussion forums are a better mechanism for discovering these artists.

However, the problem is not just the record labels, but some of the larger antiquated print magazines. Some have specificed that unless they receive a reviewable copy, they will not print a review. There are some lazy ass journalists out there. All it takes is one band to piss them off and the rest on the record label or management roster will fell the affects.

Ironically, print magazines, for better than worse, are becoming equally as antiquated.

This will always apply to the Metal scene, as well as any other underground type of music. There will always be collector-geeks in Metal, there will always be small labels filling that need...but at the same time, I can see pressings getting smaller and things being more limited as time goes by...if you miss the first 1,000 or 5,000 then you're out of luck and have to get it used or digital...that will become more common, I think.

You're probably right. Before the CD disappears altogether, we'll probably see limited pressings and such, as part of the physical format's last dying breath.

 

[dcowboys311]

Promos are still relevant for radio.

I find that most review sites lag a bit behind the good metal forums...

 

[Pelata]

Promos are still relevant for radio.

Not really...what you hear being played on radio are digital copies...no big stations play CDs anymore.

 

[dcowboys311]

Not really...what you hear being played on radio are digital copies...no big stations play CDs anymore.

Not true.

Who sends out the digital copies before the album even leaks? Are those not 'promos'?

We receive and spin CDs. Not from the big labels, but from smaller ones.

 

[AngraRULES]

Not really...what you hear being played on radio are digital copies...no big stations play CDs anymore.

You'd be surprised...

 

[Pelata]

Not true.

Who sends out the digital copies before the album even leaks? Are those not 'promos'?

We receive and spin CDs. Not from the big labels, but from smaller ones.

OK, Mr. Semantics ...I assumed you meant physical promos which I know for a fact have decresed greatly. I know digital promos exist and go out and I also know that most of the large, coprorate radio facilities utilize much more digital now as opposed to physical CDs. The songs/playlists are stored on servers, programmed, and played with very little involvment from the DJ.

The fact that you spin CDs "Not from the big labels, but from smaller ones" is fine and dandy. It's also a sign of "smaller" labels not being as integrated into digital promo distribution as larger ones.

 

[General Zod]

For instance, the new Kamelot has not leaked. However, I fully expect to see it available on the torrent sites on the day of the Japanese release.

The day before. I forgot that these things arrive in some stores the day before the release date.

As Milt pointed out in another thread, the latest Angra also leaked the day before its Japanese release. I'm guessing between 10% and 30% of the Kamelot fans will be singing along with the new songs, but they can't make the new disc available at the festival because it would hurt the SoundScan numbers. While I plan to buy the disc the week it's released, to help support the band, this current marketing model is so horribly broken, it defies description.